Is my friend's race preventing her from finding decent partners?

[Harriet_the_Spry]

I grew up in the midwest, and discussed inter-racial dating with some young adult guys at that time (about 15-20 years ago). There was a sense in which non-white women just weren’t on their dating radar screen, like **Fuzzy Dunlop **reports. It wasn’t associated with any racial hatred, but more of an invisibility thing. Minority male/ white female dating was very common, but the reverse was much, much less common. I don’t think she’s making that aspect up. With enough research, you could probably find informative data about interracial marriages in the area that would shed some light.

There’s also the fact that minority women graduate from college and grad school at much higher rates than minority men. With the tendency of women to want to date/marry “up,” all high-achieving minority women face a conflict to some extent.

I’m not sure she needs to flee KC, unless she wants to for other reasons. But my advice would be 1) don’t waste any time on the non-decent ones she seems to be attracting. That doesn’t mean be extremely picky, but if he doesn’t pass a basic sniff test, don’t waste the time. 2) Find ways to hang out with people who didn’t grow up in the midwest. Staying in touch with her grad school community, getting involved with organizations that welcome newcomers, etc. may be ways to meet people with more open minds.

[gigi]

@Diamonds02

No learning disability, just extremely naive. Moreso than me, which I didn’t know was possible, lol. But, how can one tell just by looking at her?

She’s not one of those people who goes out on a date, and can’t get a second one. She almost never makes it to that point in the first place. When we go out, she hardly ever gets “checked out” or looked at. And with mutual friends, they always say that she isn’t their type, whatever that means.

She’s tried everywhere. Church, school, sports teams and work.

People might be able to see her naivete and additionally, her desperation, in her body language. I don’t mean “desperation” in a mean way, just that if she’s obsessive about finding someone, that neediness could be coming across in how she presents herself.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

I strongly suspect you’ll find that losers attract her, not the other way around.

I know several (white) girls with the same problem.

[CrazyCatLady]

@Diamonds02

I am quite confident that she IS attractive, on a scale 1-10, I’d say 7. Not supermodel looks, but is attractive more than the average bear. She modeled all the way until age 14 (and she still looks 14). She does get hit on by other attractive men and women sometimes, but they are “off”. The few who aren’t off, are really unattractive.

Is she an objective 7, or a friendship goggles 7? I mean, I was an attractive child too, and my friends would generally rate me as a 7 as an adult. But objectively speaking, I’m a 5. Utterly, utterly average-looking. When we like people, they look better to us, even if they’re our non-preferred sex. The more we like them, the better-looking we tend to think they are.

And if she looks like jailbait, no non-perv her age is going to approach her without knowing how old she really is. Hell, a lot of guys (and gals) her age won’t be interested even knowing how old she really is, because they don’t want to look like pervs. This is also going to affect her approaching other people, and make men leery–too many horror stories out there about people getting in legal messes because they got involved with an underage girl with a fake ID. This would complicate her dating life regardless of her race.

I have to ask, though, what constitutes “classy and attractive” anyhow? Especially the “classy” part? I know lots of reasonably attractive guys who would be great partners for someone they were in sync with–pleasant, hardworking, funny, reasonably intelligent, and very kind–but I wouldn’t describe any of them as classy. Unless you mean it in the sense of not being trashy, in which case they got class out the ass. But if you mean it in the sense we usually use classy, in the sense of refinement and elegance and generally being tony, they really don’t qualify.

And if she means it in the second sense, that’s going to winnow out an awful lot of perfectly decent prospects. It would mean that she’s looking for someone who’s not only smart and ambitious and fun and attractive and under a certain age and potentially okay with interracial dating and okay with dating someone who looks barely legal (all of which is a pretty tall order anyway), but also fancy. That’s going to be an uphill climb, no matter how fantabulous you are, no matter the color of your skin.

[Diamonds02]

@Fuzzy_Dunlop

Well I’m a bit biased on the youthfulness but I think she should examine that more closely. When **I **was in high school I was (one time) mistaken for the new assistant principal and (routinely) questioned about being in the building without a visitor’s pass. I’m 25, but if I dated a 26 year old who looked 16-18 it would look like a 14-16 year age difference. Honestly though I think even men who look 25-27 would be uncomfortable with some who looks 16.

Maybe your friend could try to look a little older? I find that being sleep deprived until your eyes look old and tired adds years like wonders.

Or I keep seeing women my age wearing pretty dresses with these god awful fine knit cardigans that make them look 50. Maybe try that.

Ok, I’m sorry. I don’t have any actual tips look a bit older.

I’ve tried to piece it together and one theory I’ve come up with is that black women are larger and curvier on average than women at large. My best guess is that this is what people are getting at. In my experience they’re not very good at articulating what they really mean so some guess work is required.

I can sympathize because as I mentioned earlier I’m attracted to very svelte women. Big curvy women of any race, black included, just don’t really do it for me. The thing is, of course, there are black women of all shapes and sizes. So I agree completely it’s really bizarre to write off an entire race as unattractive.

I will tell her that she needs to dress older. I didn’t think that was a factor, but the way you explained it, made a lot of sense.

She is not over weight at all, and is thin. She is not bottom heavy, but top heavy if you know what I mean. This is another reason why I am surprised that she doesn’t get a lot of attention. Aren’t most dudes into thin women with large breasts?

@Harriet_the_Spry

I grew up in the midwest, and discussed inter-racial dating with some young adult guys at that time (about 15-20 years ago). There was a sense in which non-white women just weren’t on their dating radar screen, like **Fuzzy Dunlop **reports. It wasn’t associated with any racial hatred, but more of an invisibility thing. Minority male/ white female dating was very common, but the reverse was much, much less common. I don’t think she’s making that aspect up. With enough research, you could probably find informative data about interracial marriages in the area that would shed some light.

There’s also the fact that minority women graduate from college and grad school at much higher rates than minority men. With the tendency of women to want to date/marry “up,” all high-achieving minority women face a conflict to some extent.

I’m not sure she needs to flee KC, unless she wants to for other reasons. But my advice would be 1) don’t waste any time on the non-decent ones she seems to be attracting. That doesn’t mean be extremely picky, but if he doesn’t pass a basic sniff test, don’t waste the time. 2) Find ways to hang out with people who didn’t grow up in the midwest. Staying in touch with her grad school community, getting involved with organizations that welcome newcomers, etc. may be ways to meet people with more open minds.

Where would she find a concentration of these men from out of town?

ON a related note, she has a lot less trouble attracting decent men from other countries.

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I strongly suspect you’ll find that losers attract her, not the other way around.

I know several (white) girls with the same problem.

I have the same problem, and know many other chicks with the same problem, but we also attract men/women who aren’t losers.

I wonder why many losers approach so aggressively. If I deemed myself a loser, I would be the opposite, I would be scared to approach women fearing that I would be judged and rejected. I know I"m going off a tangent here, but that seems like a good SDMB discussion to start up!

@CrazyCatLady

Is she an objective 7, or a friendship goggles 7? I mean, I was an attractive child too, and my friends would generally rate me as a 7 as an adult. But objectively speaking, I’m a 5. Utterly, utterly average-looking. When we like people, they look better to us, even if they’re our non-preferred sex. The more we like them, the better-looking we tend to think they are.

And if she looks like jailbait, no non-perv her age is going to approach her without knowing how old she really is. Hell, a lot of guys (and gals) her age won’t be interested even knowing how old she really is, because they don’t want to look like pervs. This is also going to affect her approaching other people, and make men leery–too many horror stories out there about people getting in legal messes because they got involved with an underage girl with a fake ID. This would complicate her dating life regardless of her race.

I have to ask, though, what constitutes “classy and attractive” anyhow? Especially the “classy” part? I know lots of reasonably attractive guys who would be great partners for someone they were in sync with–pleasant, hardworking, funny, reasonably intelligent, and very kind–but I wouldn’t describe any of them as classy. Unless you mean it in the sense of not being trashy, in which case they got class out the ass. But if you mean it in the sense we usually use classy, in the sense of refinement and elegance and generally being tony, they really don’t qualify.

And if she means it in the second sense, that’s going to winnow out an awful lot of perfectly decent prospects. It would mean that she’s looking for someone who’s not only smart and ambitious and fun and attractive and under a certain age and potentially okay with interracial dating and okay with dating someone who looks barely legal (all of which is a pretty tall order anyway), but also fancy. That’s going to be an uphill climb, no matter how fantabulous you are, no matter the color of your skin.

Again, she attracts many attractive men, maybe I didn’t make that clear enough. But there tends to be something “wrong” with them. The other day some guy looked like Shemar Moore hit on her, thuggish (gold teeth and scary tattoos) but obviously attractive. I assume physically attractive people tend be attracted to other physically attractive people (and has been proven by research). I don’t think that looks are her problem.

I actually asked her this, she defines classy as “having an education, dressing well (she said they don’t have to be super preppy, but NOT raggy), ambitious, and having good social skills”.

[gigi]

OK, Shemar Moore is gorgeous. What does “scary” tattoos mean? How do you know that guy wasn’t successful, ambitious, socially adept? Did you give him a chance beyond making a judgment about his teeth and tattoos?

[Mijin]

Well, maybe no-one’s gonna say it, but I will: her racial appearance may be a factor.

It doesn’t require people to be racist per se, just the product of habit and expectation.

I don’t consider it necessarily racist to say “in my community, I rarely meet hispanic women that I can relate to, so I’m less likely to approach a woman that appears hispanic”.

I can sympathise with your friend: I’m mixed race and I love intelligent women. However, trashy girls seem much more likely to notice me.

[Diamonds02]

@gigi

OK, Shemar Moore is gorgeous. What does “scary” tattoos mean? How do you know that guy wasn’t successful, ambitious, socially adept? Did you give him a chance beyond making a judgment about his teeth and tattoos?

He could’ve been. It wasn’t so much of the tattoos designs themselves, it was the way were applied. They were on his neck, hands, on a small one on his lower face. Coming from someone who is into tattoos, I found it creepy.

[Gary_T]

CrazyCatLady’s discussion of “classy” reminds me of the following story.

---

A store that sells husbands has recently opened in New York. The store has become very popular, but there are a few simple rules:

Women may only enter the store ONCE to make a purchase. There are 6 floors, and the attributes of the men for sale on each floor are detailed outside. Although you can choose a man from any floor, once you have entered a particular floor you must make a purchase there. You cannot go back down, except when you exit the building - and after that you may not return.

So, a woman goes to the Husband Store to find a lifelong partner. On the first floor the sign outside reads: “Floor 1 - These men have jobs and love the Lord.” She moves on up.

On the next floor the sign reads: “Floor 2 - These men have jobs, love the Lord and love kids.” She keeps going.

The sign outside the third floor reads: “Floor 3 - These men have jobs, love the Lord, love kids and are extremely good-looking.” Still she moves on up.

Next she sees the sign: “Floor 4 - These men have jobs, love the Lord, love kids, are extremely good-looking and help with the housework.” Excited now, again she proceeds to the next floor.

The sign outside the fifth floor reads: “Floor 5 - These men have jobs, love the Lord, love kids, are extremely good-looking, help with the housework, and have a strong romantic streak.” Although tempted to make her purchase from this floor, she can’t wait to see what’s available on the sixth.

Reaching for the door-handle to enter the floor area, she notices the sign outside. “Floor 6 - You are visitor number 4,634,289 to this floor. There are no men on this floor. This floor exists simply to prove that women are impossible to please. Good-bye.”

---

Now, the above (yes, it’s a joke) may not be relevant to your friend’s personality and situation, but’s it’s a good reminder that sometimes we can set the bar too high. Plenty of good folk (of both sexes) get passed by because they aren’t perceived as hot enough or hip enough, or don’t dress stylishly enough, or are too nerdy, or aren’t the life of the party, etc. As mentioned above, there’s a significant difference between “unambitious” = doesn’t want to accept responsibility or have a job, and “unambitious” = doesn’t aspire to set the world afire or get filthy rich. Likewise, as mentioned, there’s a difference between “classy” = shows reasonable respect for oneself and others, and “classy” = has the taste and trappings of high society. Just some things to consider.

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

@Diamonds02

I have the same problem, and know many other chicks with the same problem, but we also attract men/women who aren’t losers.

I wonder why many losers approach so aggressively. If I deemed myself a loser, I would be the opposite, I would be scared to approach women fearing that I would be judged and rejected. I know I"m going off a tangent here, but that seems like a good SDMB discussion to start up!

I’m sticking with my age theory - at least as a partial explanation. My college roommate’s first job was working as a life skills counselor for wards of the court who were aging out of the system. She worked specifically with 18-21 year olds who lived in little group homes hidden throughout the town with other majority-aged orphans. We used to talk in general terms about how the absolute worst guys - drug dealers, petty criminals, etc - would visit the group homes and literally prey on these vulnerable young women.

I eventually moved just a block away from one of them and we joked that I’d always have convenient access to vulnerable barely legal women with abandonment issues. But, it’s a joke. Because only losers go after barely legal women.

I’m not saying your friend is vulnerable or emotionally damaged. She’s not even young, she just looks it. But it doesn`t seem surprising that someone who looks very young would attract a lot of losers. Does she do any better in situations where it’s obvious she’s in her mid 20s?

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

@Mijin

Well, maybe no-one’s gonna say it, but I will: her racial appearance may be a factor.

I said that!

[Gary_T]

@Diamonds02

Aren’t most dudes into thin women with large breasts?

To some degree, yes. A lot of men would find that appealing.
With real-world complications, though, it can bring a form of “the curse of beauty.” Some of the shyer “good guys” may figure they don’t stand a chance and not even try. And it can attract some “players” who are more interested in a conquest or a trophy than in a person. Sometimes it seems like you can’t win.

All I can say is that a lot of good people do end up meeting each other and developing satisfying relationships, but often they endure years of frustration before that happens. Little comfort, I know, but please do take some comfort. It is entirely possible, and reasonably likely, that things will change with time.

[Diamonds02]

@Gary_T

CrazyCatLady’s discussion of “classy” reminds me of the following story.

---

A store that sells husbands has recently opened in New York. The store has become very popular, but there are a few simple rules:

Women may only enter the store ONCE to make a purchase. There are 6 floors, and the attributes of the men for sale on each floor are detailed outside. Although you can choose a man from any floor, once you have entered a particular floor you must make a purchase there. You cannot go back down, except when you exit the building - and after that you may not return.

So, a woman goes to the Husband Store to find a lifelong partner. On the first floor the sign outside reads: “Floor 1 - These men have jobs and love the Lord.” She moves on up.

On the next floor the sign reads: “Floor 2 - These men have jobs, love the Lord and love kids.” She keeps going.

The sign outside the third floor reads: “Floor 3 - These men have jobs, love the Lord, love kids and are extremely good-looking.” Still she moves on up.

Next she sees the sign: “Floor 4 - These men have jobs, love the Lord, love kids, are extremely good-looking and help with the housework.” Excited now, again she proceeds to the next floor.

The sign outside the fifth floor reads: “Floor 5 - These men have jobs, love the Lord, love kids, are extremely good-looking, help with the housework, and have a strong romantic streak.” Although tempted to make her purchase from this floor, she can’t wait to see what’s available on the sixth.

Reaching for the door-handle to enter the floor area, she notices the sign outside. “Floor 6 - You are visitor number 4,634,289 to this floor. There are no men on this floor. This floor exists simply to prove that women are impossible to please. Good-bye.”

---

Now, the above (yes, it’s a joke) may not be relevant to your friend’s personality and situation, but’s it’s a good reminder that sometimes we can set the bar too high. Plenty of good folk (of both sexes) get passed by because they aren’t perceived as hot enough or hip enough, or don’t dress stylishly enough, or are too nerdy, or aren’t the life of the party, etc. As mentioned above, there’s a significant difference between “unambitious” = doesn’t want to accept responsibility or have a job, and “unambitious” = doesn’t aspire to set the world afire or get filthy rich. Likewise, as mentioned, there’s a difference between “classy” = shows reasonable respect for oneself and others, and “classy” = has the taste and trappings of high society. Just some things to consider.

Oh, she’s not one of those gold-digging types. She’s just looking for clean-cut guys with an education, and a somewhat decent job. The jobs don’t have to be investment banking for high profile law, just a job that pays his bills (so she doesn’t have to pay them) and offers benefits. I understand her frustration. If she’s a clean cut chick with a nice education, etc. why can’t she attract the same?

@Fuzzy_Dunlop

I’m sticking with my age theory - at least as a partial explanation. My college roommate’s first job was working as a life skills counselor for wards of the court who were aging out of the system. She worked specifically with 18-21 year olds who lived in little group homes hidden throughout the town with other majority-aged orphans. We used to talk in general terms about how the absolute worst guys - drug dealers, petty criminals, etc - would visit the group homes and literally prey on these vulnerable young women.

I eventually moved just a block away from one of them and we joked that I’d always have convenient access to vulnerable barely legal women with abandonment issues. But, it’s a joke. Because only losers go after barely legal women.

I’m not saying your friend is vulnerable or emotionally damaged. She’s not even young, she just looks it. But it doesn`t seem surprising that someone who looks very young would attract a lot of losers. Does she do any better in situations where it’s obvious she’s in her mid 20s?

I would consider church (she belongs to a 20somethings group) and grad school two of those places, still no luck.

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

@Diamonds02

Oh, she’s not one of those gold-digging types. She’s just looking for clean-cut guys with an education, and a somewhat decent job. The jobs don’t have to be investment banking for high profile law, just a job that pays his bills (so she doesn’t have to pay them) and offers benefits. I understand her frustration. If she’s a clean cut chick with a nice education, etc. why can’t she attract the same?

“Classy” probably isn`t appropriate diction then. I can sympathize with your friend though. Wanting someone who in broad strokes is in a similar position in life to you doesn’t sound particularly picky to elitist to me.

@Diamonds02

I would consider church (she belongs to a 20somethings group) and grad school two of those places, still no luck.

So were there a lot of “losers” in grad school or in church group? Was that just a total dry spell or were there people interested in her there but she thought they were losers?

[Diamonds02]

@Fuzzy_Dunlop

So were there a lot of “losers” in grad school or in church group? Was that just a total dry spell or were there people interested in her there but she thought they were losers?

No, they were’nt losers at all, a lot of decent guys there, but none of them appeared to be interested in her.

[Beware_of_Doug]

Grad school isn’t the place or the time to start a relationship. If you’re doing it right, you have neither the time nor the energy for a meaningful social life.

[Fuzzy_Dunlop]

@Diamonds02

No, they were’nt losers at all, a lot of decent guys there, but none of them appeared to be interested in her.

Did she ever approach any of them? Has she ever dealt with legitimate rejection that might give her a clue why a guy wasn’t interested in her?

How about on a platonic level, does she make friends with guys who objectively meet her criteria for ‘classy’?

[Diamonds02]

@Fuzzy_Dunlop

Did she ever approach any of them? Has she ever dealt with legitimate rejection that might give her a clue why a guy wasn’t interested in her?

How about on a platonic level, does she make friends with guys who objectively meet her criteria for ‘classy’?

No, she has not approach anyone, she just noticed that those guys approached other girls.

ON a platonic level it depends. Some of the guys she gets along with, others flat out hate her. Things get real interesting right here…

[Markxxx]

We all would like to think that there’s some reason why “WE” are special and can’t find what everyone else has. If something happens more than once or twice, it’s you. Believe me, it’s you.

And I’m no different, I can’t find anyone. I have people say “Mark I can’t believe a guy like you can’t get a date.” “Would you like to go out with me.” “Oh GOD no.”

People say I’m to fat or I’m too ugly to find a man. Did you ever go to city hall and see all the fat ugly people getting married? I have and there’s A LOT of them.

If you can’t find anyone, your standards are probably too unique. Not too high but too unique and narrowly defined.

People would say to me “Lower your ‘standards’,” so I did. All that happened is I met a lot of NICE people who I had no attraction to. And then it wasted my time, it made the other person feel bad and kept them from looking for someone who’d like them. In the end would you want to be with someone, who was only with you 'cause you felt you couldn’t do any better. Or you were too lazy and stopped looking.

[msmith537]

Years ago when I was in (a predominantly white) summer camp, one of my cabin-mates asked me if I thought the girls at the inter-camp mixers wouldn’t like him because he was Black. I told him that was ridiculous. There are plenty of reasons not to like him besides being Black.

Seriously though, who knows? I don’t know how diverse Kansas City is. I suspect not very. While “racism” might be too strong a word, there might definitely be some racial bias situation there. But what are you going to do? You can’t change your race any more than I can be 6’3".

@RickJay

If you brought together all the 26-year-olds who were or had been convinced they had some sort of dating curse together, you’d fill New York City and they’d be spilling out into Jersey and Long Island.

What do you mean “if”?

@Diamonds02

I wonder why many losers approach so aggressively. If I deemed myself a loser, I would be the opposite, I would be scared to approach women fearing that I would be judged and rejected. I know I"m going off a tangent here, but that seems like a good SDMB discussion to start up!

Losers don’t deem themselves to be losers. Ever watch a VH1 or MTV reality show? For some reason, they think that being a 34 year old living at home, failing out of community college and blowing all your money (even though you have no job) on booze, Red Bull and tatoos and Ed Hardy clothing is the way to go in life.