Is my friend's race preventing her from finding decent partners?

In My Humble Opinion
81

This, and the other comments about “unambitious” are important, I think. As a 26 year old Latina that can pass for white (although I hate that phrase, and I don’t “pass”), I have the same problem finding people. And I think her excuse is lame. Please note, I know the problem with finding guys I like is myself (well, that, and living in places like Athens, GA).

I attract the same sort of people that she mentions, much more so than the ones I’m attracted to. But like threemae said, expressions of attraction in different places vary. It may be that there are some shy guys attracted to her, and since she doesn’t make a move, they don’t make a move either. And sometimes “classy” guys may be more quiet about their intentions than the cat callers on the street.

And her “unambitious” comment bothers me. I dated someone whom my family (or some of them) would describe as such because he is not a college educated middle class or above man. Nope, but he is loyal to friends, good housekeeper, cooks, cleans, family man to his nuclear and extended family, good friend, etc. Not to mention good lover. :wink: And, unlike some relatives, he has never depended on goverment assistance. And he is not a smartass… And I’m really missing moving.

But seriously, perhaps she should rethink her standards?

82

Maybe her appearance and body language are also obnoxious? It’s a pretty high hurdle to set up that men have to show interest in her before they ever hear her say anything. I, for one, am completely capable of admiring a woman from afar so I can find out if she’s obnoxious or not.

More importantly though, what does it matter? If we successfully diagnosed one of her problems, maybe you should work on how you can help her improve.

It sounds like you’re suggesting men are disinterested before she even speaks, so it can’t be that she has an abrasive personality. But try to deal with the core issue. Eventually she does speak and it’s starting to sound conclusively like it’s turning men off.

83

I’m not sure why some of the examples given of her “naivete” are so obnoxious or annoying (or even demonstrative of being naive). If someone were at a party or bar and not drinking I may too wonder why they were not drinking. Can someone explain why this friend is so lacking in social graces because she isn’t a Cocktail Connoisseur and doesn’t keep up on everyone’s personal lives?

84

You have to read between the lines a little bit. The key is how actual people reacted to her. She picked on a guy for drinking water at a bar and his response was “get this annoying girl away from me”.

That leaves two possibilities:

  1. The guy is a huge asshole
  2. The girl was obnoxious about it.

Could go either way except that we have 3 examples. It’s not anything in particular in the examples, it’s the fact that they’re all reasonably innocuous and in all 3 cases people around her reacted disproportionately negatively.

Women say stupid things about what I’m drinking all the time. It’s never been a negative for me. I really don’t think the ice cream comment was bad and I’d be pissed if my ice cream was getting smaller. The “drinking at parties” thing was a little stupid but I have a hard time imagining being annoyed about it. But, everyone was annoyed, apparently. So I can only conclude this woman has found a way to be very obnoxious.

85

I don’t think we’re given enough information to judge anything or anyone.

But without calling her obnoxious or whatever, I will say that it seems as if she has a hard time making friends with guys, and that’s probably why at least with the white guys, she’s encountering dating difficulties. In my experience, (noncreepy) white guys have rarely made a move on me without them at least being flirty acquaintances for a while first. It takes them a while to either warm up or build up courage or something, I dunno. So if the white guys in her world are anything like the ones in my mine, and she’s having a hard time establishing relationships with them that are prerequisites for asking a non-white woman out, then she’s going to have hard time dating them.

As for the non-white guys, I guess it all depends on where she is looking. Outside the internet, I rarely come across black guys that 1) I would consider dating material and 2) that are attractive enough to get my attention. (The same goes for any men, actually.) So I look online. If she keeps running into duds there, that could be a reflection of the population who has profiles up. If she “approaches” good guys on the internet and still gets ignored, it could be she has a bad pic, misspells too many words (in her profile or email), or is saying the wrong things. Or perhaps is aiming too high.

Obnoxious people seem to find love if they have other traits to mitigate. It seems kind of hasty to diagnose that as her problem.

In sum, it could be a whole bunch of factors at play.

How is the dating pool in KC, anyway?

86

There is no recipe more toxic than ignorant+superior. And yes, it shows on the face, I had a friend like this in college – you could just see her gearing up to judge someone inanely. We don’t speak any more.

Based on the anecdotes related, she may be perfectly intelligent but does not give the appearance of being smart. Instead, it appears she says stupid shit all the time, and doesn’t know you can only insult your friends, not strangers. As a result she’s probably intimidating to the type of shy guy she would actually like being with. Its the brash assholes who are not put off by her brash assholishness.

As far as practical advice, “Playful jabs” as an opening gambit require finesse, a quality it appears she lacks. She should stop trying to flirt with guys by awkwardly insulting them. Open with a sincere inquiry (“what are you drinking”) or at most a self-deprecating remark (“I don’t know that much about hard liquor - what is that?”). Most people like compliments, she should give it a whirl.

87

A lot of red flags are going off for me. I don’t think that Kansas City is any more racist/less diverse than the podunk town I grew up in in central PA. I am biracial, and would put myself at about a 7, and never had problems attracting men of all different races (and dating them) - that is, once I came out of my very shy shell and became confident. There is a fine line between being aggressive and simply confident in the way one looks. It could be this, it could be the vibes she gives off, it could be the family issues. Does she smile a lot? Is she energetic?

Many people have cited the age thing, to which I agree. Maybe some makeup and an older (shorter, bobbed) haircut could help.

I feel like I get hit on a lot more by overzealous guys of different races (black, hispanic, etc), but not white. As far as hispanic guys go, I can say unequivocally that this is cultural - machismo and all. So as for attracting guys she doesn’t like, this comes in droves for many people.

88

There’s a not particularly subtle and rather important distinction between wondering why someone isn’t drinking and asking about it, or Og forbid, accusing someone of being a party pooper because of it. There is no excuse for the party pooper thing. None.

And, of course, there’s a not particularly subtle difference between not keeping up with everyone’s personal lives and what we’re talking about here. When something is well known within a social circle, that means somebody has told her. Now, not remembering that someone is a designated driver or taking meds is one thing, but major things like somebody being pregnant or alcoholic tends to stick with most folks. That she doesn’t remember things like that (especially the alcoholism, and most especially if she’s been to more than one party with any given recovering alcholic) implies that either she simply doesn’t listen when the discussion is about someone else, or she just doesn’t care enough about what’s going on with anyone else’s life to bother retaining such information. Either way, that ain’t good. It makes a person come across as utterly self-absorbed, which is massively unattractive.

That she expects great social skills from a potential partner is kind of snicker-worthy.

89

I think that it’s likely that her race has some effect on things. Not necessarily a huge effect and quite probably in a subtle way, but still a factor.

It also occurs to me that if she looks young and acts naive then that will just reinforce the idea that she is young. Indeed even if they knew she was 26, some people might just not get over how much she seems like a teenager. I think most well-adjusted people generally don’t find teens attractive when you combine looks with personality. It seems to me that just that right there could account for her problems. Most well-adjusted guys would steer clear and the wierdos would make a beeline.

I don’t really know if this is the issue, but maybe it could be.

90

I hadn’t read all the thread when I replied… It’s not her race, it’s her personality. From what you say about her, it seems she lacks some social skills, which would make her annoying. If somebody at a party tells me I’m a party pooper because I don’t drink, I’ll reply they’re the party poopers that spend all the night drinking and not dancing (which is my idea of a party).

“Underestimates challenges”… Is that why she is in grad school? :wink:

91

As a Black dude that just finished grad school in a city that wasn’t chock-full-of Black folks in school/young professionals and single (Boston), I had a lot of friends who fell into this category. But I think I know what your friend’s problem is.

She sounds super-insecure and socially awkward. I have a friend exactly as you describe. She’s not hawt, but she’s pretty, and has a good shape. No problems so far, right? She’s ethnic as well. Bonus, for some guys (who do that whole exotic-race thing, which I think is fucked up, but whatever). She is super smart - hell, she’s a grad student in Cambridge. But she had a fucked up childhood, some real tough times. And she became legendary in our grad program for being… weird. Weird and inappropriate. Sometimes she would say something bizarre to a guy (in an attempt to be funny, I guess) and everyone would talk about it for days.

She even has an example of “cluelessness” much like your friend’s. We were at a restaurant in another city - posh place, French, and the folks that worked there and waited on us were French. So we order, and the bill comes back higher than we expected. It turns out that we were charged because we didn’t specify that we wanted tap water instead of bottled. We were all annoyed about it, but realized that it was the way the restaurant was. This friend of ours made a scene and went on and on about it, until we had to tell her to shut up - yeah, it was annoying, and we all had to put in more than we intended (like two dollars). She responded that she came up without a lot of money and it made her angry… without realizing that many of us grew up working class, too.

So all of the people in our program thought she was kind of off. Naturally, you’re not going to steer any of your friends to someone like that until they get their shit together, and that’s being generous. Most people would just write her off. I’ve seen this friend of mine mature quite a bit but the rep is still there.

I’d also second what some have said upthread. The sad reality is, men of color who are well educated and doing well do have their pick of women oftentimes. But some guys in this category are seriously screwed up - they know they’re a commodity, and they’re man-hos, treat women like crap, play out their jungle fever fantasies… until they come out. I’m generalizing, of course, but I knew a lot of guys like that, and I wouldn’t doubt that they are acting this way to cover something else up.

On the other hand, I do think women of color can get way too caught up in this idea that they have to find a guy who at the moment is doing exactly as well as, if not better, than they are at that time. Look at the demographics - there are a lot more women in graduate school than men, especially among populations of color. Given all the societal challenges that men of color face getting to higher education, it might take them a little longer if they choose to go that route.

A good friend of mine got her degree in business and met a wonderful guy, but at the time he worked at UPS - no college. I know this bothered her at first, but they persisted and got married. They’ve been married about 15 years now, and he ended up getting enough hours for his associate’s degree… he makes good money in his job so he has no plans to go back. She got a master’s and became a teacher. They’re probably the most stable, respectful couple I know. Had she gotten caught up in their educational differences, who knows what might have happened?

This idea of graduate degrees = intelligence, and not having graduate degrees = giving up on life, being a loser, somehow lesser than people with grad degrees, is really stupid and obnoxious. If that vibe comes across from your friend it’s a real turn-off. And I say that as a guy with a doctorate.

The examples you gave of your friend’s cluelessness is actually obnoxiousness. Who over the age of 19 makes fun of someone they don’t know because of the drink they’re drinking?

92

First, it’s good that you haven’t posted a link; that should be completely her own choice.

Second, in my experience, women who seem to attract only losers are absolutely putting out a vibe that encourages the losers and discourages boring and possibly unambitious men. In fact, the word “unambitious” sounds like a code word; does she use that exact word? “Unambitious” could mean, “he might treat me with respect, so to hell with him,” but could also mean “indolent.” Does she use the word indolent?

There are absolutely people out there who will not give her a second glance because of her skin color. Sorry, but that happens. However, in my admittedly parochial experience (NYC and LA), the proportion of men who think that way is not likely to prevent her from finding someone. If that were the case, I suspect she would have moved out of KC long ago for reasons unrelated to dating. Having differently-pigmented skin than the local population can just as easily make her exotic and desirable; if you say she’s got a nice face, it’s difficult for me to see race as a negative.

There are also men who are intimidated by intelligent women, but this should not be a consideration for her, as those men are by definition not who she’s looking for. If she’s losing faith in the basic numbers, please tell her that there are many men out there who don’t have this hangup. I am surrounded by professional women, and generally only encounter men who don’t seem to have a problem with intelligent women, so my perspective might be a little off. Again, I’m in LA, where everyone who didn’t fit in anywhere else in the country ends up.

Also, this is just a minor point, but if you ever encounter someone at a bar who is not drinking, you can be 100% sure that they know that they are at a bar and not drinking. I can’t imagine a scenario in which commenting on that is likely to endear her to a non-toxic person; at best, they’re a designated driver and it means nothing; at worst, they are non-drinkers who are there because that’s where their friends ended up going that night, and they might not want to explain their reasons for not drinking to strangers they meet. In a bar.

The bottom line: it’s been my experience that non-abusive-non-criminal-non-idiot men have much lower standards of attraction than you might think. The highly-coveted secret formula that they/we keep from all women, that I am about to tell you at no small personal risk, is basically: “someone pleasant to talk to and have sex with.” All she has to do is project the messages, “I can be pleasant and am not a psycho,” “I may in fact have sex with you” and “perhaps I will make you a sandwich at some point,” and she’ll have men of quality lined up around the block vying for her attention. These are not trivial qualities (just as “non-idiot” culls many of us from the herd), but they’ll trump “skin color” pretty easily, and they’re things she has some control over. If she hasn’t got these qualities or can’t convincingly mimic them, she’s going to attract a dramatically different pool of possible mates.

93

Wow, that’s quite a list. Socially awkward, too old, unattractive? Uambitious? Is there a chance that maybe she’s just holding out for Brad Pitt? I mean, sounds like she’s got apretty strict definition of the exact man she wants. You could mention to her that there’s something wrong with *all *of us.

I’d humbly suggest that at the tender age of 26, it’s totally fine that she’s not yet Mr. Perfect. I has a long, long string of girlfriends until I met my current one at the age of 30, and we’ve been together 4 years now.

Doesn’t sound like anything to worry about to me.

94

I have a friend who is indian and has the same problem. In her case, it comes down to a combination of factors:

She’s shockingly self-conscious and has a crippling lack of self esteem but she doesn’t show it. For anyone who’s only casually acquainted to her, they don’t pick up on it but anyone who attempts to form a more intimate bond is rebuffed by her inability to open up.

She’s incredibly naive and is usually far too trusting which makes her vunerable to unscrupulous guys taking advantage of her.

She’s awful at flirting and never knows or believes a guy is interested in her. Mainly due to the self-esteem thing.

I think it’s the combination of these three that lead to a situation like that from occurring. Most normal guys will do some initial probing and if there’s no signal of interest, they’ll conclude the girl is not interested and move on. Since my friend is incapable of recognizing the signs of flirting and, when she does, is convinced she’s mistaken, she never sends the appropriate signals back and the normal guys quickly move on. The pushy assholes don’t understand the concept of no and escalate it until it’s obvious to everyone and so these are the only people who pop up on her radar, at which point she has no idea how to get rid of them.

I think the different races thing adds a certain otherworldness which can make guys uncertain. Most guys assume that the reason she’s not interested because she’s a stereotypical indian who won’t date outside of her race and doesn’t participate in western style dating.

95

I second this. When I was younger I took a lot of grief from my friends for liking petite women. There was no way in hell I would date someone who looked young let alone underage.

96

Well, I might wonder too, but I know that it’s not polite to question someone on their reasons for not drinking, so I would know to keep my mouth shut. I might quietly enquire with a mutual friend as to whether there’s any particular reason for the change in behaviour (assuming the person was normally a drinker), but I would never go up to someone and ask them why they aren’t drinking. That’s just rude.

97

You may wonder, but would you assume they were a “party pooper” or mock them for drinking what you thought was water? I hope not.

The “lacking in social grace” part doesn’t come from the fact that she might wonder why someone is not drinking, or not know a lot about different alcohol, but that she seems to be mocking people who don’t drink.

98

Well, at this point we’re all making assumptions based on what Diamonds02 is telling us (which is all we can do). It’s not really clear whether the friend gets up in someone’s face and berates them for not drinking or whether its something she just discusses with her friend. Also, I’m assuming that these other people are at least acquaintances and not random strangers (in which case it would be definitely rude to ask). I don’t know, maybe I have a high tolerance for BS, but I’ve seen/heard people do worse things in social settings to be bent out of place about that.

99

True. The specific acts described are not necessarily in and of themselves problematic. We are making assumptions, as you say, and trying to connect the dots. I think what most here are thinking is that given the reported negative perceptions that some have about the lady in question, the most logical explanation we can formulate is that there is something about her method of interacting with people that they find distasteful. Part of it may be what she chooses to say, and part of it may be how she says it. And presumably, there is a lack of sufficient charm to offset the missteps.

100

In my own personal experience, it’s typically code for “doesn’t pull in enough dough,” though it can also mean “hasn’t got enough higher education.” People who mean someone is indolent/unemployed/without even a GED, they usually just say “lazy.”

EpiGirl, on paper this stuff sounds kind of gauche or abrupt, but no so very, very awful. Especially if you take them individually. But when you put the whole thing together, along with the stated reactions she gets, you get a gestalt that leaves you with a choice of two conclusions.

1.) There is absolutely nothing wrong with this girl’s social skills, she’s charming and gorgeous and great to be around. For this to be true, every single one of the people who become visibly annoyed with her in these situations has to be an oversensitive asshole. In addition, every single one of the guys who turn her down has to be racist, because there’s clearly no other reason not to be attracted to her.

2.) Her social skills are shit, and she comes across as clueless and utterly obnoxious.

Which scenario seems more likely to you? Generally, when everyone but you is an asshole, the problem ain’t with everybody else.