Is NAMBLA for real or just propoganda?

astro contradicted astro’s self when astro said:

[quote}I hold not truck with gay (or other) bashing…[/quote]

and,

And you know this for a fact how? Pedophilia is not a gay thing, it’s a human thing that crosses both gender and sexual orientation.
I’m not arguing that it’s OK, I’m saying that it’s as present among heterosexuals as it is among homosexuals. Just take a look at how the ‘straight’ mainstream media and culture glorify pubescent female sexuality. From Catholic school girls flaunting it in music videos to Calvin Klein teeny boppers in flimsy undies – teen girlhood has become the standard of female beauty.

I hope you’re just as disgusted about that.

So, in fact astro, you are gay bashing. You are focusing in on the youth-oriented culture of gays (and not all of them are like that, many homosexual men I know prefer older or mature men and wouldn’t consider anyone younger than 30), and ignoring the youth-oriented culture of straights. It’s a blend of ignorance, denial, and overgeneralization on your part.

This line of complete and utter bullshit is just more ignorance and denial. The majority of pedophilia cases are with straight men molesting girls. The majority of pedophilia cases are with relatives, especially the father. The straight culture needs to wake up to this fact and deal with their own and stop pointing the finger at male-male instances of pedophilia as the only real problem.

Now here I agree with you. But my sense of compassion would also say that they should receive treatment at the same time.

Peace.

I have nothing to add to this discussion, really, except to note that I once found myself at a beastiality advocate’s site (a long story) and they had this long disclaimer about how higher animals are all capable of emotions like love and that they were fully capable of consenting relationships, etc; and then how we should all respect other people’s sexuality and not judge, and try to understand and tolerate them, etc.-- except pedophilia–they then followed with this intense attack on pedophiles and how they were sick perverts who should all be shot.

To which I wanted to ask “What about the puppies?”
Sorry to drag this down further…

Moriah, I also have a very strong sense of compassion, and I believe in forgiveness and rehabilitation, but there are some things that can’t be cured. “You can’t cure an egg-sucking dog.” “You can’t turn a pickle back into a cucumber.” Unfortunately a lot of prison treatment programs are only endured by the inmates and seen as a necessary con to run to get out of jail. The people running the treatments have a vested interest in expansion and success of their treatment programs so they tend not to face up to reality.
Imagine finding yourself trapped in a society where heterosexual activity is criminal. Assuming you are hetro, imagine you are caught and jailed for hetro activity. You then undergo “treatment” and you know you will be released if the treatment is successful. #1 - you will play ball and cooperate with your rehabilitation and #2 - when you are released you will, as soon as possible, plunge back into your criminal heterosexuality, because that is your orientation and it can’t be changed. Unfortunately, it is the same with pedophiles. Once they have made that mental leap and perceive children as sexually desirable I really believe there is no going back. (With all due respect to the infinite variety of the human condition and the resultant exceptions to every rule.)


appearances are deceptive - Aesop

“I could never condone child abuse. In order to abuse a child, you’d have to be in the same room with one.” --Florence King

I heard that several years ago at one of the Gay Pride parades in New York City, they actually let NAMBLA march. Apparently the normal gays surrendered to the pressure that they couldn’t discriminate against NAMBLA because that was similar to the way normal gays have been discriminated against.
That just reaffirmed the truth to me of
“If you can’t stand for something, you’ll stand for anything”

moriah touches on a point I’d like to make, that most of us here want to lynch pedophiles, yet society at large makes this hypocritical exception for men who want to have sex with teenage girls. Surf to any sex site, and half the banners on them are for things like “Barely Legal Teens”. They make that distinction only because they know that the FBI will be on them like flies on shit if they have underage girls on their site. But make no mistake - they are selling the fantasy of sex with underage girls. I’ve had carpoolers express desire for underage girls. I’ve heard comedy routines where that desire was expressed.

It’s all pedophilia.

My wife lost her virginity at 15 to her mother’s boyfriend, and she has been fucked up ever since. I’m only now appreciating how deeply she got fucked up, and we are both continuing to pay the price.

It’s all pedophilia.

Boris B:

In re my comment on European attitudes on this subject, an e-mail message I once received from a young Dutch woman was apparently of a date far enough back that I have deleted it. I also once noted once a Usenet message questioning whether comments of three European women the poster had talked to on the subject were representative. I don’t recall the wordings of either of these well enough to repeat any of them here; I just recall they indicated a much a much laxer view on a range of consensual sexual behavior between adults and children. The outlook may be getting more conservative in Europe, either in sync with the US or as a result of some events in Europe, such as the child killings in Belgium awhile back.

I have heard the conservative extreme in the US, where fathers make some statement like, “I’d rather see my child dead than. . .” – a line one can actually believe sometimes, and which seems to me to indicate that such criminality (of whatever level) is actually seen, in such cases, as perpetrated against the speaker, rather than the child.

furt:

I haven’t heard anything on puppies. Maybe there are some things being left out of the many Websites on family pets.

Steviant:

How do you decide, then, which things you are going to “believe” should be on one side of the fence rather than the other?

BTW, what is “Steviant” derived in respect to?

Here’s a relevant news item I didn’t become aware of earlier in the year when it appears to have occurred: The American Psychological Association published a study, “A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples”, in their journal “The Bulletin”, and the Family Research Council responded with the comments given on this page. Another site on this.

BTW, is there a NAWGA? I’ve never heard of one, but there’re a lot of things I haven’t heard of.

Ray (no pets)

NAMBLA’s motto is --------
“Sex before 8 or it’s too late.” John Walsh,
America’s Most Wanted
These are some sick people.

Oopsie. Oh gee, I seem to have violated some kind of Straight Dope message board protocol by saying “I believe” something. NanoByte, I wish there was a nice clear fence and I could make simplistic decisions (good/evil, right/wrong, ying/yang) about things. Discussing pedophiles, and sexuality and human nature in general, I think beliefs are going to enter into it, because there is no, and there never will be, exact science applicable to it.
NAMBLA is real. I read a news story about a couple of creeps in the eastern USA who were arrested concerning dead boy stored in a big Rubbermaid tub and their car had NAMBLA lterature in it.
I repeat, I BELIEVE there is no going back for pedophiles. I BELIEVE there is no treatment that will re-orientate their sexuality. Incarceration until their testosterone is reduced by old age is the only treatment I can think of. I BELIEVE that once they have enjoyed sexual experiences with children thay have an incurable personality defect.
NanoByte, as for your comment: “BTW, what is “Steviant” derived in respect to”, I’m going to take that as a really cheap shot when the serious subject under discussion is of a sexual nature. I see you are a promiscuous poster and I am going to BELIEVE that you are a male being territorial with a new kid on the block. I hereby retire the UserName Steviant. I don’t give a shit about establishing a reputation or a personality on this board. I just like reading, and participating in, intelligent discussions. I’ll be back under a new name.


appearances are deceptive - Aesop

There was a segment on the local news that a major rep of nambla lived close to a local school.Of course,they wouldn’t say his address,just gave a p.o.box.I thought that was so sad,here they are protecting this guy,cause they knew what would happen if they gave his address.Protect the criminals. :frowning:

I believe that the slogan “sex before eight or else it’s too late” comes from another deviant group in California which promotes child molestation. I’m sorry I can’t remember the acronym.
Also, according to a BBC article I read a couple of months ago, there has been some effort to reduce the age of consent for homosexual activities.
Sex with underage girls is accepted far too much! How many times have you seen some stupid talk show on tv where some 11 or 13 year old was pregnant or having sex and the boyfriend was 28 or 35! That is child molestation and should be prosecuted vigorously.

Activists in Britain are just trying to lower the age of homosexual consent to be the same as it is for heterosexual consent–they aren’t trying to lower it to eight!

Smilingjaws, you’re kidding, right? That’s too sick even to be a joke. Tell me you’re kidding. :frowning:


The Cat In The Hat

It was reported in some book(im with the band) that when Melanie Griffith and Don Johnson got together and had sex she was 15,and him 22!

I recognize that some standard must exist in terms of “age of consent” in order for “children” to be protected.

HOWEVER… having been a child myself at one time, and then a teenager (female, by the way) I remember CLEARLY being perfectly capable and comfortable with my sexual choices. I was never coerced or manipulated. I started having sex at 16. I had sex with men many years older than me, and I often enjoyed it. I had friends who started having sex, or nearly sex, as young as 13. Even then, I disapproved and knew I was not ready, but they made that choice. I am still friends with most of them and we are all in our 40’s. None of them feels exploited by their early sexual experiences.

I think it is ludicrous to take the stand that because a given human being has not yet turned 18 that any sexual choices they make, especially those which include persons siginicantly older than themselves, are wrong, bad, or examples of exploitation or rape. Sometimes they ARE, often they are not.

Whatever we may think of the ADULT in that relationship, the fact is that biologically, puberty=sexual readiness. I think each case is individual. Believe me, I am deeply saddened when i see 12 year old girls who are pregnant, whether it is by their 12 year old boyfriend or their 30 year old boyfriend. But I believe that each sexually active person (Past puberty!!!) is different, and we can’t make blanket assumptions about them.
(for those of you having coronarys over my words, keep in mind that my sister was raped by her stepfather from age 8 to 10…this is not REMOTELY acceptable in ANY universe, ok?)

Stoid
Who thinks NAMBLA is deeply icky and most of their propaganda is horseshit…but had gay male friends in school and knows that gay boys DO like sleeping with older guys



This is a non-smoking area. If we see you smoking, we will assume you are on fire and act accordingly.

NAMBLA is very real, and very dangerous. If you go to their site (nambla.org) and read some of the articles, you’ll find that they are actually hostile to the mainstream gay community for not supporting nambla’s desire to completely abolish the minimum-age requirement to have sex. Yes, that’s right… they want it perfectly legal to have sex with virtually ANYONE, 16 years, 6 years or 6 months old.

You might find it sickenly interesting that here in British Columbia (they’d love this over at the Canadian vs. American thread) it is no longer illegal to possess child porn.

The asshole who challenged this law, and won, didn’t even have a lawyer, he defended himself on the grounds that “it infringed on his freedom and privacy”.

Hell in a handbasket? Ha! We’ve arrived!!

Here is the American Psychological Association’s response to the hullabaloo resultant from their Psychological Bulletin article on the “study” of the effects of child-adult sexual interactions.

I think it sort of puts the psychological “discipline” into a clearer view than a lot of people take it ordinarily. They would like to be seen as a branch of, or at least of the general nature of, (objective) science; whereas their subject matter is clearly subjective, and the nature of their doings is more related to religion, law and politics than it is to science. Here they have published a paper on a limited study, of what level of reputability – from a dispassionate stance – I know not; but then, after the fact of its reaction on the public and certain activist organizations, they have recognized that its academically distanced evaluation of the study’s results is so far from the limits of sentiment of the public and powerful factions thereof as to highly threaten the degree of reputability that the discipline has rather sneakily gained over the years. Clearly this response is not a confident academic one, but a scared-to-the-gonads political one.

Clearly, societies have considerable leeway in evolving norms of interrelationships between individuals within the constraints of biological imperatives, but the related emotions of individuals present considerable inertia to rapid changes. Of course, there is a continuum in behaviors, sexual or otherwise between individuals of any combination of ages, and some of it is quite physically destructive to one or more of them, while some is only highly influential on developing minds, so that the issue there is really as to what the eventual situations of those minds, in the particular social context of their milieu and their times, will turn out to be. It’s interesting that this factor of the context an individual finds her/himself in, under any eventuality of behaviors is not mentioned in any of these responses. Certainly the reaction of others to incidents, particularly sexual ones, occurring to underage individuals, and others’ extrapolations of the consequences, can, in the case of behavior that is not physically damaging to such individuals, determine much of what may either be detrimental or otherwise constructive to them.

I don’t follow what goes on in the field of psychology, so I don’t know whether there are any inherent feelings in researchers who pursue such studies as this one that bias them personally to sexual behavior with underage persons.

Since psychiatry / clinical psychology in the past, classed homosexuality as a (pathological) disorder and presently it doesn’t, one can view this sort of revisionism as an option within these disciplines in respect to all other behaviors, sexual or otherwise, that presently are on one side or the other of a movable border on such behavioral continua. Psychology and psychiatry have wormed their way quite far into legal and other institutions of our society. It’s hard to say that any one of custom, religion, law or psycho/social “science” should be the ultimate source of decision in all cases, while generally both acceptable and preferable behavior ranges will change over time, depending on a wide range of environmental factors. . .whatever the preachers within each of these institutions/sectors should have to say about such things. And, of course, society, being a dynamic system of a fair degree of stability, its standards will tend to shift back and forth on such controversial matters.

My grandmother was married and had her first child at the age of 14 in CA-US, in approx. 1889. I don’t know what the age of consent here was then (though I think it was either below that or nonexistent), or whether she had her parents’ permission – if they were alive. My mother was born considerably later, but still, where would I be if the law had created a big fuss over my grandmother’s earlier situation? On the contrary to any of that, however, I was not, by a long shot, in the fast lane as to such matters – probably for various reasons.

Apologies to ex-Steviant. I couldn’t resist the temptation.

As to my question, “BTW, is there a NAWGA?”, that should’ve been ‘NAWGLA’.

I have not heard of an organization in CA-US that supports adult-child sex generally, although I do remember, at one get-together in Berkeley, back when things were more free-flowing, some conversation which seemed to head off in that direction (one which had no relationship to the nature of the meeting). . .but then you can find anything in Berkeley without a lot of trouble if you poke around just a little.

Ray

'I have not heard of an organization in CA-US that supports adult-child
sex ’

I saw a tv film one time that mentioned the Rene Guyon society in Calif that supports
adult-child sex. I went to my library, looked in the Associations directory & sure enough, there it was.

JoltSucker wrote:

And women who want to have sex with teenage boys. As well it should.

I personally find it abhorrent that the word “pedophilia” is applied both to the desire to have sex with a 3-year-old, and the desire to have sex with a 15-year-old. (Or a 17-year-old if you’re in a state where the age of consent is 18.)

Whether or not you believe that sex between teen-agers and adults is bad, it should not be placed in the same category as sex between pre-teens and adults.


The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.

I believe the Rene Guyon society is the one with the “Sex before 8 or else it’s too late” motto. I don’t have a source for this I’m afraid but I do remember reading some article in Readers’ Digest about rampant pedophilia ages and ages ago. Wish I could be more specific, sorry. They did use that actual quote and this was maybe 15 to 20 years ago. Amazing.