My apologies. I’m an inveterate skimmer, and I must have conflated you with someone else. I really didn’t mean to misrepresent you.
As to your other points - I actually rarely hear rap at all on the radio where I live (rural Northern Michigan). There is no “Urban” station. One of the top 40 stations plays no rap at all, and the other might occasionally let loose with a little OutKast or Black-Eyed Peas, but only rarely. All the misogynistic stuff that’s been referred to in this thread would be far too hardcore for any of the stations here. So I can’t really identify with what you’re talking about as far as rap goes.
On the other hand, it seems that most genres of music are greatly shortchanged by the radio. The local alternative station up here plays two kinds of bands - Strokes clones and Limp Bizkit clones. Country radio seems limited to the same five artists (or at least that’s how it sounds). And at any given moment, there are at least two Led Zeppelin songs being transmitted from broadcast towers in Northern Michigan. To paraphrase Elvis Costello, that’s why they’re called frequencies. I don’t think it’s just a problem with rap. I think it’s a problem with radio in general. And how we would go about changing it, I don’t know.
I happen to like both “Dust in the Wind” and “Carry On Wayward Son” Don’t forget that there are a lot of us who actually like popular music, therefore there must be people who actually like popular rap. Usually when something is popular it’s for a reason, and often when something is not popular it’s also for a reason. (Not always, but often.) Those who are saying that people hate rap because they never hear the good stuff are making just as much a value judgement and blanket statement as saying that all rap is crap.
People who dismiss rap as unmusical are being willfully ignorant.
Now, I am by no means a hip-hopper; I think of myself as an indie kid at heart, and my musical sensibilities are firmly entrenched in rock and roll. That said, with all objective honesty, I have to say that rap and hip-hop (whatever the difference is these days) are by far the most innovative and musically interesting forms today. There has been far more development in this genre than there has been in rock over the last decade. You would be very hard-pressed to convince me otherwise.
When rockists complain about rap’s lack of melody (and, yes, most rap is pretty slim on melody, although their are plenty exceptions) they’re completely missing the point. Rhythm and cadence are the driving force of hip hop. That’s your “melody.” And let me tell you this, listening to plenty of amateur and awful rappers out there, being able to lay down some rhymes over a beat is not at all easy. These boys and girls are talented, and I mean musically talented.
As far as lyrical content goes, I don’t know how you can’t be entertained, amused, and even enlightened by rap lyrics. Once again, I think rap lyrics are the most culturally relevant and vibrant songwriting form that’s currently active. That should make sense, as rap places more emphasis on lyrics than rock (IMHO.) A good portion of rap lyrics ARE crap, sure, but even those are usually entertaining. Some people take the lyrics too seriously. A lot of rap is meant to be tongue-in-cheek, ironic, or painting a portrait of some sort of strange post-modern urban ideal.
I’m not saying it’s high art (though some may qualify), but rather that people who don’t like it are approaching it from the wrong cultural and musical perspective.
The worst of this thread is that those criticising hip hop seem to hold rock up as some musical ideal, happily ignoring that 40-50 years ago, rock occupied the same bastard-child place in music that hip hop holds today. What is truly shameful is not that these people can not see the worth of hip hop, but that they claim to like rock music, a form of music that once defined itself in its rebellion, it’s creativity and its opposition to established ideas. How pathetic that today’s Rolling Stones fans are whining about the exact same things that their parents whined about - immoral lyrics, no-talent performers, a too-loud beat - and, like their, like their parents, are unable to see the inherent musicality in the genre they criticise. And how ridiculous is their pompous notion that one form of pop music (Zeppelin, Beatles, Pink Floyd) is somehow high art, whereas another form is supposedly unworthy. While I may not agree with someone who claims classical music is superior to pop music, I could understand where they were coming from, but to quibble that one genre of pop music is high art, whereas another can not be is an unbearable conceit. Odd too, that so many of hip hop’s critics see pop music’s zenith to amazingly coincide with the years of their teenagehood.
The severest critiques in this thread have been of gangsta rap. I have included below an argument, that I found convincing, discussing the merits of gangsta, and I think that anyone with any honesty can at least draw an understanding of the possiblity of why people are driven to listen to or make gangsta rap, and why it is a valid form of musical expression.
From here, a review of 50 Cent’s Get Rich Or Die Trying album.
I think that it’s also helpful to read the author’s criticisms of 50 Cent, so as to see the difference between good and not-so-good gangsta rap.
From what I have heard of rap, with my own ears, which in the past just over two years was quite a bit and almost on a daily basis, yes, I’m perfectly willing to dismiss rap as garbage. As to critics, I never take their opinions on anything, I listen only to myself. This applies to movies and books too: if I see a commercial for a movie or book (or someone tells me about a movie or book), and what I can glean about the subject matter or story appeals to me, I’ll want to see or read it. I don’t care if critics say it’s horrible, if I’M interested, I’ll put it on my “future viewing or reading list.” I prefer to think for myself, thank you very much.
And besides, the OP wanted to know if other Dopers thought rap was crap or not. As a member of the SDMB, am I less entitled to my opinion than you or anyone else, rap-lover, rap-hater, or “rap middle-of-the-roader”?
Kansas IS one of my all-time favorite bands, they have been since I was a teenager. I don’t know how to get to ANY sporting good stores (or even which ones are in my area), though I don’t know what that has to do with this discussion.
As a woman, I lack testicles, personally. However, I will again reiterate the fact that I don’t see any reason why I have less of a right to express my opinion (even if it includes “critical statements” about music) than you or anyone else here, and I certainly see no reason for you to insult me for it. The OP asked a question about our opinions of rap. I, along with numerous other Dopers, replied with my own honest opinion.
If I made a mistake, it was perhaps allowing myself to be drawn deeper into this discussion, i.e., subscribing to this thread and participating further, specifying WHY I don’t like rap, etc. I should have just answered the original question “Is Rap ‘Crap’?” with a simple Yes, and gone on my merry way with no further comment. Rest assured, I plan to do just that after THIS post.
No, I’m not going to say that “Carry On Wayward Son” or “Dust in the Wind” blow. I don’t think they do. In fact, it was hearing “Carry On” on the radio (back when it first came out) which made me take notice, say, “Oh, that’s so cool,” and I ran out and bought the album, only to discover the rest of the album was even better, and that’s when I took interest in buying other albums by this band – I LIKED what I heard and wanted more. Hearing a song I DON’T like, by an artist I don’t like, is NOT going to inspire me to run out and spend money on the album. And in two years of almost daily exposure to rap on three different radio stations I never heard one song that DIDN’T make my nerves stand on edge and put me in a near homicidal mood within the first thirty seconds (and then I was forced to keep listening, because my coworkers liked it and I was outnumbered). Having already given my reasons twice, no need to restate them yet a third time. I just have a hard time believing that people “should,” for the sake of “open-mindedness,” SPEND HIS/HER MONEY on and then TIME listening to albums based on NOT liking, or even HATING (as I did), when what he/she heard of those recordings (and all recordings in that genre) on the radio.
OK, 'nuff said. If I’m “too old and stuffy” or “close-minded” to “appreciate” rap, so be it, and I don’t give a goddamn horse’s posterior if that’s your opinion – you’re as entitled to yours as I am to mine. The best we (you and I, along with everyone else who shares your views) could ever possibly do is agree to disagree.
Y’know, I’m not a jazz fan. Most of it simply doesn’t appeal to me. But I don’t feel the need to decry jazz musicians or fans. I recognize that it takes talent and skill to play good jazz.
Why are people so vehemently and vocally opposed to rap music, as compared to jazz or country? If you don’t like it, don’t listen to it. It’s not like there’s some law requiring everyone to go out and buy Snoop Dogg CDs. Why do you care if other people get a kick out of it?
I’m sorry, but it really does smack of folks who thought Elvis Presley heralded the downfall of civilization. What’s next, you gonna yell at kids to stay off your lawn?
Not at all. If you don’t like rap, then say “I don’t like rap.” If it doesn’t appeal to you, say “It doesn’t appeal to me.” Let that be an end to it.
However, some posts to this thread have included such blanket dismissals as “Rap is crap,” “Rap is not music,” and “Rap is just a lot of yelling.” That’s going a bit beyond a statement of opinion. It’s more or less presenting one’s opinions as a fact, and that’s what chafes me about it. That’s when I start listing artists that to me defy those statements, because I’m trying to demonstrate that they aren’t true. No one has to buy Talib Kweli because I like him. I’m just asking that people acknowledge that mileage varies. That’s all.
First of all, I wasn’t picking on you personally, Yersinia, I just used your post to address a lot of the points I wanted to make.
I’m not saying you have to buy any rap CD’s. I already stated that lots of people simply aren’t going to like rap music, and that’s fine. But its the general tone of anti-rap posters in this thread, saying things like “it’s not music,” that has me amazed. It’s not just that you don’t like it, it’s that you don’t like it enough to come in and engage in a discussion about how it sucks.
Here’s an appropriate analogy for you. I probably hate “Dust in the Wind” as much as you hate the latest P. Diddy song. (Now, I hate “Shake Ya Tailfeather” a lot also, I’m just providing an example.) But I don’t go around posting about how any music made with a guitar, bass, and drums is crap. I’ve never once said the genre of rock is not music. I just find the music I like in that genre and leave Kansas alone. I’m sure the members of Kansas are all talented and musically competent, but the music they create is of no use to me (except for turning on classic rock radio and playing the “Kansas, Boston, or Styx?” game.) But somehow people who don’t like rap feel the need to dismiss the basic musicality of the genre. This seems strange to me.
And the link Metacritic’s highest rated albums since 2000 was to show those who think “rap is crap” are not even close to the opinions of people who are paid to criticize music. The fact that OutKast’s Stankonia is the highest rated new release in that time period shows that rap is indeed music, and the best rap music is among the best of any music out there. This is (almost) 2004 now, its pretty obvious that rap is fully ingrained in the popular music culture and has the same pluses and minuses as any other form of music. I think “rap is crap” is a battle cry best left to the aging white people from ten years ago who first wondered “who are these ghetto kids on MTV, and why are they driving better cars than me?”
Twenty five years after DJs rapped over what they played in the South Bronx dance halls and discotechs, rap is still outlaw, while the likes of Ozzy and Mick Jagger gets the MBE and are trated like royalty.
Rap and hip-hop is what rock and roll wanted to be.
Twenty five years after DJs rapped over what they played in the South Bronx dance halls and discotechs, rap is still outlaw, while the likes of Ozzy and Mick Jagger gets the MBE and are treated like royalty.
Rap and hip-hop is what rock and roll wanted to be.
I’ll vote with Yersinia. I’ve had a couple of jobs over the past three years where I’ve had to listen to a fair amount of rap and hip-hop. None of it has impressed me in the slightest. These practioners of noise impress me neither as poets or musicians.
Yes, howie, I think rap is crap, and this aging white person loves Jimi Hendrix, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Trane, Satchmo, Bird, Lester Young, Lady Day, Tony Williams, The Modern Jazz Quartet, Teddy Williams, Ron Carter Charles Mingus, James Brown, Lightnin’ Hopkins, Howling Wolf, Marvin Gaye (especially when he was singing with Tami Terrell), Stevie Wonder, the Temptations, the Four Tops, Sam & Dave, the Stylistics, the Rev. Al Green, and Prince. I find one difference between these musicians and rappers & hip-hoppers: they had talent.
burundi: I don’t see that Hoosier fans of rap & hip-hop are any more tolerant of other musical genres. At one of my jobs, it is informal company policy that the radio has to be turned to the local rap station every night or else rap and hip-hop CD’s have to be played. A couple of weeks ago, some of the older workers decided to usurp the CD player and play some Hendrix, Eagles, and Led Zeppelin. After two hours, all the young snots were bitching because they had to listen to something new. I guess they might go into withdrawal if they can’t hear the same songs 200 times a day. I would really like to blow the little fuckers’ minds by playing some Vivaldi or Bessie Smith.
Hey, I love most of those musicians also (the ones I’ve heard music by at least.)
I can find another difference. They were all popular 20-30 years ago, and rap wasn’t. Isn’t it possible that good music has been made since your formative years?
Also, are you going to tell me that J-Live (and I doubt you’ve heard a J-Live song on the radio) doesn’t have any talent? I can think of dozens of other rappers that have easily recognizable talent, even to those who don’t like their music. Making blanket statements about artists you’ve never heard is just… well, it’s not good. And I’m sure you’ve heard some OutKast songs on the radio. Perhaps your mind is already closed about any rap songs after hearing “Hot in Herre” for the billionth time, but I think if you listened with an open mind you’d have appreciated at least certain elements of their songs. The story-telling skills of “Ms. Jackson,” or the interesting addition of the guitars in “Bombs Over Bahgdad,” these are the types of things that make any music great. Even if you don’t like the music, you should still be able to appreciate elements of the music that clearly take talent.
I’m not asking you to go buy any rap CDs, but just admit that maybe all those critics aren’t wrong. Maybe all those people under thirty aren’t wrong. I just think that no one who truly loves music would ever dismiss every artist in a genre as untalented.
Wow, so they didn’t want to open their mind to music they are unfamiliar with? Sounds like you fit right in.
Odd that you were willing to listen to Hendrix 30 years ago, while the artists pushing the boundaries of popular music today, those who, like Hendrix, are changing our perceptions of the way sound can be used are dismissed as ‘noise.’ I get the feeling that if you were the age you are now back in the late '60s, you would dismiss Hendrix and Led Zeppelin as noise and complain that the kids at your workplace wouldn’t listen to Sinatra.
You call that moron bleating ‘Hotel California’ new? If I was one of those ‘young snots,’ my complaint wouldn’t be about having to hear something ‘new,’ it’d be about having to suffer through that west-coast-wankery, utterly devoid of any passion, vitality or creativity. Hey, like your homogenised Classic Rock crap all you want, but don’t call it new! It wasn’t even new back in the 1970s!
Just take a look at the lyrics and the music videos, you’ll see the difference. The whole point of rap is to get as rich as possible, have as many women as possible and be as arrogant and flamboyant in public as possible to make sure that everyone who knows your name knows that you have the most money and women and that no one should “step” to you. Simply put, bragging is the backbone of rap and I think that is stupid.
It’s sounds like I am all emotional about it, but I could care less… those are just my casual observations and opinions.
I’m probably very late to this party but here goes.
99% of all “radio” rap is pure shit. There, I’ve said it and odds are many rap fans will agree. All I hear is that the good rap is in the underground scene being sold by the guy out of the trunk of his car at a club. As a white kid from suburbia, that’s rather hard to get a hold of.
Rock music isn’t like that. A lot of the “best” rock acts are played on the radio. Queens of the Stone Age. The White Stripes. The Foo Fighters. Guster. Coldplay. They get radio play and mainstream radio play. People hear them, they like them, and they can tune out the shit.
When all you hear is shit, that’s all you believe is out there.
But I challenge any “Rap is Crap” believer to listen to Trik Turner’s “Friends and Family” and not come away smiling. Very rock friendly rap and I like it. I need to track down the whole CD…
Sweet fucking Jesus there’s a lot of ignorance and vaguely racist undercurrents in this thread.
Turn off your radios, turn off your televisions, and stop generalizing so much.
“Props” (tee hee hee) to the fellow above who mentioned Aceyalone.
How something can be considered “not music” because the vocals are not “sung” is beyond me. Are there rhythms? Are there melodies? Yes?
Then it’s music.
The fact that things do not appeal to you does not make them inherently invalid. Christ.
Listen to Saul Williams, Aesop Rock, Mr. Lif, Dose One, DJ Shadow, Dalek, and any number of other amazing MCs/DJs/groups/producers who are making rap/hip-hop music and try to qualify them as invalid.
However, I will again reiterate the fact that I don’t see any reason why I have less of a right to express my opinion (even if it includes “critical statements” about music) than you or anyone else here, and I certainly see no reason for you to insult me for it. The OP asked a question about our opinions of rap. I, along with numerous other Dopers, replied with my own honest opinion.