Sweet fucking Jesus there’s a lot of ignorance and vaguely racist undercurrents in this thread.
Turn off your radios, turn off your televisions, and stop generalizing so much.
“Props” (tee hee hee) to the fellow above who mentioned Aceyalone.
How something can be considered “not music” because the vocals are not “sung” is beyond me. Are there rhythms? Are there melodies? Yes?
Then it’s music.
The fact that things do not appeal to you does not make them inherently invalid. Christ.
Listen to Saul Williams, Aesop Rock, Mr. Lif, Dose One, DJ Shadow, Dalek, and any number of other amazing MCs/DJs/groups/producers who are making rap/hip-hop music and try to qualify them as invalid.
Of course, good music has been made since my formative years, howie. I like Natalie Merchant with and without 10,000 Maniacs, the Dave Matthews Band, Faith Hill, Garth Brooks, Sara McGloughlin, Nora Jones, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, and a few others. I hear much American blues, European jazz, African music, and Latin music that impresses me. I wish I could remember more names, but, as a middle-aged man, I find I cannot remember things with the facility of my younger self. I also lack the money at present to invest in new music.
Incidentally, howie, some of the jazz musicians I named were playing their best stuff well before I was born, and some of the musicians I discovered when I was well into my '20’s. Before you make snide comments like “you fit right in,” you would do well to improve your own knowledge.
I made no such statements. I merely said that what I have heard on the radio and CD players does not impress me. I judge rap based only on what I have heard. If what I’ve heard on the radio impresses me only as noise, why should I seek out unknown (to me) artists to see if they are any better? Incidentally, howie, since I can play a little guitar, I am well aware that it is possible to appreciate someone’s talent without liking what they are playing. I think Barbara Streisand is tremendously talented, but I don’t like the majority of stuff she has released to the public.
In the names of all the dieties of all the pantheons, spare us this shit. This was infantile nonsense in the '60’s, and it doesn’t improve with age…
Give me a fucking break. I know jazz musicans who hate country. I’ve met country musicians who wouldn’t listen to jazz for anything. I’ve worked with a classical musician who looks down on all forms of popular music. I’ve known a fair number of musicians throughout my life, and I’ve known several who played genres they disliked simply because there was money in it, or because they wanted to play badly and were willing to play literally anything. It is more than possible to love music and despise a genre or genres. It happens all the time.
Incidentally, howie, I would like for you and other defenders of rap to state if you can actually play instruments or sing. I can play the guitar badly. Do you actually have any musical knowledge, or do you take all your opinions from the critics?
Since you don’t know me, gex gex, perhaps you can try making a rational argument, or do you feel that ad hominem attacks constitute the height of debate. Or are you telling the SDMB that you have the godlike power of discerning a person’s life history, personality, and mentality from a piece of prose less than 300 words long?
Not new to me, but new to them, especially since many of them don’t listen to oldies stations. J.S. Bach and Mozart have been in their graves for centuries, but I daresay their work their is new to many young people.
Hiretsukan: You just demonstrated your intellectual bankruptcy. Saying one dislikes all rap and hip-hop is no more racist than saying one dislikes all country or all bluegrass. If this is the best you can do, why don’t you go back to shitting yellow and come back in a few years?
Hiretsukan: Quote me some of those statements and explain why they are vaguely racist. I haven’t seen any anti-rap statements that fit my definition of racism. Enlighten me or admit that you are making cheapjack claims.
BTW, my challenge stands: Do you play an instrument or sing?
Since I started The I Love Rap Thread, I suppose it’s pretty obvious where I’m going to come down on this issue. My only problem with this thread is the high volume of hip-hop apologists who keep saying things like, “Well, yeah, some people rap about bitches and drugs, but the real musical rappers don’t!” To this I say, “Ha!” Or, to put it more succinctly, and quote the immortal words of Andre 3000 on 200’s Stankonia
So, yeah, some rap is great because it’s not about hos and dough, but some rap is great because it is. Don’t get all high and mighty and start talking about misogyny in rap lyrics unless you’re willing to explain how Biggie’s “Me and My Bitch” is more misogynistic than, say, “Whole Lotta Love” or “Light My Fire.” One of the great things about rap, though, is that the women can give as good as they get. In rock, the sexually adventurous or confrontational women, like P.J. Harvey, get sloughed off to alternative stations where no one will hear them. Hip-hop, on the other hand, embraces songs like Kelis’s “Milkshake” or nearly anything ever recorded by Missy Elliot or Li’l Kim. These songs become among the most popular in the nation, and that just doesn’t happen in rock circles.
The best rappers combine all the disparate elements of hip-hop into one highly intriguing and entertaining whole. Acts like Jay-Z, The Notorious B.I.G., Nas, OutKast, 2Pac, and Eminem all have a knack for mixing the gangsta with the poet, the thug with the artist. If you don’t see it, that’s fine. Some people can’t get past the gun-clapping swagger that is one of the traditions of the genre. Some people can’t see past the fact that the three-hundred pound mezzosoprano onstage is playing a naive young waif in an opera, either.
What bothers me most about this thread was that this argument got tired about ten years ago, at least. I understand that there are those folks out there who will never accept hip-hop as a viable genre of music, but there are folks out there who will never accept this new-fangled rock’n’roll stuff. Critics of rap as music are never going to convince the faithful that it’s not a worthwhile artform, so can you guys just give up? You’re not the one-eyed folks in the land of the blind. You may not like it, but at least accept the fact that the majority of Americans under the age of, say, thirty, grew up with hip-hop being a big influence (for good or ill) on their lives and, to us, it’s more than music. It’s art.
BTW, please explain how “Light My Fire” is misogynistic.
As for mixing the poet with the gangster, please; just because you can rhyme doesn’t mean you can write poetry. Look up the definition of doggerel sometime.
Well, in the sense that I believe rap to be music (and potentially good music), I suppose I am a “defender” of the genre- and I’m a music theory major and classical guitarist.
In anycase, a while back I remember some students that were arguing about whether or not rap was music . The theory professor that was in the room ended the debate by asking if any of them would be able to transcribe the rhythms that a rapper sings. Try it sometime, transcribing the rhythms that is- it may make you think twice about the depth and complexity of some rap music.
But…this really seems a tad silly. We live in an era where John Cage, Milton Babbitt, Morton Feldman etc. etc. have come and gone- how can we have lived through those musics and yet still be unable to decide if rap is actually music?
So to those who are totally bewildered by rap music, take heed to the words of Charles Ives “Stop being such a God-damned sissy! …and use your ears like a man!”
Well…maybe not something that strong, but still, be reluctant to ride off the entire genre as “not music.”
Thank you, Israfel, for actually offering a coherent argument. I shall endeavor tomorrow night to listen to whatever is on the radio and see if I am missing something.
Someone said rap is not music, I’ll defer to musicians,but I’ve yet to see sheet music w/the words & notes written out. LiveBetter is correct- but rap goes 20-30- years before Berry et al. I have video clips of many old black vocal groups rapping-Golden Gate Quartet, Deep River Boys to name just two.
Hold on, let me get this straight. If I don’t know how to play an instrument, that means I take all my opinions from critics? I guess that means I must know how to play an instrument since I hate Jay-Z and Eminem so much.
I can play a tiny bit of guitar, and I took piano lessons many years ago, but I’m sure all the knowledge has been lost by now. Knowing a little bit about guitar hasn’t enhanced my enjoyment of any music, other than sort of learning how to play some songs I like.
Does this answer make rap music more valid as an art form? Less valid?
Uhm, yeah, I’ve heard of Chrissie Hynde. But The Pretenders illustrate my point, so why are you bringing her up? Not only does she have to be a member of a band in order to make it big in the rock world, but she also only had a couple of minor hits. Well, okay, they were major, but they weren’t nearly major on the scale of a track by Missy Elliott or Li’l Kim. The Pretenders released, by my unofficial count, four Top 40 songs and two top tens. Missy has had seven number one singles in the last four years, starting with “Hot Boys.” That’s not even including the songs on which she was a guest or produced.
And get over yourself with the doggerel crap. It actually takes a good poet to write good doggerel. Or would you not call Shakespeare or T. S. Eliot good poets? However, the point is not whether it’s doggerel or not, because it most demonstrably is not. I believe someone already made the point that you should scan the freakin’ verses and you’ll find some very complex foot patterns and rhyme schemes. I’m not saying that any of these rappers are William Butler Yeats here, but neither are rock lyricists. I mean, really, besides Bob Dylan, has there ever been a decent poet-rocker? But that’s the point of lyrics. They don’t have to be technically perfect poetry to flow well with the music. If you don’t see that, then I don’t understand how you can enjoy music at all.
And yes, I play the piano (badly) and sing (even more badly). However, whether one plays an instrument or not has no bearing on this conversation. Are you telling me that I couldn’t decide whether or not a painting is good based on whether I can paint? Or that I couldn’t discriminate between a good and a bad movie just because I can’t actually direct? I can’t watch a football game and have an opinion on whether the guy was inbounds or out because I’ve never played a pro sport? See, your argument is ludicrous (Not Ludacris) and insulting.
One thing you were right about, however, was that I had “Light My Fire” confused with every other Doors song in the whole world. Sorry.
You know what? I don’t like rap. I mean I REALLY don’t like rap.
But so what? If something speaks to you, I say great!
If you get something out of listening to rap that you don’t get from some other genre… good for you!
(But, as a side issue, could we please outlaw those damn subwoofers people have in their cars nowadays?? The bass makes my ears throb! That goes for rock fans too, of course…)
Peyote – The problem is you are analyzing rap from a totally “classical” Western musical perspective. Melody is probably the most important trait of Western music. Traditional African music places more emphasis on rhythm. Arabic music tends to be more harmonically driven. These are all generalizations, but I think it’s invalid to impose rock/classical/pop values on a genre which doesn’t have the same aesthetic principles. You don’t look at a Picasso and analyze it in terms of classical painters, why would you do this with music?
Since technical qualifications seem important to you, my music background is I’m a classically and jazz-trained pianist, have an advanced knowledge of classical & jazz music theory; also play guitar, bass, and drums and have played in various touring independent rock bands. That said, I don’t think my opinion is any less valid than, say, howie’s. I can name plenty of musicians who cannot play their instruments for shit, but they are true musicians in every sense of the word. It’s more than just technique. The ultimate is a good technician with a charismatic style combined with creative nuance and passion. But I’ll take the imperfect creative musician over a technician any day.
But I’m digressing. Just because rap doesn’t have sheet music doesn’t mean jack. It’s a form which doesn’t lend itself to that sort of transcription. There’s plenty of modern classical music which is transcribed in non-traditional ways.
I just cannot believe that people fail to hear and appreciate the rhythmic complexity of rap beats. I don’t mean the 4/4 backbone, I mean the raps themselves. It’s amazing and requires a high degree of musicianship/instinct to do convincingly.
Howie: You were the one who brought up critics. Personally, I don’t care a fig for critics; I prefer to think for myself. I asked the question about whether rap supporters can play or sing because I’m curious to see if any of you actually have musical knowledge.
Wizard: Your remarks about Chrissie Hynde are ignorant. She is not simply a member of a band; she runs the band. Furthermore, the Pretenders had a great impact in the early '80’s because of songs like “Tattoed Love Boys” and “The Adulteress,” songs that were not Top 40 hits.
Incidentally, your comment about judging an artist based on the number of Top 40 hits fails to impress. Led Zeppelin had only one Top Ten hit; anybody here dumb enough to make the argument that they are a minor rock band because of that? To paraphrase Anatole France: it doesn’t matter if 50 million people like a piece of shit; it remains a piece of shit.
Congratulations, you just proved you don’t understand the difference between poetry and doggerel.
Ever heard of John Lennon and Paul McCartney? Joni Mitchell? My college literature text used a Genesis song as an example of fine modern poetry, and I would submit Peter Gabriel is a very fine poet-rocker. I would suggest that both Jimi Hendrix and Mick Jagger are both highly underrated as songwriters, and both have written lyrics I would have little hesitation in calling poetry. If you can find it, I recommend you look up an old '70’s book called Grandfather Rock, which contrasts rock lyrics with classic poems. You might find quite a few other modern lyricists who can be called poet-rockers. Some people would also suggest Leonard Cohen and Neil Young as being fine poet-rockers. Doubtless, other Dopers can make other suggestions.
Actually, I understand this very well. YOU were the one who insisted rappers mix the poet with the gangster.
Never once in this thread have I told any of those things to anybody; I simply asked a question. Obviously, if you understand color, perspective and texture, you will be able to get more out of a painting than someone who doesn’t understand these things. I admire beautiful paintings, but I don’t delude myself that I get as much out of them as an artist. I think anyone who is a musician or a singer of any sort will get far more out of a musical work than someone who is not. I think anyone who writes will get far more out of Yeats than Rod McKuen; far more out of Charles Dickens than Martha Graham.
This concludes, at least temporarily, my participation in this thread. As I told Israfel, I am going to try to listen to some rap and hip-hop and see if I have been wrong. Adios.
Er, okay, maybe I didn’t make myself clear, because you obviously missed my point completely. I said that the female acts that are sexually or lyrically adventurous in the rap game get just as much critical and commercial success as the male acts. My point is illustrated by both Chrissie Hynde and, my personal favorite, P.J. Harvey, who, while being influential and writing good songs, never had the commercial success that a male act like, say, The Rolling Stones did. Actually, no, I believe I made that point quite well, you just seem to be willfully ignorant of it.
Ahem. Well, thanks for assuming I’m a moron, but I’m not. Since you told me to get a dictionary, I’ll invite you to do the same. Well, here, I’ll save you the trouble. According to The American Heritage Dictionary, doggerel is “Crudely or irregularly fashioned verse, often of a humorous or burlesque nature.” As I said before, it takes a good poet to write good doggerel.
As for your suggestions of good poet-rockers, well, uhm, I would never tell someone what to like and not like when it comes to something completely subjective like music and poetry, but John Lennon and Paul McCartney?! These are the guys who wrote “Ticket to Ride,” right? You’re telling me that rappers write poorly worded doggerel? Ha! I expected maybe a Lou Reed suggestion, or maybe at the outside a Tom Waits, but the list you rattled off is truly, to me, laughable. Peter Gabriel writes poetry every bit as well as I can rap, and that ain’t well. I’ll give you a possible Leonard Cohen, though, in all honesty, it seems to me that his songs are little more than poems with a musical accompaniament. However, I will admit to being more than a little bit of a snob about true poets. For instance, I don’t think America has ever produced one (Whitman and Cummings came close), unless you count some pages of William Faulkner, and I think the rest of the world produces about one every hundred years. We’re still sleepin’ off the Rennaisance.
And, again, your question about a person’s musical ability is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. I don’t know if you agreed with me on that or not, I couldn’t tell, so I’m just re-iterating.
I am not making an ad hominem attack, nor am I claiming godlike powers. I simply extrapolated from the facts presented. You spoke approvingly of Hendrix and suggested that you were older. I assume, then, that you have been a fan for some time, and from my knowledge of Hendrix, and from listening to his music, his great legacy is his inventiveness with sound and the way he used that sound to make some great songs. I may be reading between the lines, but if my assumptions are correct, it seems ironic that you are willing to listen to an artist who occupied a similar creative position thrity years ago that artists such as Outkast occupy today.
I don’t how you poor persecuted baby boomers cope. I’m sure that the current popularity of hip hop may distress you, but let me assure you that its ubiquity is dwarfed by that of classic rock. Go into big chain store department stores and have a listen to what’s being played. It sure ain’t Nas. Listen to what’s selling cars on TV. It’s not the latest gangsta hit. Hip hop might be popular, but classic rock is everywhere. It is inescapable. You truly are deluded if you think that the Eagles are somehow obscure, even to some poor, deprived young person whose musical taste does not extend to bloated corporate rock.
So if you can play an instrument and a rap fan can’t, your opinion is somehow superior to theirs? What is this, a pissing contest?
Not that it matters, but I do play guitar. I also make my own electronic music, and have experimented with some hip hop. Despite this, I recognise that musical training does not make one’s opinion more valid. In fact, it seems:
…that trained musicians can be just as closed-minded as your average talentless fan. However, since you appear to hold the opinions of qualified people in high esteem, you may be interested that Irish poet Seamus Heaney has praised Eminem for his “verbal energy.”.
Sure I have. Weren’t they the guys who came up with “She loves you/ yeah, yeah, yeah”? And I believe one of them had a hand in coming up with this poetic wonder from Wonderful Christmastime:
“The choir of children sing their song
Ding dong, ding dong
Ding dong, ding Ohhhh
Ohhhhhhh”
The “talking blues” and other techniques used by early black vocal groups do have some similarity to rap, but to claim that they invented it is completely false, as anyone with any knowledge of hip hop’s history will attest. The evolution of rap did not even have anything to do with these groups, though many amateur musical historians assume that the two forms of music are linked. However, the fact is, hip hop (and from it, rapping) is a musical and cultural artform that arose in New York in the mid '70s.
Not that it has a whole lot of relevance on the discussion, but just for fun - I started playing brass instruments in concert band at age ten. I started out on trumpet, then switched to euphonium/baritone horn midway through high school. I continued to play in concert band all the way through college, and also played in the brass quintet and the jazz band. I also sang Alto II/Tenor I in choir. So, yeah, after fourteen years spending a significant amount of my time on music, I’d certainly hope I picked up a bit of musical knowledge.
I should also hope I learned a bit about poetry, considering the scads of money that were spent on my English degree. And while I can’t think of any T.S. Eliot doggerel off the top of my pointy little head, Shakespeare did occasionally indulge in the form, not so much in his sonnets as in his plays. And e.e. cummings certainly had a bawdy side.
It seems that there’s a certain assumption that all rap fanciers are culturally illiterate young hooligans. I really don’t think that’s the case. I’ll repeat - don’t dismiss an entire genre and its fans just because you don’t like it. Just say “I don’t like it.” It isn’t hard.
Disclaimer: I don’t really think that the fact that I’m a band geek and bookish dweeb gives me any special insight into modern music. But the dude asked a question, so I answered it.
