Put a loaded and cocked shotgun in your mouth, with the intent to pull the trigger, and see how courageuous you feel. For an act that takes just a few seconds, it’s scarier than staying alive.
Damn I hit submit when I meant to hit preview. Well above is my unedited version. I meant to qualify a bit more for the sake of compassion (I bear no ill will towards any suicide, just to those who blithely think it’s your life to do with what you will).
I think you underestimate life.
I can see that Strinka has not been visited by Mr. Despair. Mr. Despair is the larger, more brutal sibling of Ms. Sweet Misery. If I thought there existed an ounce of empathy/sympathy/compassion…hell, rudimentary sentience in post #2 of this thread I’d Pit it. Not worth the effort, I’m afraid.
To the OP: Cowardly? No. Except as noted when taken as the alternative to taking one’s lumps for a mistake. And even then, if it’s a reaction to intense remorse for having done something truly horrible I could still view this as “the high road.”
How can you judge someone’s actions when you don’t understand their motive? Despair comes in a variety of flavors: terror, sadness, hopelessness. But the common thread IMHO is inescapability. The act brings the inevitable to the present and calls up action to put a stop to it. If that’s “Not Facing Up To” whatever, then I don’t know what is. It’s easy for an observer to say, “Aw, he just lacked the self esteem to deal with (a cheating wife)(looking for a job)(rebuilding his life financially)(having a kid with his mistress)(chronic depression/psychosis–there’s medicine that’d have made him alright)(Coca Cola changing their formula).” That kind of attitude just screams, “I’m an insensitive and self-righteous so-and-so.”
Suicide is an intensely personal thing. Some have called it the last great philosophical question of our age–talk about a “Why” that can never be fully understood! Even with a suicide note explaining in detail all that has gone wrong and how this is the only viable alternative, the survivors can pick it apart, item for item and pose a workable alternative. Clearly for some reason this alternative was not visible or not viable. When left to do his work, Despair can drive us to select horrible deaths over life. I’ve been stopped twice, once because I was a raving lunatic almost completely unhinged from reality and happened to be posting on The Dope at the time; a second time by a close friend who pulled a gun out of my mouth a half a second after I put it there without warning (interesting story, that–he ended up giving me quite the beating). My mind was in very different states of repair both times, one fractured the other lucid, but I’ve never been in love with life. In both cases I can still recall my mental state and I would make the same decision if I were to return there.
Morality, too, in very personal. Any obligations arising therefrom are the possession of the individual. I’ve often wondered if it is impossible for anyone to commit an “immoral” act–a GD in and of itself–if one considers “morality” as obedience to one’s own sense of right & wrong. I’m crazy, sometimes very noticeably so. Am I wrong for wanting to spare my children the memories of what they might see of their father on a bad day?
I am also impressed with how agreed everyone is on this.
I am suicidally depressed. Not urgently, but it’s always there. I have always taken the view that nobody has a right to tell me I am obligated to live. I did not choose to be born. In fact, had I been offered an informed decision in the womb, I surely would have declined to participate in this comedy. Since it happened to me though, against my will, I feel it is within my right to decide if I want to keep on going with it. When I decide that I do not, nobody will be in a position to make a judgement of it. I don’t get credit every day for being “brave” or “generous” by NOT killing myself, but laugh at how, when one day I do go through with it, I will be “cowardly” and “selfish”. Well I say it is selfish of others to demand that I go on living when I do not want to. They plainly value their own feelings and comfort above their alleged concern for mine. I do my best to get by without any obligations to others, and go out of my way to be sure nobody is dependent on me. In the end, I say it is selfish of people to even bring children into this world.
And after reading that, I think, “damn, it really is pretty cowardly for a person with that attitude to NOT kill themself.” Indeed. My thing is I want to die, but I don’t want to suffer, and have no access to guns (long story, suffice to say I’d have to find one on the black market and have no idea how to do that (without a serious chance of just fucking my life up even worse in the process of failing at it…)). If that’s not cowardly, what is? By now, it would be the most self-determined, just, true, and fulfilling thing that I could possibly do to go through with it.
This is not a threat post. I am not crying for help or intending to do anything urgently. Just offering my own somewhat unique perspective on the issue, in an “ask-a-rational-suicidal-person!” kind of way
I am sure HST was fine by his decision, so I am too. A damned fine writer who was brave and generous in all the days he put up with the masses of stupid people into which he was born.
You can’t really compare the feelings of a suicidally depressed person with the bad day of an average person. For a normal person, it’s not so hard to deal with because tomorrow might always be better, right? Well, imagine if tomorrow is not better. And neither is the next day. Or the next. Or the next thousand!
No, it doesn’t take courage to carry on. It takes food, water, and shelter. I agree with MrDibble that the concepts of bravery and cowardice don’t apply to suicide.
People are not savings bonds.
Who commits suicide on a whim? If anyone, I doubt it would be statistically significant. Often the suicides that appear to come out of nowhere are commited by people who have been suffering in silence for years. Just because they can pretend to be happy does not mean they are.
Try telling that to someone who barely has the energy to roll out of bed in the morning. If you can rouse them out of bed, try getting them to do something when every activity on earth seems equally dull and pointless.
Somehow I doubt that suicide will ever become a fad.
Lucid. Good point.
I would rebut this, however, with an analogy. If the worst pain you’ve ever known is a hangnail, how can you honestly decide if someone with a compund fracture is behaving appropriately? You can say, “dang, that looks painful.” but to try and measure the agony of the pain combined with the psychological horror experienced by the victim can only be done from a vantage point of ignorance.
“We’ve all had bad days” to be sure, but only a few of us respond with inward violence. Could this mean that some of us have particularly bad days, the intensity of which can not be fathomed by the rest of you? I find that perspective to be offensive. But I sincerely thank you for bringing it up. With regard to the “social debt” we incur simply by being born and nurtured by a group, how much more legitemate is this debt than a financial debt incurred by one’s ancestors? I didn’t ask to be born, nor did I ask for the support of others (which is woefully inadequate if I’m sucking a gunbarrel)–why should I recognize that debt?
I’ve been divorced.
I’ve lost my job.
I’ve lost loved ones.
I’ve lost money in the stock market.
I’ve been embarrassed.
I’ve broken bones.
I’ve lost hearing in one ear.
In other words, I’ve experienced the normal ups and downs that most people experience.
None of those compare to the feelings I described in a previous post.
They are orders of magnitude different.
Before I let my emotions run completely amok (since I’m another on the side of 'incredibly depressed, etc.), I have only one kind of question that I usually ask over and over again.
How long is one supposed to stick it out? How long should you continue to seek help, fight against everything and remain living for everyone else other than yourself? Would that be right up until the end of a natural death, possibly due to old age? After you’ve given it a valiant effort for perhaps some 70 odd years? When ANYTHING has come before the decision that you end your own life because it isn’t getting any better, no matter what you do?
You don’t appear to have the first clue about the topic at hand.
I agree with the masses here. So does society to an extent, as evidenced by advance directives and the ubiquitous DNR order.
Most people agree that there is definitely a line of pain and suffering beyond which life is no longer worth living. That line is different for different people, but I’d bet that just about everyone has one.
The idea of suicide isn’t automatically selfish or cowardly. Sacrificing yourself to save another is noble and heroic, despite it being a suicide and therefore a direct flight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200. I’m not even sure that is altogether true, having my doubts about the Christian biblical position on suicide. Jesus, for example, could be said to have committed suicide by cop. I’ve heard that Sampson also committed a form of suicide, but I don’t know that story.
The act of suicide, however, can be extremely selfish, cowardly, and offensive. One must never endanger another person, else that’s tantamount to murder. You can’t jump off a building lest you land on some poor schmuck walking down the street. (I’m not kidding.)
Without a gun, (and even sometimes with one), suicide is extremely difficult to do “right”. Minimizing pain, maximizing the odds of success, and eliminating nasty permanent side effects like brain damage should you fail or be “rescued” is all but impossible. You can’t have all three.
Suicide is not for the faint of heart.
So it’s only important that your loved ones are physically present and contributing to your well-being? Even if they’re dead inside, suffering, you’d like them to stick it out just because you’d feel a lot of pain at their passing? And they say suicide victims are self-obsessed.
My thoughts exactly. What could possibly be more selfish than asking someone to continue a miserable life just because you like having them around?
Of course; I don’t think it necessaily must be a selfish act; I only said that it can - and I think it is marginally more likely (statistically, if it could be quantified) to be selfish than cowardly - but I’m sure there are plenty of exceptions to both and given a minute or two, I’m sure I could formulate a hypothetical situation where suicide would be a noble and courageous act.
Suicide is instinctual. When someone feels they are no longer useful and their consumption of resources does not justify their existence, they off themselves for the good of society. It is not selfish, cowardly, sinful, or immoral. It’s simply Human, and completely natural.
For at least some people, no.
sigh…
When I was suicidal, I was not thinking straight 99% of the time. I wasn’t making rational decisions. The only thoughts I had–“It’s hopeless,” “you’re a failure,” “no one cares you”–played on a continuous loop. My mind did not have room for other thoughts, like what my family’s reaction would be.
I was lucky–the 1% of the time that those thoughts crept through got me to seek help.
I strongly believe that when people are in enough psychic pain, a “self-destruct” mechanism triggers. I think most suicides aren’t about conscious or rational choice.
There are some suicides (especially suicide attempts) that are done with the intention of manipulating loved ones. When I was depressed as a teenager, it wasn’t bad enough to trigger the “self-destruct sequence,” but I thought a lot about making suicidal gestures to “show my parents.” This is a conscious choice, it’s manipulative, and it’s IMO worthy of scorn.
Another very good point. Many creatures do it. From an injured wolf that will limp off from the pack to die, right down to bacteria that are programmed to self-abort when the conditions are right. For the benefit of the group.
Sometimes I think society NEEDS more suicide, if you get my drift!
I’ve had a lot of suicides in my relationships. Some were close (relatives and a coworker), some had been close (a former boyfriend), and some were distant but still shocking (a former teacher).
All of that dying is a tragedy, but these people were not cowards. Some were ill. Perhaps all of them, essentially, were ill, infected with despair. I am saddened by the loss of some great people. The world always needs more great people. But great people don’t always need the world.
I view suicide as just another risk. We’re all going to die, some foolishly, some tragically, some suddenly. I can’t blame anyone for deciding to step off the ride while it’s still moving.
I find suicide selfish and loathsome.
I know of two people who did it and endeed their suffering, only to inflict it on others. The one person was nice enough to leave their body hanging in the closet of a hotel so that some poor worker had to find it there. The family get’s a note with the same old don’t feel bad for me clap trap by a person who doesn’t give a damn that the family now has to suffer with the guilt of believing they could have done more!
Then there was the other who decided to wait till the family was away for a week. She dressed up in her finest had a lovely meal and wrote a long note then downed drugs and booze and OD’d. A week later the family comes back to her corpse rotting in the living room. A lovely sight to leave as a last image.
I understand some people are in a geat deal of pain and maybe are ill enough (mentally) to not understand the consequences of their actions. But, damn, do I find it hard to forgive them for what they do to others.
I’ve always thought it more selfish of the family to want someone to “stick it out” when their loved one is constantly tormented by his or her own existence.
I am a firm believer in the right of anyone to take their life for any reason without being judged. The “sacredness” of life is based in religion and does not recognize the painful reality that, for some people, is merely the act of existing. It does not account for the unbearable, relentless pain that some lives have to endure. If your life sucks and you aren’t getting any enjoyment out of it, you should have the right to kill yourself without all the guilt. Sure, it will suck that your family is hurting. It is a terrible loss for your loved ones. But you can only live your own life. If it isn’t worth living, you should be able to opt out.
Gimme a break. Most family members don’t want them to “stick it out” for selfish reasons, but because they can see–as seriously depressed people usually can’t–that there is still hope for recovery, for good times, and/or for a life with some meaning. They don’t want to see their loved ones miss out on that.
(The exceptions I see are usually the family members of the irredeemably terminally ill, where there can be no other motive. Even then, the selfishness is usually unconscious.)