The pain that others might feel does not equal an ounce of the suffering the person who killed themselves was struggling with. The feelings of guilt and “I could have stopped it” are their problem. Maybe one more “I love you” could have saved the person, but probably not. At that point it’s irrelevant. Suicide, like all untimely death, is a tragedy, but blaming the victim doesn’t accomplish anything besides making you look self righteous. Do you blame someone with cancer for making those around him feel bad?
I actually view depression-related suicides as being deaths from a fatal disease. Suicidal ideation is a symptom of the disease and some people succumb to that symptom. Character and morality have nothing to do with it. The victim has been killed by an illness.
Yet there are some people for whom drugs and/or talk therapy and/or alternative treatments do not work at all, or make the condition worse. In fact, I believe some SSRIs need a “suicide watch” for awhile after they’re prescribed, because they can make the depressed person more likely to off himself/herself than before he/she took the drug. Of course half the time the doctors don’t tell you this anyway (one girl I know was mildly depressed, was put on an SSRI, and hanged herself after being on the medication for three months).
Therapy doesn’t always work. Telling people to “stick it out” doesn’t work if the drugs they take to make themselves better end up making them worse.
Precisely.
By this standard, I should have offed myself ages ago. After all, I’ve been in intensive therapy and trying new drugs for two years now, and I’m still not better. Sometimes the stuff they gave me made me really sick, mentally and physically. Now I’m on something that works better, but I’m not well yet.
But you’re right–the doctors and friends and family who have helped to remind me that there’s still hope and value in life, who’ve hung in there with me through some very dark times, they’re just being selfish. :rolleyes:
Telling someone to “stick it out” and then turning your back on them is cruel. Being a support for someone, to help them to see the beauty in life, and to hold out hope that things will get better, is never wrong or selfish.
People like Viktor Frankl can suffer through incredible pain and yet still have hope and appreciation for life, it’s reasonable to believe that there’s hope for almost anyone.
First off, I’d want to second all the other posters who have said that if someone is in the depths of depression or other mental illness, they are not in the position to be making a rational decision about whether there is a chance for happiness or recovery.
Secondly, I’ll admit that in spite of my Catholocism I do believe that you can’t judge all suicides the same. The jumpers during 9/11, or a sailor on the Kursk who may have killed himself to avoid the death waiting for them doesn’t really strike me as the same kind of act of nihilism as the man facing embezzlement charges who kills himself, or the twits who go for suicide by cop, or bus, or any other way of making someone else kill them. Then there’s the people who seem to end up committing suicide because they don’t believe things will ever get any better - I pity them, and try not to judge them, but I’m not the most rational person on this subject. While in college I’d had a roommate who was… a drama queen. He would talk about killing himself at least three times a week. It got the point where I was so sick of it, I nearly started to tell him to do it. I do think that a lot of suicide attempts are cries for help. I do think that a lot of suicides are people who’ve read too damned much romantic crap (similar to the character, if not the actuality, of Mme. Bovary.) and think it’s somehow appealing.
I try not to use cowardly as a general term for suicides, but I often think it. It seems the ‘adult’ version of a child holding his or her breath until they turn blue and pass out. I tend to think of suicide for healthy adults as both selfish and cowardly, even if all they’re afraid of is facing the next dawn or night alone. I don’t want to give the impression that I think that my reaction is the best one towards the idea of suicide, nor that I want to change anyone to my view. Just answering the OP’s question.
And, no, I’d never give that personal opinion to anyone who’s lost a loved one to suicide, nor would I say it to someone threatening suicide. Just
Whoops, thought I’d erased that “Just,” my apologies. Nothing further, here.
Nihilism? Seems pretty reasonable IMO to end your life if you know you’ll be spending most of it in prison.
Why? What’s so bad about prison?
I’m not saying that I want to go to prison, but, honestly, compared to living aboard ship in the Navy, I’d have more privacy, better amenities, and no GQ drills. Especially since white collar criminals, even those who have taken millions are treated better by the penal system than muggers, or drug dealers.
Yes. I stand by nihilism.
Once more with feeling…
How long should one stick it out for the benefit of someone/thing other than themselves? When has it been enough time to give up?
Or is the only acceptable answer to fight to a natural death a battle that you may never win??
faithfool, frankly, at this point, being another long time sufferer of mental illness I plan to live a long, and preferably satisfying, life. And part of that is because, dammit, I’m not going to give the illness a victory. This may be as childish as my statements about suicide, I’ll admit, but…
Let’s face it, no one makes it out alive, anyways - I don’t plan to be an ‘own goal.’ I don’t really know how to make things more clear than that. And I’m terrible at motivating other people. I can’t answer for you. And all I can do is offer help, and point you to people who do have some idea how to motivate others to avoid suicide.
Sorry I don’t have a better answer, faithfool. FWIW, I do hope you keep posting here. I want to hear the next Bob story, darnit. 
Uh huh. Well, if your regular life really is worse than prison, then prison might be a step up, in which case it would be irrational to kill yourself. But most people aren’t in that situation. Most people can see their friends or family whenever they want, use the toilet without being watched, vote in elections, turn the lights off at any time they choose, pursue hobbies other than weightlifting and writing, go to parks, restaurants, and stores, etc.
Yes, but a step down doesn’t mean necessarily torture or even unlivable conditions. That was the point I was trying to make. Granted I was using my past experience to help emphasize that prison has no real terror for me, but it doesn’t change the larger point. Hell, even now, I’d miss the SDMB, being able to see my family when I choose, a few other online things, being able to eat when I chose, and even to cook things that are challenging and fun when I choose. But, frankly, what else would I be giving up? I get out of bed these days because I refuse to hide there.
Excuse me, I was about to go on, but it wouldn’t be productive.
The end point is, the people I’d been referring to, for suicide vice going to prison are those exemplified, in my mind, by the former Pennsylvania Treasurer, R. Budd Dwyer, who suicided rather than face up to his crimes. He was not, AFAIK, being railroaded with false charges, just unwilling to face the penalties for his crimes.
That still sounds like a rational choice. The idea of forcing someone to stay alive so he can be made to suffer (“face the penalties for his crimes”) strikes me as barbaric, frankly. If I had to choose between spending 55 years in prison and killing myself, I’d choose the latter in a heartbeat.
I don’t agree. Suicide to avoid death by torture - sure. Suicide to avoid rape or gang rape - likewise, sure. Suicide for a political point - maybe. But suicide to avoid prison, when I’ve already lived through sharing four showers and three toilets with 59 other men? Especially in the case of having done the crime - sorry, does not compute.
On an only marginally related topic - do you oppose or support the death penalty?
Inigo, **Neutronstar ** and Raftpeople
You all had good arguments and I’d reply to each individually but really I have only one answer. You all paint pictures of the horrors that might lead a person to suicide. And you’re right. But by doing that you’re acknowledging on some level that suicide is a bad thing and is only not such a bad thing when counterbalanced by a terrible evil like an excruciating depression. I’m not disagreeing. I said in my post that you’d have to know the context to know if suicide was the lesser of two evils. And I would never dream of moralizing against a person who was in terrible agony no matter what they did.
The people I was really arguing against in my post were those who were saying that suicide is just a choice like any other and that there is no responsibility for anyone to stay alive if they don’t want to. I think that’s just a flip and callous attitude. Our lives are not just our own and it’s just a fool who thinks so. The pain that a suicide causes those who love him is every bit as real and relentless and hopeless as his own. And that’s just one example of the thought and care we owe to the world that we may never have asked for but is nevertheless our own.
[QUOTE=Q.N. Jones]
By this standard, I should have offed myself ages ago. After all, I’ve been in intensive therapy and trying new drugs for two years now, and I’m still not better. Sometimes the stuff they gave me made me really sick, mentally and physically. Now I’m on something that works better, but I’m not well yet.
But you’re right–the doctors and friends and family who have helped to remind me that there’s still hope and value in life, who’ve hung in there with me through some very dark times, they’re just being selfish. :rolleyes:
Please don’t be snarky with me, as I don’t remember being snarky with you. I also don’t remember calling loved ones of a potential suicide “selfish” for wanting to keep them around, either. I think that’s pretty human.
That said, I knew someone who tried 5 different SSRIs, went to a therapist, even tried acupuncture and EST, and still wound up offing himself, because nothing worked. He tried and tried, and nothing could cure him of his mental illness. I know that’s anecdotal evidence, but I haven’t really seen much else offered in this thread.
What is it about having done the crime that would make the suffering any more bearable?
More to the point, though - just because you don’t think prison is all that bad doesn’t mean no one else does. The popular image of prison isn’t exactly a friendly one; it’s portrayed as a place where you’re likely to be knifed for looking at someone the wrong way, unless you kick someone’s ass on the first day or become someone’s bitch. Decades of beatings and forced sodomy sound a little worse than a tour in the Navy. Whether that’s accurate is something I don’t know first-hand and never intend to find out.
I’m fine with it in principle, but considering the problems with how it’s actually applied in practice (death row inmates being proved innocent by journalism students, apparent racial bias in sentencing, etc.), I’d prefer to combine the death penalty and life imprisonment into a single sentence, and let the convicted criminal choose either execution or life in prison.
Generally speaking, severely depressed people often don’t have enough energy or motivation to take on the task of suicide. Medication can help provide motivation and energy…
Actually, I didn’t intend that to be directed at you, but at the poster who made the comment about selfishness.
I completely understand how and why this happens, and I think it’s a shame, but I don’t make any judgment against people like your friend.
What I take exception to is the attitude that it’s selfish or ignorant to try to offer hope and encouragement to go on to a person in misery who is contemplating suicide.