Traditionally “sexual communism” has been “old guys get to bang young women” - see the Oneida colonies for an example of sexual communism - or the more modern The Family.
This remarks leads us to discuss the biggest fallacy in ALL these bitter, allegedly misogynistic, threads, and not just in these threads but IRL too.
I’ll give the TL;DR first, since I can see this is going to be lengthy: Those nasty bitter cynical misogynistic males weren’t born that way (mostly, probably). Many of them could have been actual nice guys in their earlier lives, but socially awkward (or maybe just short), and were largely or totally unsuccessful with the females for years and years and years – then they become cynical, angry, and bitter. Not the other way around. They aren’t losers with the ladies because they are bitter (well, now they are, but it wasn’t always that way). No, they were nice guys but became bitter after year upon year of – nothing – and thus they evolved from nice guys to “Nice Guys™”.
[/end of TL;DR]
It’s so easy to snark and revile at those bitter cynical people like OP, and to tell them: Well of course you’re never going to get any “chicks”, “fat” or otherwise, if you’re going to be like that!
Here’s the fallacy: Do you think all these bitter, angry, love-starved, sex-starved guys were always like that? Do you think they were born like that? Probably not, usually, I would suppose. How do you think they got that way in the first place?
These are people who might well have been “nice guys” [not “Nice Guys™”] in their earlier existence – you know, those nerdy or socially awkward males who, as flodnak put it:
(Okay, we’ll overlook that fact that the above quote was discussing Rick Santorum. It could be any number of other dweebs.)
What do you think happens when they get rejected – can’t hardly ever even get a coffee date, let alone get an actual relationship going – for [del]month after month after month[/del] year after year after year? It is any surprise that these guys are going to get more than a little bit bitter by and by?
Then they evolve from “nice guy” into “Nice Guy™” – the embittered long-term rejects, reviled and demonized by everyone. They are accused of “feeling entitled to sex”, although I challenge anyone here to find a case where one of them actually said or wrote that. See this rather recent thread, titled “Nice Guys” vs. Decent, Albeit Clueless, Men" for discussion. Look at kunilou’s vacuous attempt to be helpful:
Look: “There’s nothing actually wrong with you, but I have zero attraction toward you.”
What happens when one hears that over and over, year after year after year? That might actually (and does) happen to a socially awkward male. Is it true that he “There’s nothing actually wrong with you”? If so, then why no relationship after years and years? Or is it false that “There’s nothing actually wrong with you”? In which case, all the friends that said that were flat-out talking BSDL (Bullshit, doubletalk and lies).
Answer: They just might turn into that guy that Loach knows:
If these males can go for so many years without a match, does prove that they were, in face, just jerks all along? If so, why didn’t their so-called “friends” tell them, along with some actual helpful suggestions – as opposed to kunilou’s vacuous pablum?
More correctly, they were “promised” a relationship (never sex explicitly, but of course that’s implied). All their so-called “friends” (all of whom perceived from the moment they met that such a guy had no chance of ever getting [del]laid[/del] a girlfriend) assured them that they just need to get out more and meet more females; surely there is someone in one of your classes [or wherever] who is interested in you; there are plenty of available people to meet (notwithstanding that the majority of those are in China); “plenty of fish”; you’ll meet that special someone eventually – All BSDL! These “nice guys” hear that for years from all their “friends”, who knew all along it was BSDL. Look again at kunilou’s last line:
“Assuming they’re actually nice and not “Nice Guys” things will click for them eventually.”
Lies! Bullshit, doubletalk and lies! BSDL!
These guys aren’t asking “where’s all this sex I’m entitled to?” – they’re asking “where’s all this sex [a proxy for a relationships, really] that I’ve been promised all these years?” Yes, it takes a while for a naive young adult (especially a socially awkward one) to understand that “things will click for [you] eventually” is just a vacuous anodyne lie.
No, these guys don’t have any “women friends who could help out”. That’s unheard of. If they have any female acquaintances at all (a rare case in itself), they will offer nothing more than the anodyne BSDL, like the examples above, and maybe lots of that.
Here’s a rich one: “Just hang tight another six weeks until the wedding. You’re certain to meet someone there.” Yes, some-female-one really said that.
(The more I skim through that thread (here’s the link again) the more it seems like required reading. Look carefully – see all the sweet romantic anodyne lies there.)
Hey, I just googled site:boards.straightdope.com dry spell and got a whole page of threads discussing how long various posters’ last or current “dry spell” was – where “dry spell” is explicitly defined as time since last getting laid. Yeah, people actually talk about that – a lot. I’m inclined to interpret “sexual dry spell” as a metaphor that actually means “not having an actual relationship” for a long time. The more common response seems to be along the lines “hey, you got hands? So shut up and masturbate. What more do you need?” Um… y’know, sitting home alone jerking off doesn’t really substitute for all the things a relationship can be. I see anger and hostility in so many responses like that.
Enough. So:
Summary: Even actual nice guys get turned down incessantly for years on end, until they become angry, bitter, and resentful, and evolve into the reviled “Nice Guy™”. – Can you blame them? “Entitlement” has nothing to do with it.
So… it is all the women’s fault, after all?
Turned down, again and again, the ‘for something they feel entitled to’, is totally implied.
Read some basic psychology, resentment and bitterness arise when you do A and don’t get B.
But ONLY when you feel A entitles you to B.
So it couldn’t be that these men get turned down again, and again, because they can’t own that they DO feel short changed for something they had every right to EXPECT. In other words they feel entitled to! Women are pretty good at picking that up.
The OP essentially amounts to “How dare fat chicks think they’re in my league! I, as a short man, am of a higher class of fuckability than fat chicks!”
Given that, all this discussion about “nice guys” is beside the point.
The OP finds that the women he wants to fuck don’t want to fuck him, and the women who might agree to fuck him are not of his preference. It’s neither a tragedy nor an injustice.
(Quickly stands and sings)
<I>Comrades, come rally!
This is the time and place!
The Internationale
Unites the human race!
You say this like you’re revealing some big truth to the ladies, like maybe we’ve never considered what it means to be socially awkward. I’m going to blow your mind here - but many women know first hand that being socially awkward means that they will not have social success. And even women who are not socially awkward will still have had that experience of wanting to date someone who doesn’t want them back.
Everyone has experienced social awkwardness in their lives, even if it was a brief weekend in fifth grade. It is not a special distinction that absolves the awkward one from making any effort to learn some social graces. Embracing the “Socially Awkward” label does not obligate people - even fat women - to accept the Awkward One’s physical embraces.
If you want social success, stop blaming everyone else and learn some social skills.
Which is why they’ll never get any (sex or companionship) until they change their attitudes. Really, this thread makes me see a certain poster’s political opinions in a new light. Almost as informative as him coming out as an anti-vaxxer…
Back when I was an overweight and awkward youth I learned that I could get as much sex as I could wheedle and cajole for. I never felt entitled to it; I recognized that I was going to need to work hard, lie, and otherwise fool women into sleeping with me.
Then I grew up, learned that women are people first, and many would happily boink me once we became friends.
If any of these boys are actually looking for advice the old bit about being comfortable and confident in yourself is the one thing that really works. And the women can tell if you’re faking.
Lots of ‘interesting’ :dubious: posts. But the original question almost has to be satirical, exaggerating the modern concept of ‘rights’ to an absurd degree to illustrate how sill it is in general. Doesn’t it? If other people are attracted to you sexually they are, if they aren’t not. The idea they need an explanation for that in terms of ‘fairness’ or ‘consistency’ is ridiculous. Is the satire based on the recent thread about ‘racism’ if people have some racial taste in who they’re attracted to? That one was around 5% valid in some limited cases. I guess somebody is looking for one totally absurd to see if anyone takes the bait.
No, what I really think I see in the OP’s tirade is a sorry, angry, lonely guy, consumed in umpty-ump years of bitterness, but who may have once been a perfectly cromulent person (maybe). But due to non-stop rejection, perhaps due to social awkwardness or maybe just really because being short, became embittered over the years. (If not this OP in particular, then certainly many other males.) The ugliness of the OP’s statement now is reflecting that.
My whole main point in all my posts in these recent threads is that most of these guys probably weren’t angry bitter misogynists in the first place, but were unsuccessful in romance anyway. So it’s fallacious to blame their failures on their bad attitudes – even though that may obviously the case now. And that’s where I make the argument that they’re being demonized and vilified. AND that they’re hurting for lack of real relationships, with all the companionship, affection, and intimacy that that entails – not just for lack of access to tits ass and pussy. And, well, yes, that too.
ETA:
No, I didn’t exactly say that. What I am saying is: Hey, can you blame them for getting so embittered?
I’ve seldom complained about my lack of tallness, and never really viewed it as a liability. For instance, my short friend and I were both guards on the school basketball team, and he, at least, was quite popular with the girls. My local fitness gym owner is a few inches shorter than me, and he’s hitched to an attractive female partner.
However, my short sister talks about “short man syndrome”, how short men are bitter etc., and she married a tall guy that she describes as “strapping” and he has referred to me laughingly as a “little man”. Whatever, to each their own, I guess. Bleh.
Can you explain your certainty that they didn’t start out bitter and with a bad attitude? Because it’s easy to say, the rejection made them this way. As easy as saying they have been seeing women as prey, which they’re entitled to, and meet with only rejection as a result. And now, rather than own any of their own bullshit, they just aggressively project it onto ‘women’ !
Your certainty they were once just nice guys flies in the face of the experience of most women, in my opinion. Actual nice fellas don’t project their bullshit onto others and blame their failures with women on the women. They learn from their experiences, mature and become better dates.
Bitter and angry are choices. No matter how tall you aren’t or how socially awkward you are. And it’s the choice of neither a mature nor a nice guy.
Your certainty that males see females as “prey” is at least as misandrist as all the misogynist crap one sees all over. No, it’s not just you at all. Look at that nearby thread (the one about female’s responses to males simply looking at them). This isn’t new at all; “feminists” have complained for at least 40 years that I know, that males “undress them with their eyes”. That’s some kind of paranoia there. For a nicer and more refreshing view, dig through that thread again for some of Renee’s comments.
Every bit as much, there has been endless discussion, long before the Internet, in singles’ magazines and Usenet (soc.singles), about the socially clueless males who haven’t done a thing wrong yet can’t get a date to save their lives. Did you think I’m imagining that? And, somehow, a lot of them never figure it out. One thing seems certain: There’s no feedback. A guy can get turned down for dates a hundred times and never be given a word of feedback why. His so-called friends won’t tell him, usually (or won’t tell him truthfully). Moreover, a guy can get the occasional one-time dates that never lead to a second date – thus, a chance to actually socialize with a female for a while and try to initiate a relationshop – and never get a word of feedback as to why they don’t get a second date. For males who don’t get it instinctively, they just can’t learn it.
All those “Relationships” self-help books you see on shelves from horizon to horizon at Barnes & Noble? Total pablum, bullshit, doubletalk, and lies. Every female is different, right? Yet they say that, somehow, a male is supposed to be able to learn something from each date, for how to conduct himself at the next date. See the vast disconnect there?
And never mind whose “fault” it is – you can’t see how demoralizing and embittering it is to live a life so thoroughly love-starved for 10, 20, 30, 40 years on end? That’s heartless. These aren’t the guys who just have a six-month “dry spell”.
Okay, I’ll abstain on the remark that some females may have it just as bad. I only see the males perspective here, being ostensibly one of them. I can’t really “relate” to how females experience that. I’ll leave one note in passing on that though: One of the most standard “advices” for love-starved males is “Lower your standards dude! You can’t always get a #10” (ETA: Old-style roll-eyes). Yet hell’s fury rains down upon anyone (especially any male) who dares to suggest that a female “lower her standards”. Re-read this thread; it’s right here in this thread.
There must have been some reason for it. There’s, like, millions of women out there. If none of them dig you, is it more likely that there’s something wrong with all of them, or with you?
Yes. They are not entitled to anyone’s special affection, and they have no right to be nastier to people as a result.
Lots of people have been dealt a shitty hand. But not everyone is going around posting hateful OPs. This may shock a few folks, but short guys who can’t get laid don’t have a monopoly on the blues! There are a ton of Dopers who have sadder tales of woe than the OP and are a hell of a lot nicer. So I’m going to save my compassion and sympathy for those folks. I have no fucks to give for the OP.
Pause for a moment and consider that folks like the OP make other miserable sexually frustrated dudes look bad. He’s a walking stereotype. So your self-righteous scolding should be directed towards him, not the posters who are reacting negatively to him.
The OP could be a nice-guy-gone-bad. Or he could be lifelong dick. Just because you choose to assume the former doesn’t mean the rest of us are wrong for assuming the latter.
I know they’re hurting for affection, intimacy, etc. But they only have themselves to blame, and yes, I blame them – this is an entirely fixable problem for 99% of lonely short men, and 99% of lonely overweight men, etc. Until they figure out that the problem is themselves (and not their height or weight), and not others, or society in general, then they will never have a chance of success.
No, undressing women with your eyes, as obnoxious and immature as it may be is not what I meant by, ‘treating women like prey’.
I meant as in, “Where’s mine? I’m entitled to bag one!” Women are pretty good at picking up on that vibe. Whereas the guys putting it out, are, to a man, utterly unaware!
There are people still bitter because they aren’t tall enough to be air hostesses, or that they didn’t get drafted to the NBA, or because they didn’t get into Harvard, didn’t make head cheerleader, etc. They’re only bitter, after all this time, because they thought it was there’s! By definition, that’s entitlement!. That’s where bitterness is born.
We all know people like this. And they’re all lame, and immature, and still blaming others. These guys are the same thing exactly.
I don’t know where you get the definition that bitterness == entitlement.
You have no evidence that “most of these guys” were not shitty misogynists to begin with. That’s just something you made up.
OTOH, we who are jumping on the OP in this thread can point to his actual shitty misogyny. The OP’s crap attitude is not something we imagined. His insulting and entitled attitude is right there on display from word one.
Therefore, it is not fallacious to blame his failure in romance on his bad attitude. The reason the OP can’t get laid is because he’s the kind of guy who thinks fat chicks should be honored that summoned them.
And again - every person on the planet has been rejected and lonely at some time. If the OP chooses to respond by wallowing in bitterness - that’s entirely his own damn fault.
This is something else you’ve made up. The OP isn’t complaining about lacking affection and intimacy. All the OP is complaining about is that he doesn’t want to lower his standards to get laid and also fat chicks are acting all uppity, like affirmative action queens.