Agreed.
And the fact that the board didn’t previously object to a particular bigoted slur is not a reason why it shouldn’t do so now, or in the future; though I agree that a change in policy should be clearly posted as such.
Hari isn’t a mod at this point. He wasn’t setting rules. Without the details, I would say either Hari made a mistake or you misinterpreted or misunderstood what he said. Does someone actually want to link to the final Shodan warning? I find what’s been in this thread to be pretty much hearsay.
I don’t want to regulate any words. I would hope it wasn’t really needed. But to some people the C-Word is on par with the N-Word (or just a notch below) and to others, its not that big deal. We will be addressing this mess, but I’m not sure how as of yet. I also dislike bright line rules. But I’m just one member of the Mod team.
Generally speaking it is a word I avoid, especially in writing, but I largely avoid cursing in writing in general. IRL, when I get excited, I can still sound like the sailor I use to be. Even then I don’t use the C-word. Mostly F-bombs.
You recognize that this doesn’t mean that you didn’t offend anybody, right, or that nobody thought you were sexist? Here’s a handy tip: if you almost always restrict your use of a term to people to whom the term doesn’t apply, you’re acknowledging that there’s a problem with using it. It’s not a matter of audience. It’s a matter of the speaker and the attitudes thereof.
Which people on this board have said it’s the worst word ever? And how is its ranking relevant to whether or not it’s misogynistic?
I disagree heavily. It is good that mods don’t take banning lightly. Places that do die out. It’s good that they don’t just make bold subjective decisions, as that encourages modding by emotion, which is antithetical to the concept of intellectualism and fighting ignorance. Moderation, especially at the extremes, should be based on logic and firm criteria. Sure, some level of subjectivity is unavoidable, but it shouldn’t be the primary aspect. That sort of thing tends to create actual echo chambers and ruin communities.
That’s not to say that we can’t refine the criteria. I’m all for continuing to point out that bigoted stuff isn’t as subjective as some people act like it is. I do think that, given the anti-misogyny rule, words like “cunt” and variants shouldn’t be allowed. It may not be quite as bad as the n-word, but it’s widely considered misogynistic in the same sense. It’s one of those words that the disadvantaged group has asked us not to use. This sets it apart from words like “fuck,” “shit,” etc.
(And, note to @mordecaiB, this has changed over the years. Not that sometimes you can’t say words with your mates that would be shitty in public. But it’s been only the last decade or so that I’ve seen “cunt” take on the “near n-word” associations by the wider public, rather than just a really bad cuss word.)
@What_Exit: the n-word, if actually spelled out and used, seems to be a forbidden word in practice, even if it’s not on a list. I also suspect that the f-word for gay people is treated that way, along with some ethnic slurs. The claim is that “cunt” is of the same kind. And, in the US at least, that does seem to me to be the prevailing view by society in general and women in particular.
I do get your interpretation that the Q reference lessens it. I suspect that was why the word was used. But, still, is “Qunt” a word that would have been used if Green were male? And how does it play with our desire to be more welcoming of women?
I’m leaning towards not allowing it in this case as it was used towards a woman. But I could easily see someone calling a male politician a Qunt also. But that still has some serious misogynistic trappings to it anyway. In general, I am probably going to end up agreeing it isn’t allowed if that is the way the staff leans. But I’m against a list of words that are banned. I dislike the concept in general.
But I think the difference in this case would be like if I relate the story that Papa John got fired because the Corporate Board asked him to not be racist and he said the word “n****r”. (true story). If the Mods said under that context use of the word was acceptable then I get it.
But it seems in this case, one poster could call AOC a c*** and another call MTG a q*** and the first one would be modded (even if just a note) and the second would be ignored (like in this case where 3 mods said “nothing to see here”).
I actually agree with you. I think a modnote will be forthcoming in this case and more importantly it will explain such behavior, even being “cute” will not be tolerated. But again, not my decision alone. I do think (thanks to your thread) I dismissed a problematic post.
And I will argue against a banned word list, but I’m of course fine with context is the issue.
A person commenting on that event would not be using the word; they would be mentioning it. There’s a very big difference between the two. Mention of a word is almost always acceptable, even if use of it is not.
Agreeing with that. And context can otherwise matter. “Cunt” is a very old word in English, and has not always been used as an insult. It’s the use as an insult that I’m objecting to; and I also wouldn’t object to someone reporting that, say, it was in the news that someone had used it as an insult.
So I don’t think it’s a matter of banning the word. I think it’s a matter of banning its use as an insult.
No. it applied to the people I use it with just fine. Just because in your circle of people it’s bad, doesn’t mean everyone else sees it that way. Maybe you haven’t noticed, but men tend to swear around other men more than around women. Strangely enough, many women don’t have a problem with it either. There’s one on this board in particular that uses it constantly and has even used it in ATMB. So, yes, it’s a matter of audience. If a swear word is ok with your audience, it’s fine. If it’s not, it’s not.
People are comparing it to n****r, which is pretty high on the bad word list. Problem being it’s not used like n$$$$r is used. It’s simply a swear word, like motherfucker. Which other swear word on this board draws as much negative reaction as cunt? Absolutely none.
You’ve seen some people take it as such. Cunt is in no way close to n****r in the list of bad words, even in the US. Hell, it’s not even close to wetback or towelhead. It’s simply a swear word.
I don’t think anyone is asking for a list of words to be banned. We already saw how that worked out, which was not very well. It’s just the one word people are talking about. Truthfully, I don’t think most people would care if you kept it to the Pit. But that means stomping down on cutesy spelling by someone tries to slip it into threads outside the Pit. Cutesy spellings are just a slightly different form of rules lawyering or the “I’m not touching you” game.
And to complete this: so far as I’m aware, it’s not forbidden on this board to spell out the n-word fully when mentioning and discussing its use by others. Most people do not, but it’s a matter of personal judgment.
I don’t agree at all. That’s just the kind of misrepresentation of U.K. usage that was debunked upthread.
In the U.S., it is used exclusively as a severe misogynistic slur, exactly analogous the n-word.
In the U.K., it can be used in just this same way as a severe misogynistic slur when directed at a woman. So when used that way, it is exactly analogous to the n-word. In the U.K. it can be used in other ways in different contexts, but not toward women, and generally not within earshot of women.
It is certainly not “simply a swear word” in either country.
It’s been one of the very few words almost never used, all through my life, in multiple parts of the USA. I know plenty of people who use “fuck” as if it were “a” or “the” but who absolutely never use “cunt”.
Not in my experience, as I explained above. Can it be used that way? Yes, of course. Is it always used that way? No.
As I said above, it’s used like that in the US also. And it is a swear word. If I hit my thumb with a hammer and yell “motherfuckingcunt” I’m swearing, not talking about women or mothers or sex at all.
Yeah, who would have thought that in a country with over 300 million people that there would be differences in language use?
All this is beside the point. Our personal experiences are going to play no role in this decision. All I want out of this is for the mods to make a firm decision about the use of the word. Not some wishy washy we’ll know it when we see it ruling. If they do the latter, we’ll just keep repeating this thread over and over, just as we already have in the past.
Ditto. There’s no way it’s “just a swear word” in the US.
I’d be pretty shocked if someone said that. No, I don’t think I’d take offense. But i don’t believe that is a common use of the word in the US. And… I probably would wonder how else the person used that word.
Moderation requires a degree of discretion. Yes, that means mods will sometimes get it wrong. But “bright lines only” leads to posters gaming the rules and a lot of other bad outcomes.
True, of course. But that doesn’t mean you were correct to say that. in the US in general, “It’s simply a swear word.” There may well indeed be social groups in the US in which it’s used casually; but that doesn’t mean it’s generally so used in the country as a whole.
Indeed.
I would however like to have sufficient guidelines to let me know whether it makes sense for me to report uses of this particular word, with or without weird spellings, which I think are out of line.
Something you say out of earshot of anyone else has no relevance to anything.
If your mother were close by when hit your thumb with a hammer, would you be equally likely to scream “FUCK” as to scream “C***”? Do you think her feelings about you screaming both of those two words (even though directed at nobody in particular) would be the same?
Cunt is less offensive than ni**** only because being misogynistic is still slightly more acceptable than being racist.
I’m not aware of any U.S. dialect in which the word is not a severe misogynistic slur. The fact that individual habitual usage may vary is not relevant - some people just don’t care about consensus usage in their dialect, they may be insensitive to offense or deliberately aim to offend. That does not alter the objective meaning of the word in their native dialect.
[ I am having a flashback to a prior thread on this topic. This was the point where Max_S chipped in to insist that words have no objective meaning. ]