An argument could be made that many men see and use women as accessories to acting out masculinity and achieving social status, in a way women don’t do men. It’d then lead men to being unhappier.
Not that this would garner much sympathy.
Pretty much. Because men get rejected for the silliest and pettiest of things. Granted, rejecting a woman for being fat is stupid, but let’s look all the stupid things that guys get rejected for: not having enough confidence, being too shy, not tall enough, not rich enough, and so on and so forth.
I imagine that if huge numbers of women were required to talk to men and show their confidence and smoothness in order to get a date and you got rejected over and over again for these petty reasons, they too would be LOUD and PISSED about it. But they don’t… so there ya go.
I think there are such people, but I don’t think such people are being reasonable.
I disagree that this is a male thing. Think, for example, about women and their “dream weddings.” Some women view men as proof that they are feminine and desirable and as people to use. Other women just want love and sex and a good relationship and are devastated when they can’t have them. Still others want picket fences and babies and the like.
And I think a single woman, especially when she gets to be my age (39) or older is much more likely to be the object of pity and derision than a single man is.
Kind of an embarrassing anecdote: After my husband died, I wore my rings for a while (including his ring on my thumb), but I got to a point where I decided it was time to take them off. Part of me would then find myself almost ashamed that people might think I was single and therefore pathetic. I really horrified myself with these thoughts, but I don’t think they sprang up out of nowhere, sadly.
Sure, but no one’s arguing that waiting around for the world to change is the only thing you should be doing. Imagine a skilled African American trying to find a job a century ago in Alabama. On the one hand, there’s the pragmatic concern of trying to feed yourself. Which you do, because that’s what you have to do. But it sucks for everyone if someone who should be a doctor or engineer is stuck cleaning toilets because of a malignant social setup, and it’s not enough to simply toss your hands up in the air and go “well that’s just how things are, pointless to imagine them being different.”
The analogy only goes so far–there is no campaign of mass terrorism against shy guys. And, yeah, just as the smartest kid in school will have to make do with being a janitor, guys who don’t naturally fit into traditional masculine roles will have to make do for the time being with trying to fit into their prescribed place to get by (Again, though, you universalize your own experience of “it was tough but I could make it happen!” to everyone, without knowing everyone’s individual circumstances.) There’s no reason, though, that you can’t be working to create the intellectual and social foundation for the future. And if you don’t offer that, people end up mired in bitterness, which is bad for everyone.
Men are wise never to talk about it if they are emotionally hungry. They’ll almost always be torn to shreds by men and women alike. I’d say always but I’m sure someone here can eke out one or two rare anecdotes to the contrary.
Women have support groups; when they’re emotionally hungry they turn to each other.
So, just to get things clear, is there any evidence that could ever be presented to you that would demonstrate you are wrong? I’m not saying how likely or unlikely it is. I’m asking what evidence could ever exist that would make you say, “Huh, I was wrong about that”?
But, again, are you saying Marion shouldn’t have to tell anyone he’s hungry? People should just know it somehow?
I’d argue that because of the belief that of course a woman can find a man, it’s the rare woman who can’t maybe women feel uncomfortable admitting to it? If it’s so rare, than the women who aren’t having luck may think that, “Oh god, how messed up am I that I’m in this position?”
The skilled Black American in Alabama of a century ago is justifiably bitter about a society which discounts his or her true worth (say, at being a doctor) because of an irrelevant factor - the colour of his skin.
A shy guy who does not get dates is not analogous. He is not having his true worth discounted by an irrelevant factor, because shyness is not irrelevant to one’s true worth at getting dates: getting dates is part and parcel of being outgoing.
It seems what you are saying is that people deserve a happy relationship, and when they don’t get one, they have every right to be pissed off. Obviously, in some sense, everyone deserves happiness and health. That doesn’t mean that they have a right to expect it. I can feel sympathy for someone who smokes, for example, knowing well how hard it is to quit, and how many fail to do so - but that doesn’t mean I will not encourage them to quit. It is obviously in their own interest. Same with attempting to overcome shyness - if you want romantic satisfaction, there is really no other way but to make the attempt. No-one is ever simply going to think “yeah, it is just so unfair that you don’t have a date, so I guess I better do my social duty and date you, even though you can’t or won’t make the effort of asking me”.
Regardless of “individual circumstances”, waiting around for society to give a shit and transform itself isn’t a good plan. The only person who really cares about your romantic success is probably going to be you, into the foreseeable future.
Sure. Go for it.
Oh and “Marion”, or whoever this is, should never, ever allow someone to know he’s emotionally hungry. That is a scarlet letter for a man. The worst possible advice anyone could ever give any man, anywhere, is to even let such signs show, whether it is in the dating scene or in any other context. And I am not exaggerating here.
Well, to be honest, and I’m not trolling here… how messed up does a woman have to be to not even get a guy to talk to her at all? That’s kinda odd.
Even so, she can find a number of support groups and even women’s magazines that will help her out - things that clearly are the equivalent of PUA groups… but how many people criticize Glamour Magazine?
Well, thanks, but I’m asking YOU to describe the type of evidence that you would find compelling. You’re making lots of claims. I’m asking if any of your claims are falsifiable. Is there anything that could ever convince you that you are wrong?
Show me more than anecdotal stories of women comforting or helping out guys who are any shade of “emotionally hungry”.
How’s that for starters?
Edited: added the “or” part to make it more fair.
I don’t even understand what you are asking for. Show you what, exactly?
You don’t just want “anecdotal stories,” which means you want… ? Facts? What sort of facts will you accept? You’re speaking very vaguely.
You’re jumping from descriptive to prescriptive.
How would you respond if I said this: “A poor guy who does not get dates is not analogous. He is not having his true worth discounted by an irrelevant factor, because poverty is not irrelevant to one’s true worth at getting dates: getting dates is part and parcel of being well-off.”
It’d be just as true, and just as irrelevant. You would have a stronger argument if it went like this:
Being outgoing leads to meeting more people, which inherently leads to going on more dates. Since men who fall outside traditional masculine roles are typically less outgoing than the typical masculine type, their disproportionate lack of dating is an inherent and immutable feature of a society where people are individuals who must expend energy to interact with each other. Therefore any concerns about the situation are invalid and pointless.
Pretty persuasive, and a couple pages ago I made a suggestion in line with it, that guys simply increase the number of people they approach to increase the number of dates they get (it’s the best short term strategy that works, which should be the big takeaway from this thread!)
The issue with it, though, is that it doesn’t address the point that even holding number of potential partners met constant, a shy guy will have a lower success rate. And that’s through no fault of his own, and has more to do with how society defines what a man should be. (As always, women face similar issues.)
[quote=“Malthus, post:329, topic:572932”]
It seems what you are saying is that people deserve a happy relationship, and when they don’t get one, they have every right to be pissed off.
[/QUOTE.]
I’ve clearly failed to communicate my point, because that’s a flawed reading of what I intend to get across. I’d strongly disagree with that statement on several levels. Apologies, and I’ll try to be clearer.
But it isn’t even remotely true. Being well-off is an advantage, but lots of poor guys get dates. Lots of well-off guys don’t get dates.
Being poor isn’t a date-preventer remotely similar to being excessively shy. It is a disadvantage, but one which can certainly be compensated for.
Of course a shy guy will have a “lower success rate” than someone who is naturally outgoing - all else being equal. But unless you want to be a make-out artist and carve niches in bedposts, why would you care? The concern isn’t that people have some sort of right to equal success at attracting sexual partners, it is that some people are precluded, by shyness, from having any at all. The only cure for that is to try. They may never be Cassanovas; but then, who is? This is an area where some success at some point is good.
What = “women comforting or helping out guys who are any shade of emotionally hungry”.
Show facts that demonstrate women show the same sympathy for emotionally hungry men that men show toward emotionally hungry women. What is so complex about that?
What would it look like, if it existed?
Are you my example of a man showing sympathy?
The whole issue is kinda a side-show – no-one dates someone else because they sympathize with their emotional hunger.
This sentence is meaningless. That’s what’s complex about it. “Men show sympathy toward emotionally hungry women”? What the heck does that mean? How can one say whether it’s true or false at all, or vice-versa with respect to men and women?
Much of this advice has quantity in mind. If it were simply a matter of meeting ‘The One’ shy guys would find they are in good company.
Now off to start my emo band, Emotionally Hungry, then watch the groupies come rolling in!