** thewhotothewhatnow**
So you think joking about drugging a woman into a coma and raping her is okay? God, how stupid is it to not find this HIGH-larious!
And comparing women to objects—um, yeah, get back to me when you’re not shooting down your own cause. The excuses are old. Try some new ones.
Shockingly enough, the dude wants to mansplain rape jokes.
Mansplain?
Do you feel this strongly about any jokes involving traumatic events? Lots of people make light hearted jokes about murder and assault. Or is it just date rape that makes you feel so angry?
I have nothing but pity for someone that thinks 1200 acquaintances like these are “friends”.
The expertise you develop in superficially connecting with that many people has almost nothing to do with long term relationships, and someone that relies on the skills derived therein is fooling themselves if they think much of that will transfer to lifelong friendships.
It’s like spending all your time in martial arts developing your yellow belt skills. Yes, you’ll have it all over people who haven’t any martial skills, but you embarrass yourself in front of people who’ve been developing and advancing their skills all their lives.
Do you think that rape might differ from these events in some way that you’re missing? Maybe?
Why don’t you just tell me instead of asking stupid questions?
Context, context, context. Joke about roofies on a message board? Potentially funny. Joke about roofies in a bar where date rape is a realistic possibility? Tacky at best.
I’ve looked into this “scene” as well. Male, for the record. Personally, I think that its both fascinating – I’ll explain – and, surely, insulting to women.
It’s fascinating because its an attempt to analyze the psychology of “relationships” (albeit, presumably very brief ones), and the psychology of attraction. Many of the people involved in this seem to be in it for the money (those who run the websites, publish the books, and try to develop their personal “brand”) – they know that there are, oh, probably 2.5 billion men out there who wish they could have more sex. As far as demographics go, marketing-wise, you can’t find one much larger.
Its also interesting in that much of the stuff I’ve seen isn’t so much mysoginistic (I’ve not heard of the aforementioned Roissy, but I’ll look him up – so he’s not THAT famous. What a beta. 
) as it is…cameraderie. The tone of many of the sites I’ve checked out (and this really amounts to about a half day’s worth of my average surfing – I’m nowhere near well-versed on this scene, and I’m certainly not “involved” in it)…ahem, the tone of many of the websites I’ve seen on this was one almost of commiseration: “Hey, brother, we’re all in this together. We all want the same thing, and most of us never figure out how to achieve it. Buck up, and let’s figure this all out! We can’t all be rock-stars, we can’t all be wealthy CEOs – but with a little elbow grease and the right attitude, we can all sleep with beautiful women.”
Realistically, I think this began in the 1970s. There was a book (books?) published, called something like “How to Pick Up Women”, which became a sort of sleeper hit, and basically launched all of this. There are all sorts of implications to what it means (and what it means that it began in the 70s, when, it could be argued, the Feminist movement had reached its peak), and I suspect they’ve been debated since that time. I don’t really know what it means. But, like people who want to lose weight, I suspect there will always be a market for those who claim to understand the secrets of seduction; pay your money and take your chances.
Ever meet a pickup artist who led an enviable life? I haven’t. They tend to be middle-aged, and while they do appear to sleep with more women than the average man…they don’t appear to live very happy lives. Ultimately, I think its just another form of greed – or of gluttony, perhaps. And it requires that they go to bars every fucking day, spend most of their time getting rejected, and maybe get to sleep with a hot girl, once.
Bottom line, Casanova was cool because of the OTHER things he did, not because he had sex with a lot of women. And Roissy, I’ll warrant, is no Casanova.
I don’t see anything wrong with this. Actually, I think it’s great. I think anything involving people working together and supporting each other for a common goal is great.
Most men grow up with the idea that “beautiful women” are on some higher plane. They hear things like “she’s out of your league.” Even as a kid I thought this was a bullshit concept. Who ever wants to be told that they’re stuck in one “league” and beautiful women are in another? In other words, “these things are reserved for somebody else…you can’t have them.” Nobody wants to be told that. And men are going to figure out a way to get whatever people tell them they’re not allowed to have.
You don’t need to go to bars, as it has been explained already…you can do pickup anywhere.
What? Casanova may have done a lot of other things, but to this very day, his name has one singular meaning, and it’s not “gambler,” “traveler” or “Freemason.” When people invoke his name they are talking about his skill at seduction.
Everyone leaves your statement as-is. “Shy guys should work on becoming more confident and decisive.” But then they walk off into the sunset and the poor shy guy is stuck going “…but HOW???” What makes PUA groundbreaking is that it’s saying “Here is a list of VERY specific steps to follow, and the logic explaining why those steps work, to become more confident and decisive.”
This is because traditionally in society, women are viewed as having “the power”, they hold the key to sex and men are chasing women to hopefully get a chance for women to open the gates and allow them to have sex. If you don’t agree with this, I’m sure any guy who’s had his girlfriend/wife withhold sex to get her way (whether malicious or in a funny sitcom “you’re sleepin on the couch tonight buddy!” way) would back it up.
Really? You’ve never met men who want a submissive “good little wife”? You’ve never met guys with “yellow fever” who want asian wives because they (wrongly, I know lots of asian chicks who defy the stereotype hardcore haha) believe they’ll be quiet little shrinking violet types? You’ve never met any desperate guys who have a crush on a girl and wishes he had the chance to shower her with affection and tell her every day how beautiful she is because he’s dying to pour tons of validation onto someone (Magnolia style “I have so much love to give, I just don’t know where to put it!”)?
I have a feeling most people would agree that we can find more of those guys than we can find women who want a shrinking violet type man-child they have to make all the decisions for.
I’ll say it again because you’re not understanding: Status is not your living space, it’s not your car, it’s not your Ti-Vo. As long as you keep defining status as those things, which is understandable because that’s what society has drilled into our heads since we turned on a TV set for the first time (“is your life incomplete? That’s because you’re not high status enough, but buy this new BMW and you will be!”), you will not be able to understand what I’m trying to say.
The famous rant of “You are not your fucking khakis.” in Fight Club is attempting to explain the same thing. We’ve been brought up to believe that that stuff is what makes us high-status, but it’s not. It’s your core, your inner value. You can have high status while being a hippy living in a dirt hut, if the people that meet you respect you as a person.
Thanks, I’m trying not to present this stuff in a fun light because a lot of people don’t see the good aspects of pick-up and there are plenty. It’s not for everyone, most guys who get into the game aren’t looking to become Hugh Hefner, they really just want to know “how do I get this one girl in my class at school that I think is amazing??” and are looking for a monogamous relationship with a white pickett fence. That’s not for me, but the point of pick-up is that it allows you to shape your love life into what you want.
Shit, so no dead baby jokes either, hey? 
All pick-up is doing is looking at that and saying “Interesting…olivesmarch started looking at her future-husband differently after he touched her. What are the factors that lead to that? Well, they knew eachother, so there was a comfort level built up, he wasn’t a complete stranger to her, so if we look at enough situations similar to this and find that when they go well they always involve a certain level of comfort, then we can say “if a certain level of comfort is built up, touching her under certain circumstances will likely lead to attraction”.” and then test this theory out thousands of times with a large community of men.
There used to be rules of “don’t post a technique unless you’ve field tested it at LEAST 3 times.” And then guys would read the techniques and all go out and try it out and report the results and nuances they found.
For touch, I go by the rule “If she looks at you, she wants you to talk to her. If she reciprocates talking to you, she wants you to make her laugh. If she laughs, she wants you to touch her. If she reciprocates the touch, she wants you to kiss her. If she reciprocates the kiss, she wants you to fuck her.”
So if she doesn’t reciprocate talking, you wish her a good night and move on. If she doesn’t laugh at what you’re saying the way the cheerleader laughs at anything the quarterback says even though it’s not actually funny, then you wish her a good night and move on. If she doesn’t touch you back after you touch her in a non-sexual place, then she’s not attracted enough for you to kiss her. etc. etc.
This is why people who say “I’d be pissed if some asshole stranger DARED to touch ME!!!” are making a silly argument. He wouldn’t touch you unless you were giving off signs that you were attracted to him, and then you’d be totally fine with it the way you’d be totally fine with a boyfriend or husband touching you. Objectively when you’re sitting at the computer you might not think this, but hundreds of thousands of men have tested this stuff hundreds of thousands of times.
This “that’s impossible! EVERYONE gets laid!!” attitude is why a lot of these guys feel like worthless losers. Try working in an IT/programming industry, the virgin rate is ridiculous…and most of them are NICE guys, they just don’t know what to do with women.
The thing is it’s very accurate. It’s not politically correct at all, but it’s accurate. I can look at any social situation and explain in-depth exactly why someone is attracted to another person or why people are listening to one person in the group, etc. etc. with very detailed explanations of concepts that are repeatable. Most people will automatically disregard them though and go “lolz you’re overthinkin bro!!!”, because it’s scary to think that human beings are that predictable. “We’re all special organic snowflakes with free will, how DARE you say that I’m acting X way because of Y and Z stimulus, you don’t know ME!”
This is very true. The fucked up part is when you understand the psychology behind it, you can’t even be mad at the women for their infidelity (and in fact a lot of time society will demonize the man if the woman cheats, but not demonize the woman if the man cheats). This straying is completely understandable though, usually the man stopped doing his job of attracting her. A lot of guys think once you land the girl that’s the end of it, but it’s important to keep attracting your partner (and vice-versa) when you’re in a relationship.
A lot of girls will “lose their sex drive” at some point in a relationship. When a guy runs into that situation he should look at his own behavior objectively and say “okay is it really her problem? Or have I gotten lazy and stopped doing the stuff I used to do at the start of our relationship? Have I become a sloth that’s gotten fat and wears old shirts and sits in bed waiting for her to “get horny” so we can do the same ol’ routine sex we always do? Or am I still that guy who unpredictably slips his arms around her from behind and whispers sexy things into her ear as we cook dinner together and slowly work her up to being horny?”
That’s not going to be a popular thing to say, I’m sure, but the classic marriage counseller advice is to jumpstart the romance again because people naturally let it die down as they get more comfortable with eachother.
Doing pick-up I’ve seen the absolute shittiest sides of humanity in terms of personal relationships. From good people that you would never expect it from. The stories would depress most people, because it’s like a war vet trying to talk about his experiences watching his friend get blown up by a grenade…most normal people will never experience this stuff and the war vet hopes they never will.
It’s RIDICULOUSLY easy to pick up married women. Even easier to pick up girls with boyfriends. And I’m not talking just slutty whores at the bar. Any woman who’s in a relationship where the man isn’t keeping her fully satisfied, it’s extremely easy to flip her switches.
Back when I started, I seduced lots of stone-cold sober women who’s husbands/boyfriends would be calling them while we had sex. Sometimes I knew about the significant other and didn’t care because I was going through the “being an asshole” phase, but a lot of the times the woman wasn’t wearing her ring or just completely didn’t mention anything about having a boyfriend until I asked who kept calling her. And they do this with no guilt at all. And they’ll go back to their husband/boyfriend like nothing happened at all and I may or may not ever hear from them again…sometimes they want an on-going thing, sometimes they just needed to feel sexy again because their husband/boyfriend stopped making them feel sexy. Sometimes they do it and LET their husbands find out because they hope the jealousy will re-spark the husband to chase her again.
This isn’t all women, but it is a scarily large portion of them, and this is based on tons of first and second-hand experience. It’s not their fault, they’re not bad people, they’re just driven by emotions and as a PUA I’m flipping those emotional switches quickly and their husbands/boyfriends have stopped flipping those switches.
Personally, I don’t go for married women anymore. That was back when I was first amazed pick-up worked and was testing the limits and everything, but now it crosses moral lines for me and if I know a woman is married I cut things off right away (and even give them advice on how to get their guy to start trying again). But every hot girl has a boyfriend because hot girls don’t want to be judged for being “alone”, and a phenominal amount of those boyfriends are just being kept around until the girl finds someone better.
Again this won’t be popular to say, and people will probably go “that’s just the sluts at the bar”, but it’s all over the place, nothing to do with the bar environment. The married chick that works in the cubicle next to you can be just as horny/frustrated in her love life as any other woman. She’ll never admit it (not even to herself), and you don’t have to believe it, but this is experience talking.
Thing is there’s nothing wrong with it, that’s not a judgement on my part. Women are sexual beings, of COURSE they’ll chase what turns them on if the circumstances are right. So if you’re a guy in a relationship, BE that thing that turns them on, or you’ll be that guy phoning her while she’s getting railed from behind.
Hell, there’s a whole set of techniques based around picking up a taken girl, for guys who actively want to do it. They’re fascinating and work, but are disturbing and very arguably immoral.
Yes, what a woman says in her sober frontal lobed logical state on a message board is ENTIRELY different from what she does in a heat-of-the-moment emotional state. Women and white-knight men can deny this all they want, but I see it all the time. The woman will backwards rationalize her actions afterward to make it okay. That’s why we say “You should come over and we’ll watch that movie we talked about” instead of “You should come over so I can fuck you in the ass.” We both know we’re going to have sex, neither of us wants to watch the movie (as evidenced by HER often jumping MY bones as soon as the opening credits come on). But to say “Sure!” to the ass-fucking one is to admit that she wants sex and then she feels like a slut because society has told her only sluts want sex. So she says “Sure!” to the movie and then afterwards she can say “well I came over to watch a movie and it “just happened”!”
We call it anti-slut-defense, or ASD, and it’s completely a result of a very harsh judgemental society that still has silly “sex is bad” notions. Women brought up in highly repressed societies (like asian chicks brought up in traditional house-holds) will have high ASD, whereas women brought up in sexually free societies (like Europe) will have very low ASD. Both women WANT sex, but a guy has to be more careful not to trigger the ASD in certain types of women more than others. You learn to read a girl’s ASD level very quickly through calibration.
You’re right. That shit is a SERIOUS ISSUE. We can’t make jokes about it. Certainly no comedians are famous or make massive crowds of people laugh by joking about SERIOUS ISSUES. You have shown me the error of my ways.
It was mansplained to you twice that you misinterpreted/misread the analogies. You just sound silly now.
That’s why I 1/4’ed the number at the end, because the other 3/4s are the acquaintance types you’re talking about. The ones you just nod your head to as you pass them on the street, or that you know but never actually talk to, etc.
Or would you say that someone you meet, spend a few hours connecting with, exchange contact information, keep in touch in some form at least once a week, and hang out with in person more than once a month, isn’t a friend?
Have you never met any natural social butterflies in your life or at least heard of the concept?
Logically, you would think that hey. But in reality, the bar is the place the jokes go over the best:
“Here’s your drink. Sorry it took a while, I had to put all the roofies in it.”
“Hey, I think someone put roofies in my drink, will you taste it for me?”
“I forgot my roofies tonight so I’m going to have to take advantage of you the old-fashioned way.”
“I’m just drinking water, but don’t worry you can still roofy it and take advantage of me.”
“Remember me from last night? You do? Shit, I guess I didn’t use enough roofies…”
All of these go over awesome in a bar environment if you say them with the right vibe. I say them all the time. Hell, I even deadpan them sometimes. If it helps, visualize Ryan Reynolds saying these things, the way he’d deliver them is what makes them work.
I can direct you to pick-up message boards that focus entirely on maintaining long-term relationships if you’d like to do more really brief skimming of deep topics and cast more baseless but somehow adamant judgements.
The stuff written on relationship boards will be EXTREMELY offensive to most people reading this thread, but the concepts and techniques work and are very well tested and allow PUAs to juggle multiple relationships, or set up Hugh Hefner style “number 1 girlfriend” love-lives, etc. that are fullfilling for both parties (though much the way people judge traditional polygamy outright, these things will be judged even harsher).
This is how it was back in the old days, before it got as commercial as it is now. That’s why everyone was teaching workshops and bootcamps for free back then, it was purely a “Holy shit, I’m figuring out some cool stuff here…let’s all test this out and help eachother for the greater good of everyone getting laid!” and they began backwards engineering what “cool guys who get women” do. PUA club fashion was picked up from looking at what the guys in the club with the hottest girls were wearing. They weren’t wearing a striped polo shirt, they were rockstars in LA like Tommy Lee wearing crazy shit. That’s why PUAs started peacocking…you can make fun of how it looks all you want, but at the time the rockstars wearing eyeliner and weird tattoos and vinyl pants and such were taking home the hottest girls in the clubs.
Now EVERYONE wears that stuff because pick-up is such a big part of modern culture, so girls just think it’s silly haha Peacocking now, as I explained before, is just dressing a little different than everyone else. If everyone else is wearing Affliction sparkly shirts and fuzzy hats, peacocking is just dressing in a normal black dress shirt and nice jeans.
George Clooney seems to do alright.
I don’t see what I would have to be unhappy about. I have a primary girlfriend, who loves me and I love her, and I hang with her during the week and work on my personal life (business, working out, hobbies, typing on this message board, etc.) and we have wonderful sex (she makes sure to do herself up for me all the time and bring out her A-game in bed because she knows that I have other options if she stops trying, and I turn her on because I make sure to consciously make an effort to attract her, so I’m not “forcing” her to fuck me like some people will infer, but rather it’s a mutual effort to keep eachother sexually satisfied and happy). On the weekend I’ll go out to social environments where the staff let me in for free, I don’t have more than a beer or two, I get to meet up with a bunch of close friends and casual friends, meet some new friendly people, hear some new interesting life stories, learn some things about topics I never would have looked into if I hadn’t met someone who was well-versed in them, flirt with some gorgeous women, and if I meet one I dig, I can take her home for a night of fun and my primary girlfriend is alright with this as long as I come back to her when all is said and done, and, since she keeps me satisfied (since I rooted through a ton of women to find one that’s high-quality and a perfect match for me on all levels), I have no reason to stray so I do come back to her.
This lifestyle isn’t for everyone, but pick-up gave me the skills to find a girl who fits into my life and who loves me for who I am, and it allowed me to shape my love-life into a relationship style that fits for me. Down the road if I decide to become monogamous and get married, I can do that, and it will be with a woman who is better than all of the other women I’ve met in my life.
I have no interest in being yet another guy that bitches about his wife on poker night with his other married buddies who bitch about their wives because they settled for what what convenient in their tiny little social circles. I’ll be the guy saying “No, my wife is awesome. She SHOULD be, I picked her out of thousands.”
The community encourages a guy to get his shit together. Physically whether he was born ugly or not, he should groom himself as best he can and try to work out regularly not because it attracts women but because it’s healthy and shows you respect yourself. Business-wise, he should have goals that he focuses on achieving. In life in general, he should have a purpose that he works toward that comes above anything else, including women. This is for himself, but also attracts women because women are attracted to potential.
The stoner teenage kid with the guitar in a shitty band gets girls because even though looking at him you think he has nothing going for him, to girls in his life he has a dream and purpose that he’s focused on.
Fully agree. Don’t let other people define you and don’t let your current “league” determine your future “league”. Your identity is ever-changing.
Just a quick note about married women as I re-read that part and I know it’s controversial:
A happily married woman is impossible to pick up. If her man is doing his job of attracting her and she admires and respects him as a person, friend, soulmate, and as a man, she will NEVER stray from him, no matter what fancy-shmancy PUA techniques are thrown at her.
This is from experience, again, first-hand, second-hand, etc. A satisfied woman has no reason to stray. She may be ATTRACTED, but she won’t actually go through with sex.
All the more reason for men to learn some basics about attraction so they can keep their woman happy and fullfilled in their relationship.
I never worry about women I’m seeing “cheating” on me, because they don’t want to. I keep them fully satisfied and attracted. Women aren’t looking to rack up notches on the bedpost, they’re looking for one good man so they can stop having to go out to the bars and getting done up to buy groceries hoping there’ll be a cute single guy in the cereal aisle.
You sure have a lot invested in pickup, don’t you? Way more than the notches on your shlong. Or maybe that’s what you have so much invested in.
There has to be a better way than drawing up a little cardboard environment where you are The Ultimate Alpha Master of Coochie-Control and dangling it in front of your eyes from wires attached to your head.
Oh and. No far bringing political correctness into it. That just says “I have no argument here, but you’re wrong.”
I don’t know that a bunch of ad homs actually advances the argument a whole lot. :dubious:
Not intended as* ad hom.* I mean only to judge TWTTWN’s attitudes. If he believes what he says, I can infer what I choose from that, and he’s free to rebut.
I’m honestly not sure what you expect me to rebut? You kind of just said a bunch of weird shit about cardboard and dangling wires.
I’ll be happy to explain all sorts of politically incorrect pick-up shit, and link you to all sorts of message boards if you like. I just figure my posts are long enough as-is that unless someone asks for something specific everyone would be happier if I didn’t add a bunch of side tangents.
Ask whatever you’d like to know.
OK, drop the PC question. It would take forever to sort out.
What I meant by the cardboard-on-wires metaphor is that you seem to rely on a simplistic assertion that you always give your women what they came for, and thus exercise perfect control over that part of the relationship. It just sounds too good to be true. What if it isn’t?
Oh, and the notches-in-the shlong thing. By that I mean I see you having to objectify (uh oh, PC word) both the woman and yourself for it to work.
Well, I know what these particular women want, and I consciously make sure that they get that. Whether it’s sexual satisfaction, emotional satisfaction, chasing them when they don’t feel desirable, being a little hard-to-get if they start to get bored, etc.
As a result, they don’t seek other partners.
This isn’t complicated stuff, anything is easy when you understand it. I can’t fly a plane but a pilot who knows what he’s doing should have no troubles. 
Is there anyone who would disagree with the notion that you have to understand your partner’s needs and fullfill them, and they have to do the same for you, to maintain a healthy relationship?
What’s the objectification exactly? If you mean in giving examples, it’s just short-hand for explaining things quickly.
I love the girls that I develop deep relationships with. I love them for their quirks and the silly games they instinctually play as well as their good traits.
You become confident by identifying your source of self-consciousness and working on that. If it’s your appearance, work out, fix your hair, go to the dentist. If it’s deeper than that, do some digging to figure out what it is. In my experience, most people who resolve their psychological issues not by changing themselves, but through self-acceptance.
Most people can not do a total rehaul of their lives, and conforming to an idealized notion of alpha maleness is not a substitute to making peace with yourself. Because your insecurity will always be there despite all the dressing you wrap around it.
That’s the thing that causes people to roll their eyes. There is no one-shoe-fits-all approach for addressing low confidence. You don’t become confident by acting like someone that you’re not, just like getting a boob job won’t fix a woman’s self-image issues (especially if her boobs are not even all that small…they just don’t conform to what Play Boy is selling). You become confident by addressing the issue causing you to lack confidence. Most of the time, the issue is not that you’re not getting laid enough. Otherwise, wildly promiscuous women would notoriously have the highest self-esteem, and they don’t. Insanely gorgeous women don’t either. (And please don’t respond with “This is because women have all the power” like you have below.)
It doesn’t matter. Women still have to work to be attractive. And I’ll be the first to tell you this: attractive women have to work to attract attractive men. If they aren’t confident in themselves, all other things being equal they are at a disadvantage to those who are. Because they won’t be putting themselves out there. It’s really not that different for men, honest to God.
Remember you admitted on the last page that you won’t go after the Plain Jane sitting in the corner as if she has self-esteem issues? Why not, if female confidence is not something guys value?
Yeah, I’ve heard of those men. Just like I’ve heard of women who want men they can easily manipulate so they get extract gifts and money from them. These are stereotypical outliers that are not representative of what most people find attractive, though. In the vast middle, you have men who like confident women who speak their minds, don’t play dumb, and can take out the trash themselves instead of feigning helplessness. And you have women who like empathetic men who are good listeners, who do their part around the house without asking, and aren’t so wedded to gender roles that their egos won’t object to a wife that earns more money than them. We are fast moving beyond rigid gender expectations, and are more willing to look at people as individuals, not as stereotypes.
Men who want “good little wives” and have Asian fetishes are not what most women are trying to attract, which goes to my earlier point about quality. Why would I want to engage in behavior that attracts these types, when my natural disposition is strong and opinionated? To get laid? To this I say “Eh, this is me…take it or leave it.”
That being said, good luck to those men who don’t conform to conventional wisdom’s idea of masculinity. There seems to be shortage of supporters for them out there.