Because women want to get laid too.
That’s not that point. Men can raise their value easily, at any point in time. Women on the other hand are stuck at their value, and it tends to decrease over time. It’s clearly not balanced, and I was pointing out how it’s not fair.
As for divorce court, I’m not sure what that has to do with it. How does divorce raise her value? How does divorce help her find a new partner? Also, I can’t remember the last time I’ve met a couple where their earning differential was greater than 20%.
It’s not fair? Aw, how terrible. The fact is, all women are young at some point in their lives. Not all men are tall, rich and handsome. Where’s the imbalance here? At least most women have their good days when guys wanted them. What’s so sad about a woman’s declining sexual market value that isn’t sad about a guy who has none to begin with? She had her good days… he just might have his, if he doesn’t die first. :rolleyes:
I didn’t suggest you should feel pity, nor was I making a judgement of any kind, I was merely making the statement that it’s clearly not fair.
Women have a fixed sexual value, and it declines with time. Some women were ugly when they were young, they never had “good days” at any point in their lives.
If you had read this thread you’d understand that for men, being tall, rich, and handsome has less do with sexual value than you think.
Some women got unlucky, and they’re stuck with it. No man is that unlucky however, because men can change their value very easily, at any time in their lives. Nature didn’t give men a fixed value like it did to women.
I’ve seen men who would be rated as a 3 go to being an 8 (on the 1-10 sexual value scale) in the span of a month. No woman could ever hope to do that. Just because some men are born, live, and then die, and never move from their “3” position doesn’t mean they can’t - they have the power to do so if they want to, and know how. No woman who is a 3 will ever get to 8, it’s out of their control.
I wish when I was younger that I had been aware of the whole PUA thing. I certainly fit the profile of folks that need it. Spending high school and college years socially awkward / shy with women…compounded by time in engineering school with badly lopsided male/female ratios, distorting the entire dating scene. I also did not have good role models, with a single parent household and a family with very poor social skills. I’m a reasonably attractive guy, but the skills and methods of player-type friends seemed very unattainable. It was also not a matter of adjusting my standards downward! I had (very) rare dates, but I couldn’t muster a romantic relationship in my league or any other (just friends-type relationships being more typical), and it left me very depressed and probably needy.
I was fortunate to meet my wife on the internet shortly after college. Probably even more fortunate that I’m very happily married a decade later considering she was really my first girlfriend, as it would be typical with the lack of dating experience to end up with a very poor match getting hitched to the first girl to give that kind of positive attention.
Anyway, I am a very different person now, much more polished and confident, having worked to be over the years, and very importantly, the confidence that comes with positive female feedback from my wife. Having read the PUA stuff only casually (primarily The Game along with threads like this) I find it very fascinating. Kind of like learning where I had gone wrong back in the day, and technical explanation for what “natural” friends would do. In fact, the discussion of technical people and how PUA stuff breaks the seemingly organic down to processes they can understand…brilliant! I suppose to many people it seems dehumanizing, but PUA is just catering to how engineers/programmers/etc think.
So I for one, applaud the PUA movement for attempting to teach some important social skills to some folks left behind in the dating/mating game.
I’ve got several friends similar to **TheWhoToTheWhatNow ** and some were in the bar last night. One spent the evening chatting and dancing with a pair of girls, one was absolutely huge. I’m sure the girls had a great evening. He bid them goodnight and went for a few more drinks in town and went home alone. Another just called me to say he’d just got home and is going to bed - it’s midday - I’ll hear more about that later!
Anyway, the point is they are naturals - no pick up classes and the like. Due to this thread I’ll be interested now to ask them how they picked up their techniques.
A question just occurred to me, which I would like to pose for the TWTTWN and anyone else who might have an opinion:
Does pickup work on gay men? Can gay males who might be physically unappealing manage to snag much more desirable men by using techniques like what heterosexual PUAs use? Or is it a totally different situation?
This. You can do WAY more than most people think, but at the end of the day if someone is attracted to you it’s because somewhere inside of them that’s a possibility. The wife who hides her wedding ring and sleeps with me may love the shit out of her husband, but somewhere in her he’s not satisfying her and so she responds to someone else coming along and unlocking that.
For instance, there’s a set of techniques called “Boyfriend Destroyers”. Catchy title, hey? At first glance it sounds like “wow you can get any woman to ditch her boyfriend for you!!!” which is great for marketing, but realistically it’s just a series of concepts and techniques that test the girl to see how serious she is about her relationship, and makes it very very easy for her to let loose that unsatisfied part of her in an efficient way.
The concepts are stuff like don’t bash the boyfriend, even if she starts it, always talk him up as sounding like a cool guy. If you talk shit, she’ll go “no he’s not that bad he bought me flowers!” If you say he sounds nice, she’ll go “well not always, this one time didn’t even bring me flowers on my bday”. And disqualify yourself as much as possible “You wouldn’t want to date me, I’m a terrible boyfriend, I don’t even have time for a girlfriend right now, and you’re not my type anyway.” instead of trying to logically convince her you’re better than the boyfriend. She’ll be intrigued by the challenge and the chance to “fix” a guy VS her boyfriend she’s probably bored of and has already wrangled into a beta role in their relationship.
Most nice guys will do the reverse of even those two concepts, they’ll bash the boyfriend and tell her “He treats you like crap, I’d treat you SO much better than him!! I love you way more than he does!” and that’s why that NEVER works.
Is this “making” her into you? No, you’re just seeing how secure their relationship is and, if she’s not satisfied in it, giving her a chance to chase a guy she’s attracted to more than her boyfriend. If she was totally satisfied with him, she wouldn’t bash him and would agree “yes, he IS a cool guy, I’m really lucky!” and to the disqualifying she’d go “Ya I don’t like players or assholes, I like guys who know how to treat a lady, like my boyfriend does!”
A wife who’s totally satisfied with her husband won’t stray, even with all the PUA tricks in the world.
Yep exactly. While you were at the mall with your buddies, I was in my computer room. While you were at a house party, I was staying inside to watch TV. Jump to our adulthood and you have social skills you picked up naturally, and I have to consciously learn them if I want to catch up.
This is a big problem for PUAs at times…not just when we decide to stick to one girl and turn others down, but often our friends wives/girlfriends will be subconsciously shooting massive attraction signs at us (and have no idea). We’re not TRYING to game them, it’s just our friends are often so beta and mundane to the girls in comparison that if you throw us all into an environment with a little alcohol, next thing you know your buddy’s girlfriend is giving you the “fuck me” signs and you look at your buddy who has NO clue it’s going on because he can’t read those signs, and you have to excuse yourself away from the situation in a way that doesn’t make things akward. You can’t say “look man, your girl wants to fuck me, so I’m gonna’ just be quiet and wander off whenever she’s around.”
I already replied to this silly argument of yours before that joining a church group is one of the top activities single people are advised to try, to meet someone to date. And churches hold singles nights. When you’re single, EVERYWHERE is a meat-market…that’s why some girls dress up to go to the grocery store or gym, and guys will always check out the cute girl in the record store hoping to make eye contact.
Well what would that article be entitled? “Watch out girls, that social, outgoing, charming, friendly, flirty guy who makes you feel sexy and good about yourself and has you wet thinking about having sex with him WANTS TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU!! RUN!!!”
Push-up bras, makeup and Lulu Lemon pants are obviously transparent, but even knowing that, guys still get turned on by a girl wearing them.
You absolutely do. You were a normal decent looking guy who just didn’t know how to be like your outgoing playery-type friends. You luckily managed to find a great girl and marry her, and that’s an awesome happy ending, but a lot of guys end up like one of my buddies who’s about to turn 30 having had an entire 2 month relationship as his only experience with a woman ever in his life. His growing-up story is pretty much an exact duplicate of yours.
Usually actual naturals won’t be able to explain it, or will have REALLY vague “techniques”. These guys will tell other guys to “just be yourself man” and “just go over and say hi” etc. because in their mind that’s all their doing. If you watch one of them go over and say hi, through a PUA lens, you’ll see them approach with confidence instead of hover around nervously, you’ll hear them speak loudly and clearly instead of mumble their greeting, you’ll see them notice one girl is into them more than the other girl even if they can’t describe “she touched her hair, turned to face me, and touched my elbow as she laughed”, etc. etc.
Much like sales, PUA techniques work on anyone who wants to be picked up. If a guy is bi-sexual, a gay guy could run game on him and pick him up, because it’s in the realm of possiblity for him that “I could be attracted to this person”. But if a guy is totally straight (and often in today’s society actively afraid of being perceived gay in any way), a gay guy using pick-up wouldn’t be able to attract him because there’s no possibility of him being attracted to work with. It’s like someone who doesn’t want to be hypnotized going to a hypnotist, there’s nothing to work with so it won’t happen.
Similarily, if I am completely not a girl’s type, like 100% she not just prefers guys who have a totally different look from me but also actively DISlikes the notion of being with someone who looks like me, no amount of game on my end will work. But most people are very flexible with what they’re attracted to. Most of the girls I date tell me that I’m not their type, and describe guys that are nothing like me as their ideals…but they’re not UNopen to getting with me, so I can flip the switches. I’ve hooked up with girls of different races, ages across the gamut from 18 - 49, girls taller than me, classy girls, rocker girls, good girls…I’m often not their ideal dream guy looks-wise, but as long as I’m not impossible for them to like, there’s a chance for me.
Consider what it’s like when you run into a girl who turns out to have the same name as your mom (or a guy with the same name as your little brother if you’re a chick). Like automatically that can cross a “too weird” line for you and no matter what they do, you can’t get past that issue. I had a girl making out with me one night, who when I tried to follow-up for a date, shot me down because my cologne reminded her of her boyfriend. I HAVE other colognes, haha but it automatically disqualified me as a possibility and there was no recovering.
Some girls have learned traditional PUA game and use it on guys, and strippers use it all the time. You might be interested to see that they have their own forum ( http://forum.stripperweb.com/forumdisplay.php?f=133 ) for discussing how to get better tips, how to game young guys, old guys, how to spot freeloaders, how to keep guys hitting the ATM, etc. etc. You can call it manipulation, but if you go into a strip club you know what you’re getting into…and a fat ugly stripper with bad breath and a bad personality will never be able to get you to buy a lapdance even if she uses all the techniques that message board discusses.
- TWTTWN
Hey TWTTWN I have a question. There are two aspects of the dating or “game” scene or whatever that, as far as I am aware, are big with the kids these days, but that I have noticed are curiously absent from your descriptions. The first is as ancient as the other is modern: dancing, and Facebook. I would assume those two things would be a big part of the pick up game, am I wrong?
Technology has changed the game a lot. From cell phones to Twitter. When this stuff was first being figured out, MySpace was about the peak of “social networking” and that was a pretty personal blog/profile type setup. Facebook means everyone is SUPER inter-connected now, especially in smaller towns.
Pros for a PUA:
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It’s easier to get a girl’s Facebook than her phone number, and it’s not as bad as an E-Mail address because it’s viewed as just a social way of keeping in touch whereas an E-Mail is still a pretty personal conversation between the two of you
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It makes it REALLY easy to set up jealousy plotlines and demonstrate social proof and high value. A girl can be “kind of” into me, and then go to my Facebook page and see a dozen cute girls writing things on my wall, photos of me with friends doing fun things, etc. etc. and suddenly she’s super into me compared to before. I have a friend who literally has 1 picture of himself up that he’s posted himself, and 500+ photos that he’s been tagged in by a ton of friends. What’s the first thing someone seeing that is going to think about that guy? “Wow, he is REALLY popular!!”
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It makes it easy to invite a bunch of people out to an event, and throw some new girls you’ve just met into the invite, and they’re more likely to come out because they know they won’t show up to some abandoned apartment building where you’re standing there in your underwear.
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It makes it easy to sleep with other girls in a fuckbuddy/exes social circle haha
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It keeps your girlfriend bringing out her A-Game in the bedroom, because she can see other girls writing things on your Facebook wall and knows she’d better not slack off sexually because those girls want you
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You can pick up girls on Facebook, and have built in “this guy knows some people you know so he’s probably a decent guy and not a psycho stalker freak” social proof
Cons for a PUA:
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It means girls come out in groups more…in the past they’d just round up a couple friends via word of mouth, but now they can send out an invite and have 20 orbiter-guys show up hoping to white-knight their way into her pants
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It makes life hell if you decide to get into a monogamous relationship. I’m sure everyone’s heard stories about the jealousy and break-ups caused by people writing on taken people’s walls, ugh…better to just take your Facebook down while you’re committing
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It can remove the annonymous aspect, where if you weird a girl out or sleep with a girl who’s taken, and then see “oh, shit, she’s friends with my friend” and next thing you know you have social circle drama
Personally I hate Facebook haha It’s more trouble/drama than it’s worth.
As for dancing, personally I can’t dance. I can do some basic club-grinding swing-dancing-wannabe spinning-the-girl stuff if I have a girl with me, but me dancing solo is not something anyone wants to see haha Some guys are awesome at dancing, but there’s a catch to it:
Dancing is only attractive if you’re doing it because you’re having fun. Whether you dance good or bad, if you’re dancing for YOURSELF and don’t care what anyone thinks, girls will be able to tell and will be attracted to you because you don’t fear social pressure or judgement.
The loser guys who dance along the edge of the dance floor trying to C-Walk or breakdance and look all gangsta trying to impress chicks going by don’t get girls. When they do, it’s not because of their solo-dancing. Girls make fun of these guys because they’re like the guy who buys a Porsche and keeps mentioning it in conversations trying to impress people. Buy a Porsche because you want one, not to try to impress people.
Often for a PUA going to the dance floor with a girl is just an excuse to isolate her from her friends so she can act on her attraction without feeling like her friends will judge her as a slut.
A guy who can dance with a girl can win bonus points from it, but it’s not necessary for building attraction or landing the girl. Because I can’t dance I usually just approach a group of girls and nod my head toward guys who are dancing and ask a girl “So do girls really judge how a guy will be in bed by how he dances? 'cause all I got is a bad version of The Robot. 
I think I’m doomed to be alone forever!! :D”
- TWTTWN
But it is fair. Except when it comes to who has a right to gripe about it. Women have a right to gripe about it. Men who gripe get threads named after them. :rolleyes:
Untrue. Women can resort to makeup, plastic surgery, breast implants, or the like. A woman can increase her sexual value; it happens all the time.
I have read this thread and being tall, rich and handsome is a highly reliable positive hit on a man’s sexual market value. So much so that those who can readily achieve this really don’t bother with people who say it doesn’t have as much to do with sexual value. What you’re saying simply does not work that way in the wild.
Being tall, handsome and rich absolutely does increase your choices of mates; and increased choices infers better quality. The law of large numbers applies here.
Absolutely untrue. I know makeup artists who would be glad to show you otherwise, not to mention one or two plastic surgeons. In the wild I can show you plenty of women who were unlucky and who broke out of it. Easily.
It’s not as easy for men as you think. If it were there wouldn’t be this PUA thing.
One law of nature says that a solution that keeps popping up has indeed found a problem. The proliferation of PUA groups (the solution) is evidence of a common problem (a man not being able to improve his sexual market value).
Men can improve their sexual value but it isn’t easy. So can women. These truths are quite evident in the wild.
Anecdotal evidence.
No woman who is a 3 will ever get to 8? Untrue. That’s what we have makeup artists and plastic surgeons for. For starters. There are other ways a woman can seriously increase her SMV: by now I’m sure you’ve got quite a few arguments against makeup artists and plastic surgeons, in which case I guess I should photocopy a page from my sister-in-law’s makeup miracles book to show you how a woman improves her SMV dramatically with makeup.
However, there is another way a woman can go from a 1 to an 8 that is even more obvious. It’s called losing weight. That said, I don’t want to be associated with bashing fat women. I hate fat bashers. But a large sized woman who loses weight can easily improve her SMV by 5 points; obviously the problem here is both losing the weight and keeping it off.
The only thing being tall, rich and handsome does is make more girls approach you or stare at you, and they let you make a few more mistakes than an average guy. Being tall says you have good genetics, being rich says you probably set and achieve goals, and being handsome says you take care of your body…But if you’re tall, rich and handsome and don’t know what to do with the girls once you’re talking to them, you’ll lose them either right away, or down the road when you start dating.
I’ve been out “in the wild” 2-4 nights a week for 6 years now, and have taken a ton of girls from guys who are taller, richer, and more handsome than me. 
Those things actually make it easier because if I see a guy who’s wearing an Armani suit talking about his private jet I already know his crutch is relying on his money to impress the girl so I just make having a private jet seem try-hard and the girls lose attraction for him and transfer it to me. If I see a good looking guy, I already know he’s probably been relying on his looks to attract girls and hasn’t HAD to develop game to back those looks up so I know I can spike the girl’s emotions more than he can and get attraction.
In PUA terms we call this AMOGing. It’s a set of techniques used to tool an “Alpha Male Other Guy” I don’t use these much these days though because most guys are generally nice dudes and if you’re nice to me, then I’ll be nice to you and talk you up to the girl you’re into or even introduce you to other girls I meet.
But if you’re a dick to me to try to impress a girl you’re talking to, then I’ll take her from you without breaking a sweat, even if you have a private jet.
AMOGing techniques were backwards engineered by PUAs attempting to take girls from cool alpha guys with the express purpose of observing how they’d tool us, then just breaking down why those things worked and using them ourselves. 
- TWTTWN
Responses to your points, in order:
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Make-up is useless if everyone else is wearing it too. Sexual value is a surprisingly relative thing within isolated environments. It may reduce my repulsion for some women’s unfortunately ugly appearances… but most assessments of women in a bar, for example, are done relatively. I don’t care about any particular girl’s 1-10 rating, I just want to know which ONE girl is the highest rated.
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I know this is a subjective area of measurment, but do you honestly believe breast implants and plastic surgury could make a girl who is a 3 go on to become an 8? Ironically, many claim such things improve their feelings of self-worth … something that’s more useful to men than women.
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Being tall, rich, and handsome helps men. About as much as self-worth helps a woman. Women marry rich dudes … and then have hot sex with confident and charasmtic lovers when their husbands aren’t around. Being handsome isn’t much, considering how ugly the boyfriends/husbands of many hot supermodels/actresses are. I mean, being terribly disfigured is a reasonable concern, but as long as there is nothing wrong with you, it’s not a huge point gain/loss. Being tall is the only one worth any consideration. Many women will outright refuse to date men shorter. But since no matter how short a man is, there will always be an even shorter women, it doesn’t matter that much. Though your chances of dating a 6 foot supermodel are fairly slim. Height also indirectly affects confidence. People defer to height. Children pick up on this early, and fast-growers quickly develop “alpha” behaviour simply in response to how the shorter kids in school respond to them.
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I agree that while it superficially seems VERY easy, some men have difficulty. But for MOST men, the biggest hurdle is realizing that this stuff actually works and has an effect on the social behaviour of those around them. Some men are just depressed and doubtful - but it doesn’t take much to show them how easy it is to be sociable. Of course, if you have serious social/sexual phobias, then reading and acting on a how-to-guide may be near impossible for you. But that sort of thing would probalby require psychiatric treatment anyways. Most men aren’t at the point though.
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Learning to “pick-up” is only valuable as long as not everyone is doing it. Once everyone is doing it, it’s value diminishes greatly – Just like make-up for women.
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We have driving schools. In fact almost everyone in my town has been to one when they were young. This is a solution to what problem?? The problem is that people aren’t born knowing how to drive. Yet, that doesn’t mean driving is hard. Some people never learn to drive, and start taking the bus. After 20 years of bussing it, some people think that they’ve missed their chance and will never be able to learn to drive. In almost all cases, they are proven wrong.
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You make the call of “anecdotal evidence”. HA! If thousands upon thousands of men try this, and it works perfectly well for them, I doubt you can so easily dismiss it. Does the Association of United Pick Up Artists of America need to publish a paper in Science or Nature? (I wouldn’t be surprised, however, if some studies are in progress!) But what’s the point really?!? Just read the material, and go out and try it for yourself. It’s not like you have to make much of an investment in this. Anyone can try it out for free!
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While this again is about subjective measures… I’d love to see some before/after shots of women who go from 3 to 8 from plastic surgury alone. I still stand by my previous statement about how makeup doesn’t really count since everyone is wearing it. You can refute that if you wish, however.
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I will concede that losing weight CAN take a woman from a 3 to an 8. It would have to be dramatic, and she may have to surgically remove some extra skin, but I agree that this is possible. HOWEVER: can a FIT and HEALTHY 3 do ANYTHING to get to an 8? Somehow I feel that this is much less likely to happen.
They’ll fuck you (ie - they can be sexually attracted to you), but they won’t date you, because the social pressure is too much. They’re “supposed” to be with a taller guy, and people will stare if they see her walking arm in arm with a shorter guy. Plus if they’re insecure about being tall, when they put on heels they can feel self-conscious beside a shorter man because they seem EXTRA tall in comparison.
But they’ll still fuck you, they just won’t let anyone know about it.
Yep, agreed. Someone who’s tall, rich, and/or handsome can get attraction not necessarily because of those specific traits but because growing up those things factored into their confidence level. The good looking guy always had people be receptive to him so when he’s older he just assumes people will be receptive to him. It’s not necessarily the looks themselves attracting the girls, but what those looks did for his internal beliefs.
Take a guy who’s been short, poor, shy, and nervous around girls his whole life and throw him in a tall, rich, handsome guy’s body and he still won’t get girls. Take a tall, rich, handsome guy who’s been that way all his life and developed confidence, game, etc. because of it, and put him in a short, poor, ugly guy’s body and he’ll still get girls.
Yep. A big concern in the community when The Game first came out and Mystery’s VH1 pickup reality show was that “OMG everyone will know game and then it won’t work anymore!!!” But the reality is, as evidenced by this thread, 99% of people don’t even believe this WORKS, let alone would put in the effort of dedicating years to learning the skills, so there’s really no danger of everyone suddenly becoming skilled PUAs…which I’m thankful for!
Ya, I support Borzo’s “anecdotal evidence” with my own anecdotal evidence. It would surprise me if this stuff wasn’t studied by “real scientists” down the road to replace the lame “you have to mirror her bodylanguage and exude the right pheromones” theories out there. But again as you can see from this thread, the concept of this even working is such a complete mind-fuck to people’s reality that I think it’ll take a while before people are ready to approach it with interest instead of instant-dismissal and hostility.
And like he says, you can go out and try this for yourself. Get some time using PUA tactics “in the field” and you’ll see the results for yourself. Like I said way back in the thread, part of why pickup hooked me was that you can see instant results. Provide stimulus A, and you’ll get response B, over and over and over.
But most people won’t do that, which is why pickup artists will keep getting laid.
- TWTTWN
But you’re a PUA expert. By definition a PUA artist is a game-changer.
And as you said, TR&H guys get away with being awkward around women more than others: you can get away with more if you’re a man like that. That means something. Also, TR&H can get away with cheating with multiple women; losing one woman ain’t the end of his world.
No it’s not. Makeup, in that case, keeps you competitive.
And a woman can up her rating with the way she dresses, makeup, any number of ways. There are loads of tips in the marketplace to help women do exactly this.
It can make a woman go from a 3 to an 8, when done properly. It is obvious that in many cases (see the Housewives of Picky-Your-City for obvious examples) it is done horribly wrong, and in this case it can drop her to a 1.
At the same time tall rich and handsome is getting it thrown at him by other women. That one definitely goes two ways. Now a pudgy ugly rich dude is probably not doing so well with other women but a tall rich and handsome man is having it thrown at him more than the Axe chesty to pits dude.
You know what, all things being equal if I were single I would rather be competing against an ugly dude than an Adonis. Now what you’re probably seeing with ugly boyfriends/husbands and beautiful supermodels is that the ugly guy has personality: which means for the purposes of this paragraph, all things aren’t equal. Personality counts big for men.
And then get mad if a guy says he won’t date fat women… and ironically, a shorter man can’t change his height. A woman can use a plastic surgeon or get all kinds of mods, but height is one you’re kinda stuck with.
Shorter women tend to like really really tall guys.
Yup.
Most men aren’t at that point - but a lot of men need coaching and a compassionate approach to their situation. Instead of this, they get shit on by both women who are hypergamic to begin with, and men who are downright catty in their competition for females.
Indeed. Then you have no choice but to move up the value chain and be more competitive. You need more advanced pick-up techniques or, for women, better makeup. Competition and escalation rarely fail to go hand in hand.
That’s easy. The problem is the need to avoid crashing into one another. The solution is driving schools.
This is also true of women. Many believe they will never raise their sexual market value. In many cases they are happily proven wrong.
Okay then I’ll concede this. You have a point.
I’ll go try to scan in that makeup book where plenty of women arguably went from a 3 to an 8. Arguably, of course; as you said, it is subjective. But it was done with makeup and not even plastic surgery.
You can totally make or break a woman’s look just by how you do her makeup and hair style with regards to her face shape. For instance this shows you some do’s and don’t’s that can affect a woman’s looks. There are better links out there but that’s a beginner’s approach. Here is a quick and dirty example of ugly duckling to beauty transformations using makeup. And another one. Obviously more advanced makeup tactics can raise a woman’s SMV by 5 points. Subjectively speaking.
Yes, your mileage will vary.
But my point is you said it is impossible for a woman to go from a 3 to an 8 and I am explaining that it is far from impossible.
Le Jacquelope:
- Okay, makeup isn’t ‘useless’, it keeps you competitive, I concede. I should have been more clear. It’s still not comparable to PUA-strategy, however, since 95% of women wear makeup, but the numbers of men using PUA-strategy is much, much lower than that. The “relative value” of makeup is lower, since all it’s doing is keeping you in the game, whereas using PUA-strat you are clearly leaving most of your competition behind.
Also, makeup has a much more temporary nature: in the morning, it’s gone, and if you spend enough time with a particular man, he will eventually find out what you really look like. Whereas men’s ability to use PUA-strategy has no downtime and can be used 24/7.
I believe, in practice, the value-boosting power is MUCH less than the particular links you provided (which may or may not be photoshopped). Just as some men have a “what does she look like naked” detector, some have a “what does she look like without makeup detector”. It’s a given that women probably look uglier than as you see them, and men take this into account. I also believe makeup can only help women who are ugly in SPECIFIC WAYS. But makeup is weak when the reason you are a 3 is because you are fat, have no curves, have too much curves, have asymmetrical facial features, mis-proportioned body shape, etc.
I’m not trying to be argumentative. I would give that particular asian girl, a link I’ve seen before in the past at least a couple times, a transformation from a 4 to an 8. Of course, we are missing the rest of her body, but that’s a separate issue. Some would clearly suggest she goes from a 2 to a 9 - so I mean there’s not much to argue in regards to such a subjective issues.
You’ve made your point, however.
- I’m not saying that being TRH doesn’t help. It does. It helps the man’s psychology (ie personality) at the very least, and raises him a point or two no-quesitons-asked. And a nice combination of all 3 is fairly valuable. But the point that me and TWTTWN are trying to make is that it doesn’t “lock you out” of any particular opportunities. As he and thousands have testified, a short and poor man with personality can easily compete with a tall and rich man who has a poor personality. As for looks alone, there’s really only 2 relevant categories: A) not repulsive or B) repulsively ugly. As long as you are in A, it doesn’t really matter how good-looking your are. It may help a bit, but no woman is turned off a guy because he’s “just normal looking”.
Ultimately, being TRH has it’s biggest effect on a man by how it affects his personality, and that’s a man’s most important trait. This, however, can be conveniently “faked”. A TRH man put into the body of a short, non-underwear-model, poor man’s body, will only lose a minimal amount of value, and will still be above a TRH man with terrible personality. No woman will throw themselves at a TRH man if that man has a poor personality … UNLESS that woman is looking for a man to settle for and marry and/or push around.
3) We’re not trying to say TRH has zero effect, just that it isn’t the main factor, and can be compensated for almost completely by personality. Yes, personality is the main factor for determining a man’s value, just as appearance is the big factor for women. The key to this is that personality > TBH. Whereas for woman appearance > everything.
Women tweak their appearance, with varying amounts of sucess. And men can change their personality. My initial argument was that a man’s ability to change their personality is greater than a women’s ability to change her appearance. You disagree, and you provided your examples. I concede you have a point, but it is still subjective, and my mind has not been changed. If you feel differently, I can see why that would be, and I’ll give you that.
It is still my opinion that many men can more easily change their personality - than a fat woman, with an asymmetrical face, and bad skin, can change her market value. What some men can accomplish in the span of a month would require some women to lose weight for months, get implants, get plastic surgury, and spend 2h/day on makeup. In my opinion, men have it easier. Of course, this is my biased opinion, since this problem of personality isn’t an issue for me. It was clearly “easy” for TWTTWN as well. And easy for the thousands of men who freely talk about this stuff, however.
What we’re ultimately trying to say is that it’s not hopeless for a man if they are neither tall, rich, or handsome. They have hope through learning the social skills required to attract a women through personality alone. I wouldn’t dare to make the same promises to a 250 pound, asymmetrical, mis-proportioned, 45-year old woman.
(I also stick to my belief that the age-factor isn’t fair: because it affects women greatly, but men hardly at all.)
I hope you’re happy with yourself that you’ve gotten me to agree to some middle ground. 
The problem with your view is that you’re kind of assuming that if a girl is interested in a guy, that’s it, bam, they have babies and grow old together, so TRH guys who have women approach them more frequently are automatically reproducing more. This is how society conditioned us all to think. When you watch a movie, the hero gets the girl’s phone number and they spend the rest of the movie having a relationship together because the movie would be dumb if the hero got the highly-paid actresses phone number and the rest of the movie was spent with him going “wtf? Why doesn’t she call me back?” Swingers is a good example of actually showing a guy fucking up after getting a girl’s number, but the vast majority of movies don’t acknowledge that you can still fuck up after a girl is interested because it always works out in the end.
So we grow up learning “girl’s interest or phone number = sex/relationship”.
That’s why guys are mindblown when they watch me taking girls numbers left and right. “WOW you’re AWESOME!!!” Because in their mind those numbers mean I’m going to have sex with the girls. But the reality is that the numbers don’t mean anything, you have to be able to attract the girl all the way through to sex.
That TRH guy gets the same “We shouldn’t be doing this…” Last-Minute Resistance that an ugly guy gets, and he backs off and goes “oh, sorry…” and frustrates the horny girl the same way the ugly guy does.
This is why TRH doesn’t matter in the long-run…it gets you in at the start, and gives you more of a chance at the start, but there’s a whole lotta’ stuff that happens after that initial interest that totally nullifies the TRH guy’s attributes.
Again, that doesn’t mean the guy can read her signals, has the balls to escalate on her, etc. There are plenty of TRH guys who keep getting stuck in the Friend Zone.
A buddy of mine is 4’3" and gets laid regularly by tall (and often gorgeous) girls because all girls are taller than him. He hasn’t studied game but he has a very social natural outgoing personality. He had to develop it because it was either accept he’s short and improve the rest of the things he can improve, or spend his life blaming his height for everything.
He turns his weakness into an advantage. Girls don’t expect him to be forward, so he gets extra points when he IS, and guys don’t consider him a threat and can’t tool him because he’s short and they’ll look like jerks so girls will be hanging off their boyfriends but slip my friend their number.
“We can do anal 'cause I’m short, you won’t even notice it. :D” haha You’d be surprised how well that works.
Only if they haven’t been with a really really tall guy and learned how akward it is to have sex with them, then they tend to prefer guys a taller than themselves but not massively. And again this is usually just their preference, they’re not actively AGAINST being attracted to anyone their height or shorter, so the short guy still has a shot, it’s just if you ask the girl what she wants her logical brain will answer “a tall guy”.
I do agree with this. I was given a LOT of flak and social pressure when I started to change my behavior/attitudes. It’s during this period that you learn who your real friends are, because your real friends are the ones that will support you attempting to change yourself. Other people will do anything from gently try to dissuade you from being “something you’re not” to being outright hostile insulting you or spreading rumors about you.
Whereas how many shows on TV are there for giving girls makeovers and how many movies follow the She’s All That formula of taking a nerd girl and transforming her as a positive thing? There’s a definite difference in the level of support the genders receive in today’s society.
Agreed. Make-up for women is pretty much like having good posture is for men…it’s pretty much the basic level of effort just to start competing.
Also a good point. This is why PUAs creep girls out at the start before they become congruent with the skills they’re trying to learn…Imagine you’re talking to a gorgeous girl, totally your type, and then you blink and suddenly she’s 300lbs with crazy teeth and acne and scraggly hair. That’s the same feeling girls get when a guy tries to front that he’s an alpha, but then fails a congruency test (aka shit-test). He suddenly becomes hideous to her and it’s hard if not impossible to recover.
Guy: “We should go out for coffee. :)” (alpha statement)
Girl: “lol sorry you’re not my type.” (standard light-hearted shit-test)
Guy: “Really?? What’s your type? Do you like funny guys? I can be funny! :(”
Girl: “sigh…” (sees Guy as ugly now, no chance he can recover)
Guy: “We should go out for coffee. :)” (alpha statement)
Girl: “lol sorry you’re not my type.” (standard light-hearted shit-test)
Guy: “You’re not mine either. In fact I’m so NOT into you, that I’m going to take you out for coffee just to TELL you how MUCH I’m not into you. ;)”
Girl: “lol omg!!” (sees Guy as attractive, he can probably sleep with her)
Well said. Guys will rate girls on a scale of 1 - 10, girls will rate guys as “has it or doesn’t have it”.
haha ya, that’s the other thing. A girl who tackles a TRH guy just based on his looks/money/etc. is generally looking for a beta provider. This is why a ton of guys out there are raising kids that aren’t really theirs…the woman marries a beta guy but fucks an alpha guy on the side because the beta guy is good for paying the bills, raising the kids, won’t cheat on her, etc. but the alpha guy’s genes are the ones that are going to be the best chance of her kid being an alpha male.
Also girls will slowly lure a TRH beta guy in, not putting out for a month or so to appear to be a good girl to him so he’ll date her and won’t think she’s a slut, but she’s still horny and has sexual needs so she calls a guy like me up to get off with until she finally has sex with the TRH beta guy.
This is, unfortunately, also thoroughly tested by thousands of guys. The amount of infidelity out there would be pretty horrifying to people who grew up on the Disney white pickett-fence views. And this isn’t just “drunk sluts in the bar”.
I agree with this. Both genders can change their perceived value but it’s a LOT easier for a guy to learn to make eye contact and speak with clear voice tonality than it is for a woman to lose a bunch of weight and get plastic surgery.
Yep. The main problem is guys who aren’t tall, rich, or handsome will hide behind those as an excuse not to work on themselves. Like the fat person who says “I just can’t stick to a diet, I just don’t have that ability like you guys do” as they scarf a few more donuts. You HAVE the potential for that ability, you just haven’t hit rock-bottom and decided it was important enough to work on it. If someone said “I will shoot your child with this gun if you don’t lose weight”, you’d develop that ability fast.
There’s no immediate negative consequence to a guy who doesn’t work on his social skills so there’s no incentive. This is why I say you have to hit rock-bottom before you get into serious PUA. I hit rock-bottom, so I’ve worked on myself.
- TWTTWN
From someone not into these techniques, I can see a downside. I don’t for a moment really believe in that pseudo-anthropological stuff about alpha and beta males etc., but obviously you guys do. Seems to me that would sorta preclude having a relationship any deeper than fluff.
Why?
- TWTTWN
Well, just judging by the posts in this thread … the object appears to be transforming oneself into an “alpha male” who has sex with lots of partners, but whose GF or wife only has sex with him - and she’s cool with that, because he’s so awesome.
This is contrasted with the “beta male”, the stereoypical romantic monogamist and good provider, whose wife or gf is presumably having it off with the alpha-male, or wishing she was.
Not that I have anything against that as a goal, but it is a model of relationship-object which appears inherently shallow. I can see that sort of life-object as being fun and exciting (for a while), but I can’t see it as containing any great depth of feeling.