Ah yes, the straight guy who demonstrates how open and tolerant of gay culture he is by going to a gay bar on dyke night to watch the girls make out with one another.
What’s next? Demonstrating racial sensitivity with a visit to a minstrel show? Or perhaps showing support for feminism by sponsoring the Miss Universe pageant?
Of course, it figures that a person who gets his kicks watching lesbians make out in gays bars also uses “Chasing Amy” as pop culture reference of choice when issues of homosexuality come up.
'Breeders" is just stupid, do you think people have hetrosexual sex for the purpose of having babies? I’m sure that is one of the least common reasons for having sex. I think being called breeders would be extremely offensive to a barren couple, and because of this it should not be used for anyone you are not certain about.
Offensive or funny, based on the intent/usage. On its own, I think it leans toward offensive because (1) it dehumanizes or maybe trivializes families and (2) it falls into the “us vs. them” mindset where “us” is always better than “them” (i.e., it’s a label used to generalize and set aside).
I’ve actually never gone out of my way to go to a gay bar on lesbian or any other night. I’ve rather accompanied friends when I’ve been invited. A few times with Tom and Dave (a couple) and a few other times with Grace and Cindy. (another couple) I’ve sat through drag shows and enjoyed them. Course I guess it is offensive for me to watch that too, since I’m straight. So what is my alternative. Not go? Pretend to be interested in the guy’s asses? Stare at the walls? If you have the impression I frequent these places to leer and make cat calls, then I didn’t express myself well or you read me wrong. As far as whom I find attractive when I’m out ANYWHERE, I don’t feel is something I need to justify. I’ve never made rude comments or had anyone suggest to me that my behavior was innappropriate.
As far as Chasing Amy is concerned, I agreed with Grace and Cindy that sexuality is generally pretty innate, the story line is unrealistic, and the girl, um…Lauren Adams? has a voice like nails on a chalkboard. Jason Lee’s repressed sexuality in the film comes across a lot more honest. Apart from that, it is a very humorous film, the dialogue of which can prompt frank discussions on subjects we’re usually not open to discuss. I’m quite fond of all of Kevin Smith’s work and proud to admit it.
Uh, sure. Of course no word has any meaning without the historical and cultural baggage that surrounds it.
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So how long does it take before we can consider certain words to be insulting? Obviously there must be some baggage attached to the word breeder otherwise it wouldn’t be used. Just because it doesn’t have the long history behind it doesn’t mean it isn’t offensive.
Before the conversation drifts in another direction I am not interested in getting into a pissing contest over which word is the most offensive.
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Please give me a formula so I know when to be offended by certain words.
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That sounds reasonable. So I can call some homosexuals faggot, right? After all I’d just be referring to those homosexual sluts who have anonymous unprotected sex with multiple partners. You know, “to those who deserve it.” Hell no, that wouldn’t be acceptable.
IMO, “breeder” is not an epithet that scars the soul like “nigger,” “faggot,” and “kike” are, but it’s still tacky to use. I don’t know any gay people who use the term and wouldn’t associate with them if I did, any more than I would with gay men who referred to women as “fish.”
And therein lies the reason behind my comments. You certainly did give such an impression in your earlier post, at least to my way of thinking. It seems that Lamia took your post the same way. Now that you have expanded a little, your position comes of as wholly inoffensive.
There’s nothing wrong with straight people in gay bars, or at drag shows. But it’s generally pretty obvious who is there to hang out with their friends, and who is there just to check out the “freak show.” And the latter group are pretty offensive, IMHO.
As for Kevin Smith, i loved "Clerks, " but thought that “Mall Rats” was lame. Any “conversation starter” benefits that “Chasing Amy” might have had were, in my opinion, more than cancelled out by the ridiculous premise upon which the movie was based. Sexuality as rational choice theory, anyone? I thought “Dogma” was OK, although i’m generally predisposed against any film with Ben Affleck in it. I haven’t yet seen “Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.”
Um, I don’t know how to put this delicately, but, uh, “fish” is an unpleasant term used by gay men that derives, I believe, from the beach-at-low-tide scent of the female body.
I’ve never heard the term used by any of my gay friends, even those that are anti-children. Only one of them uses a particular word to stereotype non-gays; she calls them ‘hetties’, and she does intend it to be offensive. I did read the other ‘breeders’ thread back when it was first posted, and since it seems that at least some people are offended by the word, I wouldn’t use it (not that I want to anyway).
frithrah, given your further explanation, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and take you at your word that you’re not homophobic. So I’ll take it that you didn’t intend any offence with this:
‘Lesbo a go-go’ is demeaning to start with. It also sounds as though you are going to those bars to watch lesbians make out. And when they do, that’s the same as porn made for straight men.
I’ve had men make passes at me and my friends in gay bars. This extends to various men who have: grabbed my GF’s breasts, pulled me against his body so that his hard-on presses against me, crowded around my GF making sexual suggestions until I have to bring a group of friends over to physically pry them away, followed us around convinced that we’re not really gay and must be ‘up for it’, stood in the entrance of the ladies’ loos propositioning women as they enter (by ‘proposition’ I mean ‘suck my cock’) made obscene gestures, and on and on and on. Some of those men may be bi, but most aren’t - I didn’t observe them behaving the same way to any of the men in there.
The quoted paragraph made you sound like one of those men. I believe you that you’re not, so perhaps you should pay better attention to your wording in future.
Yes, that’s precisely what I’m saying. No word, offensive or otherwise, has any meaning without its historical/cultural context. Without that, it’s just a meaningless noise.
Well, I don’t find it remotely offensive. Sure, if someone is trying to insult me, the intent to insult is offensive, but the word itself is not. If I hear someone call someone else a “breeder,” I don’t particularly care.
I find “nigger” and related slurs offensive because I find them symptomatic of larger social inequities, and when challenged, can act as a stand-in for those inequities. There is no social disadvantage to be heterosexual, so the term lacks any real sting.
'kay.
Sure. If you are offended by a word, that word is offensive. Christ, I’m just talking about how I feel about it. I’m not dictating how other people should feel.
SciFiSam Writes:
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‘Lesbo a go-go’ is demeaning to start with. It also sounds as though you are going to those bars to watch lesbians make out. And when they do, that’s the same as porn made for straight men. **
I won’t doubt you on this, but I find it Ironic. I used the term “Lesbo a go-go” specifically because it is the name awarded to certain Saturdays of the month by the club I attended and they are one of the most ardent supporters of GLAD and other such organisations in our community.
** I’ve had men make passes at me and my friends in gay bars. This extends to various men who have: grabbed my GF’s breasts, pulled me against his body so that his hard-on presses against me, crowded around my GF making sexual suggestions until I have to bring a group of friends over to physically pry them away, followed us around convinced that we’re not really gay and must be ‘up for it’, stood in the entrance of the ladies’ loos propositioning women as they enter (by ‘proposition’ I mean ‘suck my cock’) made obscene gestures, and on and on and on. Some of those men may be bi, but most aren’t - I didn’t observe them behaving the same way to any of the men in there.
The quoted paragraph made you sound like one of those men.**
Those men that feel some need to satisfy some screwed up machismo by “converting” a gay woman, would be the same ones that push on the back of a straight woman’s head during oral. Lots of guys are born with an asshole gene. Why the hell would you want to be with someone that isn’t interested in you? Now bi-woman, that’s another story. 3-somes are in fact the most common straight male fantasy. Do I really need to cite this? But I have enough problems with timidity hitting on single women in a normal club let alone approaching a couple women in a gay bar to see if they are gay or bi.
A few of my visits to the club were at the request of my friend Grace who was vyying for cash prizes in an amateur strip contests and she wanted to have friends/supporters there. Not exactly as if my leering was unwelcomed.
But on your last point, to be honest, I cant claim that I’ve managed to rid completely myself of all my culturally engrained homophobia. I’ve thrown parties and had a gay friend hug me a little too tight in front of my straight friends and felt flushed with embarrassment. Some demons are hard to overcome. But intellectually I’m pissed at myself for it. Growth can come slowly sometimes.
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I believe you that you’re not, so perhaps you should pay better attention to your wording in future. **
And I’m sure it won’t be the last time I put my foot in my mouth. But I try not to piss anyone off. Except of course the fundamentalists
If there’s 2 things I can’t stand it is people that are intolerent of others, and the Dutch!
I first came across the word on childfree websites, and only found out much later that it’s also sometimes used within the GLBT community.
I can’t comment on the sexual orientation use of the word, but it is definitely used as an insult on childfree sites. Many of these sites make a distinction between being a parent and being a breeder (i.e, PNB = Parent Not Breeder & BNP = Breeder Not Parent). From how I’ve heard it used, the word implies mindless procreation, coupled with stupid parenting (or lack of) and a trashy entitlement attitude.
I first heard the word used as a perjorative against Bill & Betsy Stern during the “Baby M” trial, because they hired Mary Beth Whitehead to be a “breeder,” and that made them unfit parents. The fact that Ms. Whitehead had sent her oldest son to live with her parents, had falsely accused Mr. Stern of molesting her 10 year old daughter, and had threatened to kill the child in question was apparently seen by these same people as fit mothering.
Not all straights (i.e. me) are “breeders,” and not all gays (i.e. my sister the lesbian) are not breeders. Indeed, I can’t think of how the word can be applied to people in a correct context.
I’m just having a flashback here. Not all parents are breeders, just the “bad” ones. Not all blacks are niggers, just the “bad” ones.
Perhaps we should choose perjoratives which more accuractely describe the group we intend to demean? Ones which don’t have overlap with, say, the vast majority of the world’s population? What is wrong with calling a stupid parent a stupid parent? Why use an inclusive slur when you can use an exclusive one and be sure the only people who it would apply to are the ones you intended to refer to?
Mtgman if your post was aimed at me, (I’m not sure if the ‘we’ and ‘you’ were general or in response to my post) please be aware that I was only passing on how and where I’ve heard the word and what meaning I ascribe to it.
I am not defending the word, and I don’t personally use the word, unless quoting someone or illustrating a point. I equate the word (as used by the childfree community) with other demeaning and insulting words like “faggot” and “coon” (“coon” is the local version of “nigger”) and I choose to not typically use insults of that fashion.
Nope, not aimed at anyone in particular. No offense meant. Just had a couple neurons fire and I figured it would be best to commemorate the event with a post. They’re so rare these days.
