These are two almost diametrically opposed points of view. Is participating in the “Potemkin Village vestiges of democracy” supporting the authoritarian regime or just fairly ineffective*?
‘*’ - FWIW down or up voting posts on reddits is pretty damn effective when done en masse, it can significantly change what people see on reddit
But thats only unconscionable if the OP is wrong. If the OP is right, democracy is over and we are living in a fascist dictatorship, then absolutely pretend nothing is happening, and continue with business as usual. All you will do by protesting is get you and your family killed.
On the other hand if we still have a democracy to save, for now, then get off your ass and save it before it’s too late.
I’m trying. Part of that is asking you to cut your fascist uncle out of your life and let him know why. I have a friend who cut his father in law off from his grand children. It’s hard, but he did it because there has to be a price for his fascism.
The shootings have nothing whatsoever to do with any “move towards fascism” or the 'end of democracy".
What will end American democracy is the GOP trying to steal the elections.
They already tried it with Texas gerrymandering the fuck out of Texas. Beautifully countered by Newsom with his prop 50. Newsom there just saved Democracy (“but, but he said something in a podcast I don’t like”).
That sort of thing is what can kill American Democracy and what is needed to counter it. We still have free elections- the by-elections last year (that the Dems swept, please note) showed that.
We need leaders who can counter attempts to end free elections. As long as we have free elections, then Democracy is safe.
Mind you, we still have a situation in the White House, but even that will subside a bit if the Dems win the House and the Senate later this year.
What is needed is for people to Vote dammit, VOTE!
Handwringing and whining that “it’s all over, game over Man, game over” does nothing but help the MAGAs.
Get the vote out. Vote for the Democratic candidate. Stop voting for indy candidates 'as a protest" if whatever Dem candidate isnt 100% perfect. They wont be.
Who am I going to vote for?
(1) The Republican candidate
(2) The incumbent Democrat, who has been completely ineffectual
(3) A third party someone who is guaranteed not to win
Which one of these three actually helps? Choice one makes it worse, choice two keeps it the same, and choice three or failing to vote just means choice one or choice two.
At best, I’m rewarding ineffective opposition.
Support primary opponents to Democrats you don’t like, and then vote Democratic in the general election.
I have been doing that for some time now. You can see how effective that has been!
Things would be a lot worse if all of us who had been doing that had stopped! But if you have another suggestion, I’m all ears. I’ll suggest that giving up helps the fascists; continuing to fight, even a little bit, makes their path at least a little bit harder.
I mostly agree wif madmonk. The administration is assembling an army of right wing zealots just itching to put a bullet into anyone who defies them. The upper echelon of the administration is demanding that we comply (no protests allowed) or get shot. Republicans are fucking with election processes and won’t abide by unfavorable results anyway. We are threatening sovereign countries including our allies.
Cutting off fascist family members is just one more small act of defiance.
To which I reply:
I’ve noticed for a while that some people (in general, not just here) have definitions of what it means to think “democracy is dead” and “it’s over” that are VERY different than mine…and more significantly, what it means to argue that point forcefully in public. I react as I do because I see such statements as encouragement to surrender to Trump. I’m certain that’s not the intent of the majority of those who make that statement, but who can tell?
…there are the stages of grief. Denial. Anger. Bargaining. Depression. Then Acceptance.
For those of us that are at the “acceptance” phase, we’ve been through all of the others.
But accepting that we’ve probably reached the point of no return doesn’t mean that we stop fighting. What it does instead is put you into a better frame of mind on how to move forward.
That’s the key difference here.
What makes a “fascist dictatorship a reality” isn’t random people on the internet saying stuff. It’s fascists taking power and doing fascist things.
And we are at the “fascists have taken power” stage of proceedings. We aren’t at the “suspending elections” stage of proceedings because that might not ever even have to happen. We shouldn’t be viewing this through a historical lens because this is the present, and things will play out the way they play out. The current fascist takeover that is happening globally is going to play out differently.
Its why “primary your local candidate” ain’t ever going to be the solution. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be primarying your local candidate. That doesn’t mean you should stop fighting.
It means the bad guys have won this round. They control all of the media and social media. In America they hold the House, the Senate, the Executive and the Supreme Court for at least a generation. And even if the Democrats take back the House and/or the Senate at the midterms…they are effectively controlled opposition, and won’t do much more than maintain the status quo.
In Trump’s first term, they tried to smash the institutions, but they were too incompetent to do that. The second time around, that isn’t a problem. From public broadcasting to vaccines to USAID to meteorology, they have broken everything and remodelled it in their own vision. The attack on DEI and woke was nothing more than veiled white supremacy. The attacks on trans people won’t stop at trans people. They moved the needle firmly towards “anti-immigration” and they dragged the Democrats along for the ride.
They are using economic tools to sanction not only institutions like the International Criminal Court but the people that work for it. The chief prosecutor Karim Khan can’t even open a bank account. Lost access to his email. People seem to be compartmentalised the extent to what the fascists have already accomplished here.
There are so many layers to this. This goes beyond the shooting of Good a few days ago. While I understand the outrage and the symbolism of the shooting, the reality is that it just a drop in the bucket.
And the untangling of all of this and the fightback isn’t going to happen overnight. On the global stage America and its allies are undermining the pillars of international law.
The biggest threat to global order and stability today isn’t Iran. Isn’t China. Isn’t Russia.
It’s America and its allies.
This isn’t “fatalism.” Because I am not American and don’t live in America. I’m really fucking scared of what you are going to do next. It’s fucking terrifying because so many governments worldwide are both following your lead AND just letting you do it.
I used to have dreams of visiting America. I wanted to drive the fabled “Route 66.” Visit the Statue of Liberty. The Grand Canyon. I wanted to ride the railways, getting off at a random stop anywhere, and just exploring.
Those dreams are dead now. For starters…my health wouldn’t allow it. Secondly, it would be too much of a risk. We’ve had Kiwis end up in detention and it hasn’t been pleasant. And thirdly…America doesn’t mean anything to me any more. I never really believed in the “land of the free, home of the brave” mantra before. But I thought at least it was aspirational.
But not any more. And I’m not alone. America will maintain its position in “global leadership” because it is the most powerful nation on the planet and will silence opposition either through sanctions or bombs. But it isn’t the bastion of freedom and speech that it imagines itself to be. Instead its a danger to freedom and democracy globally and has to be stopped.
Nobody is arguing you should “give up.”
I just want Americans to hurry up and get to the stage of “acceptance” because until you do there won’t ever be an effective resistance.
But why? If we are truly in a dictatorship and the Democratic process is purely a meaningless Potemkin Village to make the dictator look good, then we shouldn’t be engaging with it.
The only reason to vote, campaign, or primary your local candidate is if the OP is wrong and we aren’t yet in a dictatorship, and the democratic process does still matter.
Why not? If our engagement is opposition, that seems okay.
…I don’t understand the question.
Nelson Mandela kept fighting even though the country was in the grip of apartheid. Why would you imagine I’d stop fighting even if my country had been taken over by dictators?
There is really nothing the minority party can do. calling them “ineffectual” is then incorrect. They are doing that they can- which is damn little.
However-
Not NPR. Not CNN. Not MSNBC. Not the New republic. I could go on, but there are LOTs of liberal media not controls by the right.
The 2025 elections proved this. Free elections are still here.
…I disagree.
Look at the ownership of CNN. Look at how ownership of media has been consolidated in the last decade. Its in the control of the billionaire class. The oligarchs.
And by “all” that is obviously hyperbole. But I’m talking about this.
Much of what is considered “liberal media” are in effect IMHO, not really “liberal” at all. But that’s a subject for another debate.
But he, rightly, didn’t engage in the charade of the apartheid electoral process (from which he was barred from voting in due to his race)
Now this is starting to get into conspiracy stuff. I am out.
Is the New World Order and the Illuminati next?
…so what?
You are viewing this through the lens of history. As if saying “we are post-democracy” is something that happened in the past, where I’m viewing it as “the present”, which means we have the ability to shape the future.
Will primarying the local candidate change the course of the future? I don’t know. But it might make things better where I live. It might push fascism back in my neighbourhood or my city or (if I lived in America) my state. Just a little bit. It might keep hope alive.
Acknowledging what I consider to be the reality we live in is not a signal we have to give up.