**
There’s no force or expectation of submission. It’s not like that. It’s * wanting * to be together. It’s being generous with your time
Don’t get me wrong-- we’re not joined at the hip. There are certainly times when we “do our own thing.” But if something is important to me, I want my husband to be there with me, and vice-versa.
Stating my opinion here…
Your S/O is close to you for a reason. Not only the physical aspect, but the emotional one as well. I personally have no objections to close friendships… However. When these friendships come between you and your S/O (in regard to amount of time spent with them, honesty, time spent with them), then it’s probably time to examine the situation and assess the problem at hand. It comes down to another person fulfilling the role the name “significant other” implies.
Nooo… Forgot to proofread. Supposed to be - (in regard to amount of time spent with them, honesty, positive feelings, etc.).
Linty Fresh, it is apparent to me that we have simply talked past each other. We do have a few areas of disagreement relative to the OP, and I will focus there, but first let me explain why I think we are not synching up in our language.
In your last two posts, you used the terms “open marriage” and “open relationship”. From what I can tell from your use of the term, then yes, that is exactly what I am talking about. Unfortunately, those terms often equate to swinging, which is not what I’m talking about. Swinging implies having sexual relationships outside any committed relationship, without necessarily having any emotional bonds in the outside sexual relationships. “Open marriage” has often taken on this connotation - I am referring to a concept more generally described as polyamory. I don’t believe that our definitions of emotional intimacy differ (let me know if you think otherwise).
To the contrary - I am talking about being totally open and honest in assessing your own feelings, and sharing those with your SO. Considering over half of the marriages in this country experience (physical) infidelity, I fail to understand how the pretense of a monogamous relationship implies a higher level of honesty.
And here is where we totally disagree. I suggest the criteria to determine it is whether the person with the outside relationship is both prepared and willing to share every detail of the relationship, being totally open and honest, with their SO. Anything short of that is a failure to be open and honest, and that indicates a true foundational crack in the SO relationship.
Your argument implies that it is dangerous to have such outside relationships, but perfectly (morally) acceptable if: 1) no physical contact occurs, and 2) you fail to inform your SO of the relationship. That seems an odd rationalization to me.
I think your analogies, except “various social diseases”, are interesting, but your analysis is flawed. Few of the folks burned in either economic crash thought they were above the laws of probability or natural constructs. They were caught up in a common social concept known as groupthink, falling prey to the “how can everyone else be wrong?” syndrome. It reinforces itself, not with empirical evidence or logical thought, but simply with the fact that everyone else is doing it. It marginalizes opposing thought, simply because it is different. Similar, IMHO, to the concepts of monogamy in today’s society.
Now, as for your inclusion of “various social diseases”, feel free to further develop your analogy. If you are suggesting that “open relationships” (but not swinging) or polyamory implies promiscuity (and promiscuity then implies increased “social disease”), I would be happy to refute that.
Please don’t misunderstand me, I am absolutely not suggesting that marriages are disposable, but indeed, to be cherished. All SO relationships are challenging, require effort to maintain, and cannot be taken for granted. I know that from personal experience. I’ve only been in one marriage, and I’ll be celebrating my fifteenth wedding anniversary in a few months.
But why do you assume that an outside relationship is necessarily a “difficulty”? Do you believe that humans cannot maintain more than one such relationship, or that they should not? And if the latter, upon what empirical or logical basis do you derive that conclusion? What benefits does society derive from intentionally limiting the human capability of intimacy, love, and compassion?
Please bear with me while I try to analyze the position you have taken with regards to my posts. In your first response to me, your last sentence said, “And again, I don’t think a person would develop that deep of an emotional relationship with someone else, unless things were kind of screwed up on his or her homefront.” I can empirically show this to be false if you attempt to apply it to all of humanity. I am able to accept that this is truth for you and many others in our society. In fact, it is consistent with the statement I made that infidelity is a symptom, not a cause, of a troubled relationship - a point with which you agreed.
In context, the last sentence could be restated that it is a “beautiful thing” if you can share your honest feelings regarding an outside relationship with your SO. Your response was that that “beautiful thing” has wrecked more than one marriage. Now, I interpretted that to mean that sharing your honest feelings about an outside relationship wrecks marriages. You reject that interpretation, but then talk about it being a sign of being less than honest with yourself and your SO.
Your clarification suggests that developing such outside relationships wrecks marriages. While it may be true for you, it is not necessarily true for everyone. In fact, such outside relationships often develop without forethought or devious planning, they just happen. It’s human nature, driven by human’s capability for love and compassion. It takes proactive resolve to prevent it from happening. When it happens, if you can’t be honest with your SO (for whatever reason), you’re stuck between a rock and hardplace.
To the OP, and open to anyone to respond:
Assume you are happily married, and have been for ten years. Your spouse comes to you one day and says:
Spouse: “We need to talk. I love you very much, and consider myself happily married. However, I must tell you, that I have developed strong emotional feelings for Lee/Leigh. While you were at work, we would often talk on the phone. Over time, the phone calls became more frequent and longer in duration. We began to share emotionally, and we have now become very close. I feel guilty for having these feelings, but I cannot keep them from you any longer, and I cannot ignore the fact that they exist. Nothing “physical” has happened. I love you very much, and I would not intentionally do anything to harm you or our marriage. I don’t know what to do, this is driving me crazy.”
How do you respond, and why?
before or after the grotesque scene of violence that would ensue, involving her, me, Lee, and probably any nearby friends, pets, and shrubbery?
I can honestly say that such an exchange would hurt me deeply, and would make me question the relationship that i have with my wife (who is also my best friend). i would be hurt, and would be unable to put aside suspicions in the future about their status. the beginning of the end, in other words.
for me, emotional closeness and physical closeness are very intertwined…it seems like only a matter of time before a close emotional relationship like we’ve discussed might cross that line.
btw- my wife has also made it clear that the situation would be very much the same should it be reversed…though i can’t imagine ever needing or wanting to go outside my marriage for emotional stimulation, let alone physical, since we share the same interests. those that we don’t share, we still make an effort to support, because everything is better when we are together (Lissa mentioned something along these lines, and i agree).
of course, as always, YMMV.
Stonebow, please tell me that your first sentence was hyperbole, and not to be taken literally.
You mention, “the beginning of the end”, but you really don’t address how you would respond (unless we are to take your first sentence literally :eek: ).
Would you feel that her “confession” already exceeds the unforgiveable, or is there room to save your relationship? If the latter, what would she have to say?
Why is her outside relationship a threat to your relationship?
Well, of course I have a personal interest in this thread since I started it.
This is very similar to what happened with my spouse and me. I have a long history of attachments to men because of a break with my father when I was very, very young (too young to remember). I have NEVER been promiscuious (my spouse of 11 years has been my only sex partner, and while I am human in terms of fantasizing, I have never considered having sex with someone else). I also have a very clear idea of when an attraction to someone is based on my childhood (i.e., a nonsexual attraction).
Occasionally, I develop a deep relationship based on this. Anyway, I basically brought this to my husband, and (I assume) his knowing my past history, while he expressed jealousy and other mixed feelings, he basically supports my relationship. I try to include him whenever possible in activities I do with my friend–I’ve had this friend for about a year now, we would have had many opportunties, but have never come close to “innappropriate contact”. Now, that may differ in definition, but to me, it means not doing anything that you wouldn’t do with your father or brother.
I know that there are many things I can give a person besides sex, but every once in a while I question why this person wants to be my friend, you know, what’s the motive…this could be a vestige of childhood, again. My friend is also in a committed relationship. I suspect we have similar reasons for being friends…many common interests that we don’t share with our SOs, and childhood pain that we share.
So that’s my view of the whole thing. I frequently question, am I doing the right thing? Am I hurting my husband? I know that I am lucky, lucky, lucky to be married to my wonderful man. I have asked him what he considers to be appropriate in relation to my friend. I would drop the relationship if he asked me to.
The relationship feels good, it feels right, and fills a hole in my heart. Of course, I started the thread not to seek validation, but I do hope to get different views. I’m sure I will never have a definite answer as to what emotional infidelity is, but will have to come to peace with it and trust my sense of right and wrong.
yes, it was hyperbole. jeez.
that does not mean that it would be pleasant in any way, shape, or form. and like i said, FaerieBeth and i have already discussed this sort of thing, and she’s of the same mind i am (yes, she could be lying, but let’s assume that she’s not since she’s very honest generally).
like i said, for me, emotional closeness like that is an open door to a more physical relationship, and i can’t see how i would not be constantly suspicious any time she was with him. bear in mind, we’re not discussing a casual friend, classmate, or group including male friends, we’re essentially talking ‘soulmate’ level relationship. I have 1 soulmate- i was lucky enough to marry her. She has 1 soulmate- she was unlucky enough to happen onto my path. 
i am not claiming that this is a rational reaction, or that everyone should feel this way (there has been some discussion of ‘open marriages’ and such that are totally outside the scope of my situation).
perhaps its because we have not been married very long (3 years this upcoming monday!) but it would just seem like her new ‘connection’; would be the herald of a deficiency in our relationship, one that had gone too long unremedied (in that respect, it would be my failure).
like i said, it would be the beginning of the end…unless we took some steps to correct things- counseling, probably. but i know that i’d not be willing to share her.
As I hope was clear from my posts, I would suggest that if you bring this to your husband, share your feelings with him honestly, you are not committing emotional infidelity. Understand, however, that from my perspective, even if it got physical, and you were honest about it and was accepting of it, it wouldn’t be infidelity, IMHO. It is more common than you might suspect (and not that I am recommending you pursue a physical relationship, btw).
By being honest, you give him all the information he needs to act and react as he feels necessary. That is critically important. Jealousy and mixed feelings aren’t surprising. But as long as you keep him involved in your life, and feelings, he will likely become more and more comfortable with your relationship (no guarantees, obviously).
You may have thought that was obvious, but there was a thread here a number of months back where some folks argued that spousal infidelity was a valid excuse for violence. So, sorry I had to ask.
For me at least, I have come to recognize that new ‘connections’ are not necessarily indicative of a deficiency in a marital relationship. And for what it is worth, I felt the same as you have expressed when I had been married for three years (and longer, for that matter).
Whatever happens in the long run, your comment about counseling sounds quite rational. Good luck to you and FaerieBeth for a long and happy marriage. Thanks for the clarification, too.
I have to admit, that 3 years+ into my relationship, I felt the same way, too as Cowboy (as you did) and Stonebow (as you do now). I like a wide variety of activities and my husband doesn’t. For years, I didn’t do any of those things because I wanted to be with him all the time. I didn’t think it was fair to make him do things that he doesn’t enjoy. Sure, he’d do (most of) those things with me, but I couldn’t enjoy myself if I knew he’d rather be doing something else.
Now, I feel that I need to do the things that I enjoy, and if that means I have to do them with someone else, so be it. It’s not a problem in the relationship, I view it as more maturity in that it’s okay to let go every once in a while, I’m not going to forget he’s #1 and vice versa.
Veering in a different direction
I think saying that you shouldn’t make a deep emotional connection to another person is similar to saying that you shouldn’t have a deep emotional connection with an adopted child. We are capable of loving infinitely, (giving of time is a different story). I think we do ourselves a disservice by limiting this to our blood, just MHO.
I remember some study into the rhetorical question:
Q: What would you prefer?
Apparently there was a huge gender split on the answer. Women mainly went for 1, men for 2.
Originally I was sorta swayed to 1, for the romance of it. Then I woke up to myself. People fantasise all the time. We dream of other people. It doesn’t matter from time to time, it’s like flirting. What matters is if it’s consistent and regular - then it counts. So if you spend an hour or so chatting to stranger in a bar and really clicking with them, and having a little mind-wandering fantasy, so what? Maybe you reveal your deepest darkest secrets, then never meet again.
It’s a problem when you start seeing that person regularly. When you know at the back of your mind there’s a little part wondering whether they would be a viable alternative to your current SO. When if you’re honest, you’ve got them on “stand by” if the current relationship breaks up.
Nothing wrong with a deep emotional connection. I think it’s easily possible for people to have deep, platonic friendships with a person other than our SO, maybe even deeper in certain areas if there’s an interest shared that isn’t shared with the SO. Eg love of a particular author, or gardening, music, technology - something like that. But when the intellectual - or common interest spark - turns into a strong and regular sexual spark, then there’s a problem.
When you know there’s a problem, and you know you’re playing with fire, then that’s emotional infidelity.
We’re not talking past each other. We’re talking about the same thing. We just think it means different things. I know what “open relationships” and “swinging” mean. I’m saying that if you’re not in this relationship, what you would say to your SO above is kind of . . . well, it’s extremely inappropriate.
So you “would not intentionally do anything to harm [your SO] or your marriage”? Guess what? You’re too late!! Now your SO has to live with this conversation running through his or her head. Now your SO has to realize that he or she (actually, if you don’t mind, I’ll just use “she” for the purposes of this post, so that I can emphasize with it more. Please feel free to correct me if this isn’t actually the case).
Now your SO has to realize that she isn’t the main woman in your life. There’s someone else. Spin it however you want. You’ve got someone else in your life, and she’s getting what used to be your SO’s. Why get married or go steady in the first place?
Do you want to break this woman’s heart? Because that’s what you’re going to do with this conversation. If she loves you, Cowboy, this is going to break her heart, although she might be too afraid of losing you to admit it. But one way or another, things are never going to be the same. And it’ll be your fault, not hers.
Also, I want to answer your question, but I want to turn it around so that it’s me telling my wife. I’m sorry, but I can’t imagine someone like Mrs. Fresh pulling this stunt. Part of the reason I love her is that she has oodles more sense than I do.
Assuming my wife didn’t leave me on the spot (A safe assumption), she would almost certainly give me an ultimatum, this other girl or her. She knows what you, apparently, do not: You can have your cake, or you can eat your cake. You cannot possibly do both.
What if you’re a happily married woman who has a best friend who is also a woman? What if you are very emotionally close to your best friend, and share intimate details of your life with her, including long talks about important things? Are you committing “emotional infidelity” with your best friend? Are you secretly gay, too?
I think that some people are reading “I have developed strong emotional feelings for someone” as “I fell in love with someone else”, while some people are reading it as “I have this person whom I’ve grown really close to, which is weird, because I’m married to you”. I think at that point you should ask your spouse to cut the shit and just ask “Are you in love with this person?”
That’s the problem, Cowboy. You’re not being honest here. At all. You’re taking infidelity (physical infidelity, mind you) and trying to claim that it’s somehow not infidelity. You’re looking at the word “Dog” and reading K-A-T. And then, when someone calls you on your spelling, you refuse to take responsibility. Even if we disagree on what is emotional infidelity, there’s no question of the impropriety of getting “physical” with someone other than your spouse/SO.
Let me turn your hypothetical situation around. Let’s say you tell your spouse:
and she gives you the ultimatum. “You can be with her or you can be with me, but I’ll leave you if you keep this relationship up!!”
What would you do? Would you choose your wife over Lee/Leigh? Or would you break up your marriage? And if you decided to break up your marriage, whom would you blame? Yourself or your spouse?
The thing you have to keep in mind about honesty, Cowboy, is that truth–the honest truth–is rarely convenient, and I don’t think our definitions of honesty quite match each other.
I prefer to live in such a way that honesty is never inconvenient, myself.
An emotional relationship cannot be infidelity if all the people involved do not consider it in violation of their vows. A physical relationship cannot be infidelity if all of the people involved do not consider it in violation of their vows. If a person can honestly say that their actions are not in violations of their vows, and their partner or partners agree, who is anyone else to call it infidelity?
You say “there’s no question of the impropriety of getting ‘physical’ with someone other than your spouse/SO.” I call that bluff. I say that if the people involved have no problems, there is no impropriety; if the people involved do have such restrictions in place, then there is impropriety. The presumption that all people have those restrictions is simply false. (And I just got back from a lovely evening hanging out with my husband’s local girlfriend.)
Personally, if anyone pulled a “pick this person or pick me” stunt on me, that person would be out of my life on their ass just like that. I don’t have any tolerance for that sort of emotional blackmail; I would consider that a really nasty stunt to pull and a violation of whatever relationship commitments I had with that person. Fortunately, those are actually the commitments I have, and someone who behaved thusly would actually be in violation of those agreements.
What about situations in which one person in the relationship has been through some kind of trauma (sexual abuse, something like that) and can only work out those demons by talking to someone else who has already been through it?
What about the things that a woman only talks about with her ‘girlfriends’ or a man only talks about with his ‘buddies’?
I’ve been reading this thread and I am having a little trouble wrapping my head around the idea that if I have a SO, that pretty much means that I have no close male friends that I talk to about deep things. I don’t understand that because I think that a relationship is made up of two (or more) people who choose to share their lives with each other, but that doesn’t mean that neither of them will ever have another part of their life that isn’t separate from the relationship.
I don’t think that a boyfriend or a husband could be everything and everyone I would ever need to talk to about things that are on my mind, and I’d hope he didn’t feel that way about me.
Emotional infidelity just seems like a weird concept to me maybe because it’s so hard to define, and it seems like things which would be taken as ‘cheating’ or ‘not cheating’ depend on the gender of the friend.
If I tell my best female friend some things about having been raped that I don’t tell my boyfriend, is that infidelity? What if I tell those things to my best male friend, but not to my boyfriend?
It seems kind of like the idea that if I, a woman, were to become involved in a serious relationship with a man, I’d never be able to go to the movies on a friday with one of my best friends because he’s a man, or that our friendship which has for years been very close would have to become more superficial because now all of a sudden I’m not supposed to treat him like the close-enough-to-be-my-brother that he has been for five years.
I hope that was a little coherent, not easy to put my thoughts on this into words.
I’ve already mentioned (twice) that this debate isn’t about open marriages or swinging couples. We’re talking about people who have agreed to be in monogamous relationships. If you are in this sort of relationship, then getting physical with someone else is infidelity. Starting a monogamous relationship and then switching over to an open relationship when you get bored isn’t kosher, especially if you don’t bother to let your spouse know first.
Thus, as far as this is concerned:
No. In this scenario, you’re the one in violation of your commitments. You’re the one holding your SO’s emotions hostage. It’s not enough for your SO to love you. He or she has to trust and respect you as well, if your relationship is to work. If you pull this with an SO to whom you’ve promised monogamy, he’s got every right to demand this of you. And he would be smart to get out of the relationship if you refused, because you would have violated his trust.
I don’t think that people are saying you can never have a close relationship with a member of the opposite sex if you have a SO. The concept of emotional infidelity makes me very uncomfortable, because I do consider to be worse than physical infidelity. It’s hard to define where that line is though. I’m tempted to say it’s like porn–I’ll know when I see it, but that’s not entirely fair. I think that the line I personally draw is, at any given moment would my husband rather be with another woman? Would he think to himself “Well, pepper is nice, but I wish I was with Leigh right now.”
Even that is not quite what I mean either…it’s hard to explain. i mean, when I’m with my husband, I never wish I’m with someone else. I never think “I’d be happier if I was talking to person X” or “You know, if I was with person Y, he would totally understand what I’m going through.” I think that’s the line…
Actually, Linty Fresh, if I were in a monogamous relationship I still wouldn’t tolerate having that sort of emotional blackmail pulled on me. And I hope I’d be smart enough to make that clear right upfront; if I weren’t, I’d consider that my failing, but if it ever came up I’d make damn sure that my partner was aware that if someone wants to force a choice on me where I see no need for antagonism, it’ll be the person who’s being divisive that I’ll remove from my life.
You don’t know what sort of agreements I’d make or what boundaries I consider important; that means that you’re fairly ill-equipped to inform me what position I should hold or dictate what circumstances I’m permitted to speak from.
okay…this ‘debate’ has pretty much been about our own personal feelings, right? so i don’t think that it’s anyone’s place to judge what someone else would or would not do. in that, Lilairen, i agree with you.
however, i am getting a sense of superiority coming from the folks that don’t believe in fidelty, whether physical, emotional, or both- as though you have somehow ‘evolved’ past the concerns being brought up. there seems to be contempt for people who make an effort to share in everything with their SO- there are plenty of things that my wife does that i don’t share fully…but i’d be a bad husband if i did not try to share at all. this is not a guilt thing, a force thing, a pressure thing, or a selfish thing…this is being in love with my wife. there is no ‘blackmail’ involved- it just happens naturally. my wife and i share a LOT of interests- those that occupy a large part of our lives…i can’t imagine marrying someone that i would not be able to share that with.
as for the horseracing hypothetical…well, doing something that your spouse thinks is unethical seems like a big mistake in my book. that sort of thing needs to be resolved before they are your spouse.
we all have different boundaries to our relationships, and decisions like this need to be made in that context. i can only tell you what i would do, and i’d appreciate not being made to feel like a caveman for it. perhaps my view of fidelity is simplistic- so long as my wife shares it, why should you care?
as Linty Fresh mentioned, i had thought that we had excluded open, swinging, etc. relationships from this hypothetical because the ground rules are so far outside the norm that it renders this question moot.
back to our hypothetical confession the part of the SO, though, one thing has struck me. these deep friendships do not just ‘pop up.’ in the SO’s ‘confession,’ she admits to meeting/talking with ‘Lee’ without my knowledge, and that her involvement has increased in frequency and duration. how am i to tell the difference between this ‘emotional’ behavior and the early stages of a physical infidelity? I’m glad that my wife is a genuine, caring person, but i’d not want her to be this emotionally open to anyone but me, and i reciprocate that. there’s also no context in which i’d want her just going out and talking with another man, especially one that i don’t know.
note- we are also not discussing pre-existing friendships. my wife and i have kept all of our friends from before our getting together- the only difference is that there is an effort to include everyone in our plans (So’s, friends, etc.). if my wife wants to lunch with a guy friend, sure. alone? sure. though i’d bet i got invited, because that’s how we do things. if she’d prefer his company over mine? um…no. symptom of a bigger issue.
well, that was sufficiently long-winded. sorry.