Is this unethical? (People with morals needed)

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’ll supply more details later, but I want to get you all started on a little poll.

A person is performing paid military funeral honors (paid for by the government) for the burial of a deceased veteran. He folds the flag, does a little dog-n-pony show, Taps is played, and that’s that. Afterwards, the widow approaches him and his partner with twenty bucks each. “Here. Thank you all. You did a wonderful job. Please, have lunch today on me” And she places the money in their hands.

Is this acceptable gratuity? Or unethical compensation? My first impulse was “not acceptable”. But as I thought about it later, there is no ‘bribe’ or chance for corruption or anything like that here. Not like when someone hands a cop 20 bucks for doing a great job. This is different. This is extra money for doing an excellent performance.

But still. . . I’m not sure that it’s right. What do you all think?

2

“Ma’am, thank you for the kind gesture, but I am here at the service of our government and I may not accept gratuities.”

“Please sonny, you did such a fine job.”

“Ma’am, if you insist, may I suggest that you donate it to a charity of your choice in the memory of your dear departed.”

I wouldn’t say accepting it is unethical. Merely unnecessary.

3

Asking the widow for $$ beforehand so you don’t “screw up” = unethical.

Accepting a gesture from a bereaved woman that will make her feel better = ethical.

I dunno if it was you that was doing the flag business, but if she wanted you to go have lunch on her because you did a really good job and it made the ceremony special for her, then go have lunch.

4

I vote that whether this is ethical depends on the traditional role of the person doing the service. No doubt he’s supposed to accept a gratuity or he’s supposed to decline it. So a water that facilitates your getting a meal at a restaurant operates under the preexisting supposition that gratuities are acceptable, and a nurse that facilitates your getting treatment at your doctor’s office operates under the opposite supposition. Seems to me these are pretty similar situations that differ mostly in the custom surrounding gratuities.

5

Assuming there’s no military rule forbidding it:

I’d say that the serviceman should at least refuse until the giver insists. I wouldn’t consider it a “tip” or as extra money for an excellent performance. I’d think that the widow was giving the money to express how much the service meant to her and in some small way she wanted to let the honor guard know how thankful she is that her husband was sent off with such dignity and respect.

Not a “thank you” gift – more a “I can NEVER thank you enough for how much this meant to me, but please accept this very small token of my deepest appreciation.”

The guard should refuse but take it if she insists. It’s going to make HER feel better than the lunch they buy with it will.

I don’t want to start any argument, but your wording of the ceremony as a dog-and-pony show is somewhat unsettling. It’s a family’s valuable last moment with a deceased veteran. Maybe I’m reading too much into the phrase. :confused:

6

Please don’t read into it like that. It’s just an expression.

I can completely appreciate the solemness of the honors, of the flag presentation and of playing Taps. But keep in mine it is a performance. When the Old Guard (3rd US Infantry at Arlington) is training and prefecting their ceremonies, the mind set is not “how can we make this more sentimental for the family”, but rather “how can we make this look really sharp”. Deep pride is taken in personal appearance and performance. It’s “wow, I folded that flag perfectly” or “man that flag was a little loose. Damn wind!”. It’s not “I tried my best to touch the heart of the widow, and it worked. I rock!”

I hope that’s coming out right. While it is indeed “a family’s valuable last moment with a deceased veteran”, it is a job for me. It is a task handed down to me. I am performing a honor ceremony on “behalf of the President, and the people of a greatful nation”. Since I do not know the deceased, it’s not a valuable last moment for me. It’s a duty. One, like any, that I perform to the very best of my ability. So… Though, I’m not completely insensitive or blind to the turmoil of mixed emotoins in the family of the deceased, I don’t get overly caught up in that aspect of the assignment.

… anyway. I’ve said way more than I wanted. I need to meet people for dinner. I will post more later this evening and tell the story.

7

what she said.

8

I’m sure I can try and find more but I found this:

So I guess it would be OK legally but questionable. It would go against my ethics. I would refuse and make sure anyone under me would refuse also. The government is already paying. Here is the site with the DOD ethics rules.

9

I don’t see anything wrong with it, as long as the recipient of the $20 first tell sthe widow that it’s unneccessary. She might be used to tipping and think that it’s required.

So more like this (first two quotes are Standup Karmic’s, obviously):

“Ma’am, thank you for the kind gesture, but I am here at the service of our government and I may not accept gratuities.”

“Please sonny, you did such a fine job.”

“Thank you, ma’am. I’m very sorry for your loss.”

Don’t argue with a widow. It’s unseemly. If it makes you feel better, donate the money to a charity, but don’t tell her you will be doing it. Accept the gift in the spirit it was meant.

10

Damn! One-upped, again! I like Mithril’s approach better than mine.

11

Aw, shucks. It tweren’t nuthin’.

12

Unethical? No, unless there is a rule against it.

This happens at my job occasionally (I’m an RN with long term patients) and we do have a policy much like the one Loach posted that allows a maximun of $20.00 value per person per episode, or a $50.00 value to a group of employees.

I personally do not accept money gifts for my work. We do like cookies and pictures, though.

13

I work for a Federal contractor, and if I recall correctly, our limit on accepting gifts is $25. Don’t know if active military would have different rules. But the intent of that is more to let us accept hats of T-shirts or whatnot from vendors, not tips.

But still, don’t embarrass a widow. If she offered and you refused and she insisted, making a scene would hardly be honorable. Just accept it and donate it to your charity of choice (or the deceased’s) if that makes you feel better.

14

If there are no laws against accepting gratuities, I don’t see an ethical problem with it. A service was provided, the recipient was pleased enough to give a tip, where’s the fuss?

15

Perfectly ethical to accept, others have detailed why. Personally, I’d drop the $20 in a street performer’s hat, or leave the waitress at dinner a nice tip. I wouldn’t pocket it. But that is just my own sense of values. YMMost certainly willV. :smiley:

16

:Burp: Back from dinner.

Wow. Thanks for all the great replies everyone. Now I’m starting to feel bad for not accepting the money. :mad: Please tell me I didn’t look like a bad person. That would be so ironic.

I’ve been doing a lot of these details lately. Basically because I can use the money. Hell I need the money. I’ve had 97 cents in my bank account for a week and a half. So, damn. Twenty dollars would have increased my net worth more than 20 fold.
Anyway. I was actually at the cemetery for a later scheduled ceremony. While we were waiting for that one, we got a call asking if we could be ready to do one in 10 minutes. So we hurridly (<–a word?) got dressed and made it out to the site. Apparantly the man was supposed to receive complete honors to include pall bearers and the works. But the Air Force (damn flyboys) guys had not made it. They never showed up so there was no one to do the ceremony. So at the last minute, my buddy and I pulled off a kick ass two man honor ceremony. Fortunately the deceased has also served in the Army, so I was thankful of that. At least one member of the honor detail needs to be from the deceased’s branch to present the flag to the widow. So, technically we were ok with two Army guys.

Well after it was over, my buddy and I were standing off to the side. Out of sight - out of mind. Some of the family came up to thank us and shake our hands and stuff. This is normal and pretty much expected.
The widow put her flag in her car and walked over to us. As she was thanking me, she took a 20 and put it in my hand.
I felt like Gandalf when Frodo tried to hand him The Ring. “You mustn’t tempt me with such things!” I thought to myself.

Here’s the thing. This was so out of the blue that I haven’t even heard of this. No one I had talked to had ever mentioned anything like this. There’s never been any policy, rules, SOPs or advice given to me governing such things. But for whatever reason, I just associate tips for “official duty” to be bad. I’ve had drinks bought for me, or that sort of thing, because I was in uniform. But that’s just a “Thanks for being in the Army” type of thing. This was a direct “thanks for doing a specific job.” Does that make sense?

But anyway, it just didn’t feel right. This lady was so sad, yet so thankful. All I could thinnk was “Dont you dare take this lady’s money!!!” After she insisted, then my thoughts turned to “Can I even take her money? Is it allowed??”
The brief exchange (no pun intended) went something like this:

Lady- Thank you so much! That was so beautiful. You did a great job!

Me- ::smiling thankfully:: Thank you, maam. Thank you. I was glad to do it.

Lady- ::slowly placing a 20 in my hand; shaking and showing both her grief and her age:: Here. I want you two to have lunch on me. You deserve this. You were great.

Me- :with an even bigger smile: Oh maam. Wow, maam. I so appreciate that. But. . . this isn’t necessary maam. It was truly my honor to be here. :start to hand it back::

Lady- Oh now. You keep that. I insist, you really did a great job. I don’t know where them Air Force boys are. But they never made it. I know this was last minute for you. (paraphrasing now)

Me- Maam. . . :looking her in the eyes: This was truly my honor today. And I’m glad to have done it. I was glad to be here for this. I appreciate your generosity, but no… no I just couldn’t. Thank you so much though… Thank you.

She accepted her 20 and was like “Well, ok. Thank you boys. Thank you” What followed was about 5-10 minutes of more informal talk about her grandson in the Army, stories about her husband and that sort of thing. One of her sons joined her by then, and she joked with him about “How hard it is to give away money these days”. Explaining that “Neither of these fine boys would accept it”. (Though, she never actually tried to offer the other guy any money. He didn’t even know any was offered until I told him later that she had a 20 for each of us)
“What are they teaching boys these days,” the son said jokingly.
And of course I reassured her that this was an honor for me. (Even a dog-n-pony show can be honorable for a person :wink: )
She thanked us again, a went on her way. I wished her a safe trip back home, and we left to go perform another detail.

So that was pretty much it. It wasn’t until the ride home that I started to think maybe it would not have been wrong to take it. Now, from what people are saying, it was wrong to not take it. Arghhhh!

Looking back is one thing. But being in the situation, actually standing there, I can tell you that it didn’t feel like it was right. It didn’t feel like the right thing to me. Maybe next time I will no to decline. Then let her insist. And then accept?
I could always donate to the non-profit dolphin hospital I volunteer at. But honestly, I’m really not a “moral” person. If I would have left with that 20 bucks, it would have stayed in my pocket. Heck, I bet if I didn’t think I’d be breaking some rule, I maybe would have taken it. I can’t honestly say. But I can say, that for whatever reason, it didn’t feel like the right thing to do at the time.

17

As long as the “performers” are not standing around afterward holding out their caps:

Take the money (to make the bereft feel better). Have dinner, tip the hell outta the wait staff, have a drink in honest silence and memory for the dead veteran and al that he symbolizes in the fraternity of green collar workers, write a brief note to the widow thanking her for the gift and the opportunity to serve her husband at the last.

And carry on.

18

Bear, what you did right there was the right thing to do. You honored her husband, you talked to her as a person, and you made me proud as a citizen.

Thank you.

19

Though maybe not even relevant, but just to make it clear. She handed me a twenty but she still had another twenty in her hand. A 20 she was going to hand to my friend, but our conversation sort of stopped that.

The more I think about it. The more the Gandalf allusion seems appropriate. Man, I wanted that 20 dollars. Maybe it was my eagerness to take it. The greed for that 20 bucks that made me feel it was wrong. I could feel my lust for this 20 dollars and so I couldn’t help but think I’d be wrong to take it. That it would be taking advantage of this lady. And like I said. Once I’d have it, I wouldn’t be donating to anything. It would probably end up paying a bill or buying a round of drinks or something.

20

oops…sorry Bear. Didn’t see your post. Looks like a week of faux pas. :smack: Did funeral details myself–the mind is so into being accurate and correct and “by the book” that you kinda get in your own little world. I can’t imagine getting blind-sided with a tip with no SOP to look to. Whatever, dude. Follow your heart, I’m sure she didn’t think you were rude–at worst she felt funny about offering an inappropriate tip. After all, you are part of the equipment at the ceremony, she couldn’t have realized that.