Is Tim Tebow a good quarterback or not?

[Marley23]

@Cheesesteak

He WAS the starting QB on a team that went 7-4, and won a playoff game.

Mark Sanchez was the starting QB of a team that went 20-12 over his first two years and they made the AFC championship game twice. The stats show he wasn’t very good either of those years, and at this point everyone agrees he sucks.

@TriPolar

All good points, but it ignores the fact that one season, or one season’s worth of games approximately, is usually insufficient to measure the quality of a quarterback.

I don’t think that’s true, and to the extent Skelton and Gabbert and Cassel played in 2012, they were still terrible. The Seahawks brought in two other quarterbacks and let Jackson go, the Browns drafted another QB, and Painter signed a reserve contract with the Giants after not playing in 2012.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Let’s not forget also that when with Denver, Tebow had the benefit of a good run game and defense. And his stat lines were consistently awful passing the ball. He’d be something like 6-16 for 103 yds and a TD (and several times, that would be the winning TD, but still).

I think people are still enamored with him because they attribute that “special somethingness fearless leader” quality to him. He may have that, I don’t know. I don’t hate the guy…in fact, I quite like him. Him leading Denver over the Steelers last playoffs was a pretty beautiful thing. How embarrassing for the Steelers…

[Great_Antibob]

@Cheesesteak

Maybe Orton would have done just as well. All that means is that Tebow is just as good as a guy who was a starter for 4 years. Boy, he really sucks.

Again, it ignores the difference in strength of schedule and that Denver’s defense got healthy at the right time. Does anybody claim Tebow is “just as good” as Peyton Manning because they got to the same stage in the playoffs? It’s special treatment again. A non-Heismann winning QB from a random college with the same skillset wouldn’t have lasted 1 season, much less the 4 Tebow will be getting.

Playing ‘what if’ is fine, but trying to pretend that you can substitute the two absent any context is not reasonable. So, again, meh. This debate popped up in 2011 and the same points were made.

And no, he wasn’t just as good. When people bring it up, they bring up number of wins (as you do) or intangibles, like how he “provided a spark”. Number of wins is nice, but I don’t lay that just on the QB. That defense kept them in games they might otherwise have lost. Good QBs aren’t a football team on their own. And ‘intangibles’ are just ways of justifying going with gut feelings over the numbers.

He wasn’t that good and teams and strength of schedule eventually caught up (again, 3 game losing streak to end the season, including a bad beat down from the Patriots).

For what it’s worth, on different teams Tebow was a 3rd string QB behind Mark Sanchez and Greg McElroy and never had a realistic shot at starting. Orton was Tony Romo’s backup and Dallas was considered to have one of the best backup situations in the league.

[Loach]

@Cheesesteak

Don’t give me ‘meh’. I’m talking about the posters above who claim that Tebow is SO BAD that he shouldn’t even be on the roster as a 3rd string QB. He WAS the starting QB on a team that went 7-4, and won a playoff game. When he was on the field the team scored points, perhaps a few less points than under Orton, but he also was missing a Pro Bowl receiver who was traded away during the bye week. Only in “I hate Tebow” land can an offense trade away, mid season, a receiver who led the league in yardage and then be criticized for not being quite as good after the trade.

This isn’t even about crediting him with the wins, merely admitting that having him as QB isn’t a death sentence. He didn’t go out there and crap his pants, ruining the team’s playoff chances, the offense did OK.

Maybe Orton would have done just as well. All that means is that Tebow is just as good as a guy who was a starter for 4 years. Boy, he really sucks.

Yes he does suck. Can’t throw his way out of a wet paper bag. Runs good though. In those games he won with the Broncos the defense played amazingly well. To the point that the games came down to a couple of plays. In a few games he was able to run well enough to get the one score they needed. And they had a good running game overall. But he is not a good passer. Which is the only thing that really matters in the NFL. There is a term for 3rd year running quarterbacks in the NFL, retired. All the other good young running QBs in the league right now also have strong accurate arms. Too early to tell if they have the staying power of a QB star but they each have better skills than Tebow. Next year he may be a 3rd string somewhere. Maybe.

[Marley23]

@Great_Antibob

For what it’s worth, on different teams Tebow was a 3rd string QB behind Mark Sanchez and Greg McElroy and never had a realistic shot at starting. Orton was Tony Romo’s backup and Dallas was considered to have one of the best backup situations in the league.

Although nobody on Planet Earth understand why the Jets got him in the first place.

[Cheesesteak]

@Marley23

Mark Sanchez was the starting QB of a team that went 20-12 over his first two years and they made the AFC championship game twice. The stats show he wasn’t very good either of those years, and at this point everyone agrees he sucks.

He got 4 years of starting to prove his incompetence, because he apparently has “the tools” to be a QB. Tebow will not be allowed even 1 year of being a starter to prove himself. Not even on a team with no decent QB, they’ll pick some journeyman off the scrap heap because he fits the model.

[TriPolar]

@Marley23

I don’t think that’s true, and to the extent Skelton and Gabbert and Cassel played in 2012, they were still terrible. The Seahawks brought in two other quarterbacks and let Jackson go, the Browns drafted another QB, and Painter signed a reserve contract with the Giants after not playing in 2012.

Ok, but I don’t think there’s a way for either of us to prove our points. I think there are a few truly great quarterbacks who demonstrate such skill rapidly that there’s no question of their ability, and of course those who demonstrate a noticeable lack of skill. In between the extremes I think circumstances make the difference. I find Tebow to fall in that middle zone.

[Marley23]

@Cheesesteak

He got 4 years of starting to prove his incompetence, because he apparently has “the tools” to be a QB.

Right. But even in the first two years, with a limited role and a good won-loss record, he did not play very well.

Tebow will not be allowed even 1 year of being a starter to prove himself. Not even on a team with no decent QB, they’ll pick some journeyman off the scrap heap because he fits the model.

Right. Because Tebow can’t throw the ball as well as even a below-average NFL quarterback, so teams would rather find a guy who can throw instead of revamping their entire offense to suit one guy who can’t.

[Cheesesteak]

@Great_Antibob

This debate popped up in 2011 and the same points were made.

And no, he wasn’t just as good. When people bring it up, they bring up number of wins (as you do) or intangibles, like how he “provided a spark”. Number of wins is nice, but I don’t lay that just on the QB. That defense kept them in games they might otherwise have lost. Good QBs aren’t a football team on their own. And ‘intangibles’ are just ways of justifying going with gut feelings over the numbers.

I’ll scare up some numbers, sometime this afternoon. No wins no intangibles, stats from Pro Football Reference. I’ll compare Tebow 2011 to Orton 2011 (in denver) and Sanchez 2011, just for giggles.

Now, in an effort to be fair, can we allow that Tebow need not be better than those two to be considered a legitimate option at QB? Orton is considered a competent backup to Romo, and Sanchez was signed to a Franchise QB type of deal in the 2011 offseason before turning into Butt Fumble Boy. The anti-Tebow crowd suggest that he flat out sucks as a QB and should only be the prayer coach on an NFL team. That is what I think is unfair.

[Marley23]

@Cheesesteak

I’ll scare up some numbers, sometime this afternoon. No wins no intangibles, stats from Pro Football Reference. I’ll compare Tebow 2011 to Orton 2011 (in denver) and Sanchez 2011, just for giggles.

How about this?

@Marley23

With greater or similar numbers of attempts, Tebow’s completion percentage was lower than that of Tarvaris Jackson, Blaine Gabbert, John Skelton, Curtis Painter, Colt McCoy, and Matt Cassel. Those guys are all either backups, starting only because their teams suck and have no other options/haven’t cut the cord yet, or are out of the league entirely (Painter). Few people think they have a shot at becoming even decent players. And Tebow’s completion percentage wasn’t just lower than theirs, it was significantly lower. Every one of those guys completed more than 50 percent of their passes - Gabbert was the worst at almost 51% - and Tebow completed 46.5%. Tebow’s yards per passing attempt were below Jackson and Skelton, about the same as Cassel and Painter, and better than McCoy and Gabbert.

In 2011 Sanchez completed 56.7% of his passes and Orton completed 59.5%. Sanchez had 6.4 yards/attempt and Orton was at 7. Again, Tebow completed 46.5% of his passes for a bit under 6.4 yards/attempt.

[Great_Antibob]

@TriPolar

In between the extremes I think circumstances make the difference. I find Tebow to fall in that middle zone.

Fair enough, but those guys generally don’t last long and are dropped, anyway. They’re not considered competent but merely placeholders until a team finds the QB of the future.

@Cheesesteak

Now, in an effort to be fair, can we allow that Tebow need not be better than those two to be considered a legitimate option at QB?

Orton himself isn’t considered a legitimate option at QB unless nobody else is available, so I’d say no. A legitimate backup? Sure.

@Cheesesteak

The anti-Tebow crowd suggest that he flat out sucks as a QB and should only be the prayer coach on an NFL team. That is what I think is unfair.

Why? People have been claiming for years (longer than Tebow’s been in the league, actually) that both Orton and Sanchez sucked as QBs. More moderate people claimed they were mediocre to below average QBs. And if Tebow is being compared with them…

[Hamlet]

@Marley23

Although nobody on Planet Earth understand why the Jets got him in the first place.

I thought it was pretty clear that the Jets acquired Tebow to appease Woody Johnson, the owner of the Jets. He rarely saw the field because the coaches know he’s a horrid passer, but he’s on the Jets, and seeing a little time there, because of Woody.

[pancakes3]

• He’s short and isn’t Drew Brees so he’ll never “develop” into a pocket passer no matter how hard he works at it.
• He’s slow. A 4.71 40 time puts him at Linebacker/Tight End category. He’d never be able to pull off the read option like Griffin. Hell, Andrew Luck ran a 4.6. There are punters as fast, if not faster.
• He’s inaccurate. In his 14 starts, he has 8 sub-50% accuracy games, 3 exactly 50% games, and only 3 +50% games.

For his comeback magic.

1st game 12/16/2010 improbable comeback vs the Texans.

2nd game 10/23/2011 comeback against the winless Dolphins where the defense gave Tebow 4 possessions for 2 TD’s in the 4th quarter. Then in OT the defense forced a fumble that led to 3 straight rushes and a 52 yard fg to win.

3rd game 11/17/2011. The Jets game. 2 possessions to score once. FG ties. Game winning drive is composed of 3 completions for 25 yards, 2 incompletions, and 6 rushes for 57 yards.

4th game 11/27/2011 against the 4-7 Chargers. The last 3 scores are FG, FG, FG for the broncos. That, and the chargers missed a 48 yarder early in the 4th and ran out of time due to a lack of TO’s and a game saving Sack by Dumervil. The actual game winning drive had Tebow incomplete 1 pass and rush 3 times for 14 yards (McGahee had the 24 yard set-up-the-fg winner). The Chargers punt 6 times, which is a lot except the Broncos punt 9 times.

12/4/2011 A shootout vs the 2-10 Vikings. Another game that ends with FG-FG. 13 first downs for Denver, 27 for Minny. 336 total yards for Denver and 489 for Minny. Really the game was close due to an early pick-6 for the Broncos, 2 miracle passes to Demaryius Thomas, and **a game-winning pick with 1 min remaining. **

12/11/11 against the mighty 7-6 Bears. Tebow has a point to prove and takes 39 passing attempts. Caleb Hanie (not Jay Cutler) only manages 19 pasess. The Broncos defense forces 11 punts. The 4th quarter summarizes as: Tebow fumble, Chicago 3 rushes and punts, Tebow 1 completion and 3 incompletions punts, Chicago 3 rushes and punts, Miracle Tebow drive, Chicago recovers onside kick and punts, 59 yard FG - TO GO TO OT. Then in OT, fumble recovery leading to a 51 yd FG.

1/8/2012. The last hurrah vs the 12-5 Steelers. Tebow had a chance in the 4th but punted. Then 3 sacks and a delay of game kept Big Ben from getting into FG territory. So basically, the story of the game is 5 Denver sacks and a walkoff hail mary to Demarius Thomas.

Now, respectfully, Tebow did make those miracle passes but you can’t hinge an offense on luck. Those wins were made by coaching, the defense giving them many many chances at offense, and a wunderleg kicker who can blast 50 yarders in that mile high setting. Oh, and the teams being for the most part garbage doesn’t hurt.

Why yes, I did take the day off sick and have all sorts of time to kill. Why do you ask?

[Loach]

@Cheesesteak

He got 4 years of starting to prove his incompetence, because he apparently has “the tools” to be a QB. Tebow will not be allowed even 1 year of being a starter to prove himself. Not even on a team with no decent QB, they’ll pick some journeyman off the scrap heap because he fits the model.

Because its easy to see even in practice if a QB can throw accurately and for distance. If he can’t do it there he will not improve in a game. As a quarterback Tebow is a good runner.

[Marley23]

@Hamlet

I thought it was pretty clear that the Jets acquired Tebow to appease Woody Johnson, the owner of the Jets. He rarely saw the field because the coaches know he’s a horrid passer, but he’s on the Jets, and seeing a little time there, because of Woody.

Right, but I don’t understand why Johnson wanted him. Did he buy into the hype? Did he just want the Jets to steal some headlines from the NY football team that was winning games?

[Aquadementia]

I think he may be a good quarterback, but that is not nearly good enough.
Even to my untrained eye his passing looks labored compared to other quarterbacks in the league.
The skill level in the NFL is just too high, that if you are playing a good team that is playing their best, you have to put the absolute best out on the field. There are just so few individuals that can fill that spot.
Even with a great quarterback like Peyton Manning, as we saw last week, if he makes a few mistakes and the coach makes a few bad decisions, another great team will punish you and take away the win.

[Little_Nemo]

Tebow seems like a nice guy and he apparently is good as a team leader. And he has some genuine football skills.

But I don’t think he’s got the skills to be a top quarterback. His passing is inconsistent and he doesn’t have the situational awareness a top quarterback needs. And he’s played enough pro games at this point that it doesn’t look like he will develop these skills.

I think Tebow has reached his level - he plays well enough to be a good back-up and his presence helps hold a team together. But he’s never going to a first choice as a starter - any team that’s starting him is going to be looking for an opportunity to trade up to somebody better.

[Quercus]

It’s too bad he’s not faster, so he could be a WR, or a little bigger, so he could be a RB. Because it would be fun to see an offense that takes advantage of a RB who can pass (well enough to hit a very open receiver, anyway), but has a real QB to keep the defensive backs honest; wouldn’t you like to see a pitch to halfback who then has a pass/run option? Or even better a pass/run/throw back to the QB triple option? A wide receiver flea-flicker? Sure, they might not work in the NFL, but it would be fun seeing them try, right?

Unfortunately Tebow is one of those hybrids that combines the disadvantages of all types: throws as badly as a RB, as delicate as a WR, slow as a QB. (Yeah, he’s got the running moves of an RB, but so what? Acceptable-level RB is the least unique ability in the NFL)

[Sailboat]

God knows.

[Telemark]

@Marley23

Right, but I don’t understand why Johnson wanted him. Did he buy into the hype? Did he just want the Jets to steal some headlines from the NY football team that was winning games?

He thought it would generate buzz and sell tickets.