It is good that you “care less” about this thread. Glitch - you made some very good points based obviously on extensive experience and knowledge of this subject. I have read these threads for some time now and have never felt compelled to respond to any until now. The bantering between the two of you was entertaining as well as somewhat enlightening. I realize now that this debate ‘can’ be won by one side or the other as I belive we have seen here (I score it Glitch 6, blackwrangler98 3 - please don’t ask for the explanation of this scoring system) - but the debate itself can never and will never be put to rest as long as wrestlers continue to suit up and entertain.
So whether it is completely fake or just almost completely fake we may never really know - but it sure is entertaining - it has even made me pause once or twice during my channel surfing.
Archie: I am glad you enjoyed the thread. My intention from the get go was to provide a technical perspective on the “realness” of pro wrestling techniques. If you enjoyed and learnt something from it then it has been worthwhile. Thank you for you post. You made my day.
“Glitch … download” - Glitch’s final action. sniff
I know nothing about wrestling or martial arts. So, this is off-topic, and I apologize:
Glitch? In your years as a martial arts instructor have you ever taught or seen someone else teach a disabled person martial arts techniques? I’m specifically interested in breakfalling. My 12 year old daughter has Cerebral Palsy. She doesn’t use a wheelchair, but walks with either 1 or 2 forearm crutches. She has had some lessons in safe falling technique from phyisical therapists over the years, but her dad and I still worry about it a little. What do you think? Do you think a few MA lessons in breakfalling would help? Or would her disablity (she has fairly severe gross-motor and mild to moderate fine-motor problems) make it not worth messing with?
first off, one of my close friends is a **huge** WWF fan (he says the wrestler on star trek is "the rock", btw), and he readily admits that the moves used in wrestling are "fake" in that they are not actual martial arts moves designed to seriously injure anyone. however, you would have a very tough time convincing him (or me, from the few matches i've seen) that the "sport" is "fake." it might be decided before hand who will win the match, but the wrestlers are certainly giving it their all; which, in my eyes, makes it quite "real."
DSYoungEsq -
what do you mean by shape? i’m a fairly enthusiastic soccer fan, and there’s no way in hell you can tell me that any soccer player at any level runs full out for 90 minutes. certainly, wrestlers take breaks as well during a match (in holds), but they’re wrestling full out for up to fifteen minutes (i’ve heard of, but not myself seen, longer matches). if you measure “shape” by pure endurance, wouldn’t marathon runners win? but marathon runners would get crushed in pretty much any other measure of fitness by, say, a basketball player. i think you’re still giving professional wrestlers short shrift, even though you do recognize their athleticism.
(btw, when i post this, you have 666 posts to your name. sell anything to satan recently? :))
finally, for anyone interested, i'd recommend (sp? that just looks wrong) Foley's book "Have a Nice Day." i've only flipped through it, but it seems well written, and has some riveting sections of what's happened to him - an ear ripped off, 3rd degree burns from a C4 explosion, tacks driven into him, all in the ring. he also describes the long, hard training he put into making it "big."
That’s a real tough call to make. It would help immensely if I could see your daughter.
I guess the rule of thumb I might apply would be, if she can do a roll she can learn to breakfall, since the roll is the first most basic breakfall.
As to whether it is worthwhile, absolutely.
See a local instructor (jujutsu/jujitsu or judo). He will be able to make a better judgement call then I can.
I do know that people with all sorts of handicaps have learnt martial arts. In fact, where I learnt karate there were two brothers who were handicapped, although I don’t know how. They had great spirit and never missed a single class. When they first showed up they couldn’t get up off the floor without help. Years later I saw a tremendous difference in them. They were much more physically able, most notably they could go from lying down on the floor to standing completely on their own, although perhaps a bit slower than the rest of us. I am not saying this will happen with your daughter. I wish I could say it would, I wish I could say it is a cure, but I do think pursuing the martial arts offers something from everybody.
Best of luck. If you have any other questions feel free to mail me, or feel free to post a message for me. I check most of the boards so if my name is in the subject I’ll see it.
Ellis: << it might be decided before hand who will win the match, but the wrestlers are certainly giving it their all; which, in my eyes, makes it quite “real.” >>
OK, suppose you’re in the theater watching a play, in which two of the actors get into a fight. The actors are certainly “giving it their all” and it looks very realistic and very dramatic; does that make it “real”?
Or how about a movie, with a long fight scene, broken furniture, the works. The actors again are “giving it their all”; it looks very realistic; does that make it “real”?
No one is saying that it’s not a skill and an art. It take training and practice. It can LOOK real. But it’s different from boxing, say.
And just because it’s “fake”, like movies or theatre, doesn’t mean it can’t be very entertaining.
Thanks for the input, Glitch. I’ll talk to Dori about it, and make some calls about finding a martial arts instructor to evaluate her. Thanks again for taking the time to respond!
if you’d read carefully, you might have noticed that i agree with you that wrestling moves are “fake” in the same manner that a fight in a movie or a play is. the point i was (and, apparently, am still) trying to make is that wrestling is a “real,” as in “legitimate” activity.
i feel that the differences in opinion expressed in this thread revolve around the definition of “real.” maybe some of the other posters believe that wrestling is “real” in the manner of boxing or martial arts. i don’t. what i do believe is that it is “real” in that there is no reason to detract anything from professional wrestling because it has a predetermined outcome and the moves aren’t as painful as they are made to look.
bottom line, it’s just as “real” as anything else out there; these athletes are participating in a “real” activity (i hesitate to call it sport, though i do consider them athletes, just as i don’t consider synchronized swimming a “sport;” but that’s another thread :)), just one that follows rules that are different from ones that you are used to.
The glory of the language is that you can use the term “real” however you choose, just as Humpty Dumpty used the term “glory.”
If you agree that it’s “real” in the same sense that theatre or tv or movie fights are “real”, then I guess we agree… “real” as opposed to “animated Disney stuff” or “psychotic imaginings.”
“The question is,” asked Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things?”
Ellis, you’re arguing over the definition of “real”? Let’s go back to the original question, the one for the article.
See, the original question was not “Is wrestling a valid way of making a living?” or “Is wrestling a valid form of entertainment?” It was “Is it a valid competition?” No, it’s a show.
If you want to discuss the validity of predetermined outcomes and choreographed shows as forms of entertainment, then post a thread in GQ about theater and movies and other forms of entertainment that have “competitions” in them. Or talk about boxing and how it’s rigged. If you want to discuss the validity of wrestling as a way of life, a career, or a hobby, then do so. But don’t distort the discussion about whether wrestling is an actual competion or an exhibition by reinterpreting the definition of the word real.
i think the thread had gotten off the original question raised in the mailbag article well before i joined the discussion. and i interpreted the argument which was occurring in this thread as revolving around different interpretations of the word “real.”
now, if you’d claimed that the argument occurring could be cleared up in a different manner, you’d have been fine. however, by claiming that i’ve lead the thread off track from it’s original discussion of whether wrestling is choreographed or not, a discussion long since gone, you’ve made a blatant error. maybe if you’d read the passage you quoted me on, you would have realized this, and thus avoided looking like a fool.
CKDextHavn -
i’m having a tough time cutting through your sarcasm, but i think that we do agree. professional wrestling is not “real” in that it is pre-determined and the athletes are not attempting to seriously harm each other. it is “real” in that it is legitimate in and of itself as entertainment, and should not be belittled as “fake” in the manner that the Great Oz could be. now, if you and i have a different interpretation of the “realness” of wrestling, so be it, but no need to insult me on it; it’s not exactly a question with a right and a wrong answer.
I'm sorry, although I'm a Christian, I'm not a fundamentalist, I entirely accept the findings of modern science, and I try not to be a nuisance.
But that juxtaposition is just too silly not to be remarked.
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John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays."
-- Charles Williams
Sigh How did this become a pissing contest between us? I’m sorry if my tone was a bit hostile. I guess I did get a bit testy. Sorry.
I concede you added a different view to the whole thread, the concept of whether it is a legitimate activity, a valid career/hobby/form of entertainment.
Perhaps that is the view of blackwrangler98. If so, he did a lousy job making the distinction you did.
I guess I should have stated my comment differently, and not pointed it at you. The essence of my point is that the original question was to whether pro-wrestling is an actual competition or not (i.e. real competition), and the answer is No. That does not mean it is not dangerous, difficult, challenging, or entertaining. Also, it says nothing to whether it is a “valid” career or form of entertainment.
I don’t know the distinction you are making between “not real” and “fake”.
right you are. i over-reacted, and i apologize. i don’t dispute your point in reference to the original mailbag question. however, i don’t feel that i’m trying to make a distinction between “not real” and “fake.” the distinction i’m trying to make is that of what yardstick you’re using to measure wrestling’s “realness.” if you use martial arts, it’s fake. but if you use sports entertainment, i believe that it’s real. it may not be the olympics, but i think it’s only a little more far-fetched than some other sports, such as rythmic gymnastics (which, ironically enough, i remember seeing during olympic coverage).
but seeing as this is all getting a little silly, and devolving into semantics, of which you and i apparently have a different view, let’s just call it quits and part amicably.
I guess I just don’t agree. Rhythmic gymnastics may be very esoteric, with vague rules the audience does not understand, but it is an artistic form and there is judging taking place with the actual awarding of points, etc. I suppose we could get into discussions of whether the olympic judges are block-voting, etc, but the premise of the olympics is that it is an actual competition. Whereas the premise of pro-wrestling is that it is an exhibition, a show, a scripted event. That’s a fundamental distinction to me and the source of the question on “realness”.
[quote]
but seeing as this is all getting a little silly, and devolving into semantics, of which you and i apparently have a different view, let’s just call it quits and part amicably. [/quote
You’ve hit on a great idea. Pro wrestling could be run just as it is today, but be judged by gymnastic-style judging. The ‘winner’ wouldn’t matter, but they’d get points based on how well the ‘won’ or ‘lost.’ It’s clear that wrestling has its own integrity, and judges could evaluate based on who best exemplified the activity. Then it would become a competition in the true sense of the word.
