Ahem… I was clarifying that the comparison was between Obama and Chamberlain, and not between ISIS and Hitler. Of course, you’re free to create any strawmen you wish.
For the record, the various Arab Springs, or whatever you chose to call them, are civil wars. However, other countries in the region are involved in civil wars that are not their own.
Personally, I see no reason for the U.S. to become enmeshed in Middle East civil wars.
[QUOTE=doorhinge]
Personally, I see no reason for the U.S. to become enmeshed in Middle East civil wars.
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Well, there is all that oil stuff…
The oil will still be there after the extremists have murdered most of the population. The fanatical murderers can then chose whether to sell it, or not. Maybe Putin will make them a deal they can’t refuse?
Even after Iran begins resorting to atomic warfare, the oil could still be extracted if the workers worn the proper protective clothing.
So, your idea is that the industrialized world with inelastic demand for oil can just wait around until the terrorists kill everyone and then start selling oil again? I’m no expert, but there seems to be some flaws in your idea here.
Bottom line is there are reasons that the US is and has to be involved…and why even our Euro buddies are involved in this mess at a certain level. Saying you can’t think of any is either silly or disingenuous.
Part of their job - what they have accepted campaign donations to do - is to find work for the US military; to justify and validate. How on earth do you justify the absurd size if it’s not doing anything … after pulling out of Iraq and now Afghanistan it literally has to act.
Because there are just so many reasons to bring up Neville Chamberlain. :rolleyes:
Holy shit! We agree on something. 
NEVILLE Chamberlain? I thought we were talking about Wilton Norman Chamberlain?!?!?!?
May 28th, 2015 - Mark it on your calendar, and buy a round for the house.
There are many reasons why peace should break out in the Middle East. However, they would all be based on Muslims not killing Muslims, Arabs not killing Arabs, Muslims not killing Jews, Muslims not killing Christians, etc., and that just ain’t gonna happen. Too much long-festering hatred exists.
Unless you can think of a way for them to put aside thousands of years of warfare, and revenge, I no longer see any possible way for them all to get along and stop killing each other.
Another option is for those who want to kill each other should get it over and done with. Maybe the survivors will listen to reason?
If ISIS continues to expand and the United States has to resort to sending troops into the region to battle them, will all the pollyannaish liberals on this board acknowledge that the correct action was to confront ISIS at the outset with dominating force?
There lies something in between Bush’s Iraq and 1940’s Berlin. Be smart once in a while and maybe our military could actually do some good for humanity. Like it did when Chamberlain waffled.
To me, this sounds like simplistic thinking in regard to a very complex issue. Just because we eventually end up in a quagmire doesn’t mean we should have been in a hurry to get there.
Thanks for that, I just watched it. Frontline does a great job with the whole Information thing, and I’m glad I watched it.
Here’s a link to it: Obama at War | FRONTLINE
edit: (Heh- shoulda read the last page before providing the link.)
Every war is WWII, every bad guy is Hitler, all talks of appeasement and diplomacy are reflexively met with cries of “Chamberlain” and “Munich.” So go the American hawks. Of course, they can’t actually say what Chamberlain did wrong, precisely, given the geopolitical state of Britain in the late '30s. The idea of appeasement and surrender being the mark of a foolish coward is more important.
I found it pretty bizarre.
The US has always been impotent in Syria. It totally goes against US mentality and culture to accept that so this whole documentary tried to show otherwise. In contrast, Putin did a deal in 5 days.
Made me laugh out load when McCain said ‘bomb them’ and the follow up question was ‘but what happens when Assad falls?’ ‘erm, dunno’. You get edited out for that man-in-the-pub nonsense.
UK Prime Minister Cameron didn’t let Parliament decide by accident, he wanted to be able to say ‘sorry, would like to help and this vote is totally unexpected but we can’t …’.
The US has no place in this conflict. No role. Bombing gets you fuck all.
At times the rebels almost reminded me of the bogus South Vietnam regime. The ‘spokesman’ had all the standard rehearsed lines.
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Neville Chamberlain’s policy of appeasement was a misguided effort to allow Hitler to take little pieces of Europe in the hope that Hitler would eventually be satisfied, and not attempt to take large pieces, or all, of Europe. Neville guessed wrong.
Chamberlain conceded the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia to Germany. Chamberlain had no such authority. He didn’t represent Czechoslovakia. He promised Hitler that G.B. wouldn’t fight for Czechoslovakia’s freedom.
Hitler responded by making a non-aggression pact with Stalin, the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and then invaded Poland. (Stalin invaded Poland 17 days later but G.B. and France didn’t bother to declare war on Russia???).
Prior to this, Chamberlain had opened direct talks with Italy, after Italy had invaded and conquered Ethiopia. Fuck them Ethiopians, what did they ever do for Chamberlain’s Britain?
Austrians received the same appeasement. Hitler wants Austria, so let him have it. Chamberlain did sent Hitler a strongly worded letter condemning this action.
Hitler had no reason to respect Chamberlain, or Chamberlain’s position. Hitler said, “Jump” and Chamberlain replied, “How high”.
Flesh this out for us, Stringbean. tell us exactly what happens after this “correct action”, this “dominating force” we use when we confront ISIS leaves thousands of dead bodies, many of them collateral civilians, and of course many of our own troops to come home in body bags. Tell us what happens then…elaborate…show your work.
Will they finally accept us? The Middle East is not Poland or Hungary or Czechoslovakia of 1938. The people we’d be heroically saving can’t stand our way of life. They’re in no way going to look at us as an authority to respect.
Please tell us what happens in your new humanity that we’ve just saved. Come on.
You could be right. Maybe we just haven’t bombed them enough to make them like us. And maybe if we show the Iraqis that we care about their country more than they do by bombing some more, they will begin to care about their country, too.
Oh, OK. My bad.
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ISIS has murdered tens of thousands in the towns and areas they have conquered. And they will continue to do so. What will their final total be? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Are they trying to best Stalin’s record?
The Middle East won’t accept Middle Eastern rule, let alone something devised by outsiders. The bloodshed will continue.
Obama isn’t going to do anything worthwhile. Congress isn’t going to do anything worthwhile. The U.S. military isn’t allowed to anything worthwhile. The Ramadi defenders out-gunned, and out-manned, the blood-thirsty ISIS attackers but the Ramadi defenders threw down their weapons, and ran. They didn’t even take the time to spike the big guns they abandoned.
I suspect that Bagdad will fall and ISIS will continue to murder hundreds of thousands more. SSDD.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
You could be right. Maybe we just haven’t bombed them enough to make them like us. And maybe if we show the Iraqis that we care about their country more than they do by bombing some more, they will begin to care about their country, too.
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Well, I could be right (there is a first time for everything after all), but this has little to do with anything I’m saying. Bomb them to like us? Where did THAT come from? BTW, in case you are not up on current events, the Iraqis (well, Iraqi government and even some of the Shia tribal and militia leaders) ASKED us for air support and are bitching, quite loudly that we aren’t doing enough.
Then what’s with the RW, Fox news drumbeat of “Obama’s not doing enough!” That he’s some waffling panty-waist who’s too timid to react and get the job done. What do you say to these calls of MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE!! and they’re constantly saying it can’t be won without troops on the ground, yet they stop short before saying we should actually PUT troops on the ground.
Just political horseshit as usual?
Doesn’t matter. If they come home, it is going to be onesie-twosie kinds of things. That is the job of the police, or the equivalents of the FBI/CIA/Homeland Security in various countries. No need for the Marines to go anywhere this time (as hugely profitable as that would be for certain interests). We can bomb this one to death, it isn’t Hitler Himself yanno.