I am truely sorry for the hassels you recieved as a child. I know how cruel children can be. And yes, I agree that many times (most times) history is presented in a terribly shallow and one sided mannor. It seem that these days it is better than it was, especially once kids reach Middle and High School.
I know the truth in this statement. Many of those who choose to become Americans know more about American history than most natural-born. I think many immigents are much more aware of the value and meaning as well
Hear, Hear. I join brassballs in welcoming you to the US and citizenship! I think we are in agreement on the importance we place on our pledge to our country and are not simple enough to think it is the cloth to which we pledge our a loyalty.
brassballs, Nicodemus2004, welcome to the United States yourselves. I don’t know about you two, but I’ve been a citizen for nearly 20 years and while I may still be proud, I’m hardly a new American. Honestly, your tone sounded slightly patronizing.
You two missed my point entirely. I do not pledge allegiance to the flag. I pledge my allegiance to the United States herself, faults and all. I also strongly object to the silent shunning or impugning the patriotism of those who aren’t comfortable reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or wonder what their intent is. As I said, what I objected to in grade school was I felt like I was pledging my allegiance to the flag only, not to the country and it did strike me as strange. I’m leery of extravagant displays of patriotism. I’m also aware that there are people who would question my loyalty to this country because I don’t think the Pledge of Allegiance is a wonderful thing. I’m actually agreeing with mswas, rather than you two. Pledging my allegiance to a piece of cloth does strike me as rather strange.
I just wanted to touch on this in particular. You see, my education is entirely American as is my brothers’. Our school educations were neither better nor worse than any other child’s in our small towns. In my case, I may have known less about history than many Americans because I decided history as taught was a bunch of bunk and propoganda which left me with a distaste for the subject. It wasn’t until years later when I fell in love with a history buff that my opinion of it started to change. What you wrote is a platitude and not one I care for. I’m no one’s ideal of a noble, hard-working immigrant; I’m just a middle-aged curmudgeon-in-the-making who’s just trying to make a living while straddling two cultures. When addressing me as an individual, put the broad brush down and walk away. That particular stereotype doesn’t fit.
Were this a contest, I’d compare horrible early life experiences with anyone and have high odds of placing in the top five. So, when I see someone attempting to use that trite old spiel as a mitigating factor in what, to my eyes seems a fairly outlandish view of America, I have to raise the BS flag (not made out of cloth, btw, and not requiring any sort of pledge at all).
I’ve spent my entire adult life, 24 years to date, in defense of that country called America. Seventeen of those 24 years have been spent outside the United States in some very inhospitable places (and some nice ones). I’ve been shot at, I’ve been spit on, and I’ve watched friends die. I’m not going to demean the sacrifices those young men and women made by claiming here that they died so that people like MSWAS can enjoy the freedom to come on boards like this and declare their disdain for America (and the piece of cloth that represents it). I won’t do it, because I don’t believe it. Young men and women don’t give up their lives for such nebulous ideals…not when the bullets are flying and fear is high. They do it for much more immediate reasons; they do it for the guy or gal right next to them. They do it for their friends.
But, there was a time, in the quiet cool of some recruitment station in the middle of anywhere America—before they signed their names on dotted lines, that many of them did consider such ideals. While America is far from perfect today and while there are many things in her past that all Americans should feel shame for, they had the clarity of thought to understand that America had given them and their families everything they had and she deserved something in return. They knew that America represented an ideal that is found no one else in the world and that ideal is under attack both at home and abroad. And they knew that there are a lot people in America who would laugh at them, think them fools, and then go on about their business of importing 200kgs of heroin, whilst enjoying freedoms they themselves are incapable of ever defending. In short, they would have considered the fact that not everyone in America is deserving of their service nor of their potential sacrifices. But they knew that someone had to do it because America, in general, was worth it.
All of that is a long way to get around to this. When service men and women are out in the far inhospitable areas of the world, tired, scared, and under fire, sometimes the ONLY thing they have to remind them of why they are where they are is that piece of cloth we call a flag. Its not some nebulous ideal. Not then. It’s a rock solid symbol of whatever it is about America that made them join up and sign their name on that dotted line. Its hope and it’s a promise that they aren’t alone.
And for those that feel “weird” that you would be asked to pledge allegiance to that Flag in the comfort of some school or baseball stadium, take a moment to think about what it means to those who are out risking their lives for America…for you. And if after that, you still feel weird. Well, then to hell with you. You aren’t the ones we’re dying for anyway.
I’m going to talk about the pledge first, since that’s what the OP was about.
The thing is, as a kid, you’re compelled to do a lot of things. Some of them are okay, some of them are bad. The Pledge is just one of these many things, and it isn’t necessarily either good or bad. Some teachers are assholes, true, but a more fundamental issue is that you were just a kid. Hey, it sucks, but I dunno what you expect people to do about it. Give children all the same rights as adults? Then we’d have to give them the same responsibilities, same punishments, same restrictions, etc. In an ideal world, kids would be born with all the knowledge and wisdom in the world, but since we don’t live in such a world, we have to pick and choose what to feed their little minds with while they’re growing up. And the Pledge is really no different than other brainwashing material: Textbooks, the Anthem, the Flag, TV, music, pop culture, fashion… it’s all the same.
I’m sorry about what you had to go through as a child, but that’s a worst-case scenario. A family member, child support services, the police… somebody should’ve intervened on your behalf, and unfortunately nobody did. You certainly have some rights as a child, and being free from shit like that is definitely one of them… if only somebody cared enough to actually enforce those rights for you instead of siding with your step-mother.
Err… marking territory is just one use for a flag. It’s not the ONLY use. People also use flags simply as logos for their countries, graphical versions of the names “USA” or “Brazil” or “China”. Do you think flags at soccer games or Olympic events are acts of war, too? Come on, I’m sure you understand that the flags are purely symbolic. What bugs you so much about them?
For one thing, I always thought of “under” as meaning “less than” God. I don’t see a problem with that, unless you think that we are equal to God and not any lower. I’m sorry to put it this way, but if your religious beliefs make you think that we really are parallel/equal to God, then just use your divine powers to remove the pledge from this world.
On the other hand, it does seem like our leaders believe we’re somehow “guided” by God, or that we’re a special nation chosen by him. I find this very disturbing, but the Pledge can hardly be blamed for this. Despite the bullshit about separating the church and state, God has a presence everywhere – in our courtrooms, in ours president’s views and speeches, in all the “God Bless America” slogans everywhere, and even printed on the thing we worship most, the almighty dollar. The Pledge is just one of the many symptoms and not the cause.
Right, but what’s your point? (Don’t mean that as an insult, just not sure what you’re trying to say)
Stop invoking the think-of-the-children argument. 5 year olds are compelled to do many things, and that by itself does not make the thing bad. It IS a simple pledge of allegiance to your country. You’re reading too much into it.
Ok, basically, I certainly see a “creepy” factor in the pledge, but I don’t think it’s really the terrible evil you portray it as. I think we’re just indoctrined the opposite way – made to think that any sign of loyalty to a country is inherently bad, when it doesn’t have to be.
Ok, I’m done with the pledge. The rest is about the other stuff:
Fine, but how do you define “as long as it does not hurt other people”? What constitutes “hurting”? Physical injuries, physical discomfort, emotional trauma, minor insults, upsetting their sensibilities… what? Smoking pot and walking around naked might seem fine to you (and to me, too), but not to other people. What about things like public fucking, bestiality, corpse eating, mass suicides, volunteer human sacrifices… they don’t necessarily hurt anyone, but many people find them disturbing. Where and how would you draw the line, or would you at all?
Yeah, so what? Culture spreads. It’s only natural. It used to be Rome, yesterday it was Britain, today it’s America. Tomorrow it may be any other country.
If only every ideal could be so easily attained. Nonetheless, we’ve tried, and we are still trying. Just because we’re not there yet doesn’t mean we’ll never be, and it doesn’t mean that we’ve completely failed.
So this is why you have a problem with the Pledge of Allegiance? It’s not just the pledge or the flag, it’s the entire concept of a “country” that you’re against? Fine. A happily united world is a lofty dream, but one that we seem to be very far away from attaining. When we get there, I’ll happily drop the American flag for one shared by the entire human race.
But is that even possible? Unless everybody thinks exactly the same way, there are always going to be different groups separated by differing beliefs. Countries are just a natural extension of that phenomenon.
On the other hand, even in the current multi-national world, you can still hold allegiances to different entities – you just have to prioritize them. I am loyal to myself, to those I love, to those I care about, to my state, to my country, and – yes – to the human race as a whole. There is no inherent problem with that unless they start conflicting, in which case I just have to prioritize and decide which one to support in that particular instance. Everybody does this, conciously or not. You still have to do this even if there are no nations. For example, if another man tries to kill your wife, do you just stand there and let him do it because of your allegiance to the human race? Or, if the newly united human race decides that 30% of the population, you included, have to die in order for the rest to survive, would you happily abide by their decision?
Siege, if you go back and read my post, you will most certainly find that I was in no way patronizing you, and I am almost positive that Nicodemus2004 wasn’t either. We were simply congradulating you on becoming a citizen of this country. I made no inference as to how long you had been here or anything of the sort, I was simply being polite. Additionally, I stated that we were in agreement in theory because you love this country (by your own admission) and you stated that you pledge to the country rather than the flag. This is something that I have no problem with. If you choose to think pledging to the flag is rediculous and you pledge your allegience to the nation instead, smashing! As long as you are pledging your allegience then we ARE in fact in agreement. The flag, as I stated several times if you would have bothered to closely read all the posts in this thread, is a mere symbol of the nation and is no more powerful on its own than a bedsheet. Without the United States, the flag would have no power at all, but because it is representative of one of, if not the, greatest nations in recorded history, the flag does in fact have a certain amount of stature the world over. Your beliefs are, if I had to venture a guess, closer to Nicodemus’ and mine than the OP, at least on this issue. Also, had you read all of the OP’s posts in this thread entirely, you would have gathered that he does not pledge to the flag, the government, or the country for that matter, so who’s beliefs do yours more closely mirror?
**Badura[b/] To you, all I would like to say is thank-you for your sacrifice and that of your family members. I for one appreciate everything our servicemen and women do to the utmost. I can only imagine how it must feel to have watched friends perish, and I’m sure that imagined scene does not even begin to tell the whole story. You sir, are a hero.
Holy Crap Siege! Where did that come from. I was not painting with any kind of brush or patronizing anyone. I have heard how difficult the test for citizenship can be and how much American history is required from the applicants. That is what I meant by many applicants knowing more Amer. History than some natives. I got the impression, seemingly wrong, that the citizenship was a rather new accomplishment, not the being-a-part-of-this-country thing.
Honestly, I am baffled by your responce and apparent anger. Anything I said to you was sincerly a friendly response. I agree with brassballs opinion and I agree that, at least I feel, we are on the same page here. I have said, like you, that it isn’t about the piece of cloth, it is only a symbol.
Again, anything said to you was meant to be supportive and friendly. If it came across in any other way, I am sincerly sorry.
And brassballs, thanks for the support in my absence. You were right on all counts. Thanks.
No problem Nicodemus2004. I just figured you didn’t mean any harm either, so cast your lot in with mine. You didn’t seem like the smarmy, talk out of the side of your mouth kind of person, you were being portrayed as. Not to say this thread isn’t full of em’.
On a side note: I wish this thread would have stayed on topic, I was really looking forward to debating this with the OP. Of course, it is terribly hard to debate when ones questions go unanswered. Oh well, maybe I will see you around in another thread Nicodemus, we “crazies” have to stick together.
You’ve chosen an occupation as soldier. If that’s what you want for yourself, fine. It doesn’t give you any special insight into whether saying the pledge in school is a good idea.
And how do you determine who is "deserving of their service’? Just those that agree with you politically?
Nobody is risking their lives for me. They’re dying for a mistake. Whether Iraq has a democratic government or despotism isn’t going to make me any more safe or unsafe. So you only are risking your lives for people that you agree with? If so, how is that fighting for freedom?
Exactly. He chose it of his own free will, and for that he should be commended. Regardless of what you think or feel about the governmenr or country, he deserves your respect.
Are you a citizen of the US, Bob? If so, then every serviceperson that has given their life in active or inactive duty has in fact done so for you, and for me, and everyone else in this country. It really makes no difference whether or not you agree or disagree with the premise under which we go to war. The fact is that we are there, and those young men and women that have lost their lives didn’t die in vain.
On a side note BobLibBem, are you one of those that are against the war in Iraq, and pissing and moaning about the WMD issue, but claiming that North Korea is the real problem? I’m just curious.
Before you assume that I am a neocon an pro war in Iraq, I am neither. I am the grandson of a decorated veteran and it makes me see red when people don’t show the military the respect they deserve.
A large majority of soldiers belive in what they are doing over in Iraq. If they belive that what they are doing is noble, then their deaths are not in vain. And IMO if you call their deaths in vain whilst they believe it to be for a reason, it is disrespctful of their memory.
Now that this thread has been hi-jacked to shyte and back, lets get it back on topic.
Germany invading Poland is a different situation IMO. Anything done by Adolf Hitler was basically unjustified, but he was using forced sevicemen for the most part. And those that weren’t forced had been indoctrinated since youth to be loyal to the Hitler. Do you not think that these men, no matter how dispicable their actions, believed that they were acting appropriately?
I’m quite sure that many German soldiers believed they were acting appropriately; nobly, even. Some, I’m sure, fell upon grenades to save their comrades-in-arms.
Were their deaths in vain?
Please do not accuse me of equating Germany’s invasion of Poland with the US invasion of Iraq. I’m only pointing out that the fact that our sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, are bravely fighting this war does not, in itself, justify it.
This discussion is not a hijack, as you suggest. The pledge of allegiance is a promise to shut up and do what you’re told. And that’s not always the right thing.