Israel invades Gaza Strip?!

Great Debates
261

The point was there is a new element: new representative governments, even under the control of extremists, I would not assume automatically that they are a monolith and deserve the same fate as the ones that foolishly attack Israel.

I’m not under any illusions, but in an election year, the White House would insist (Not now, but recklessly later) to keep the pretense at the expense of pressuring Israel.

Their attack was directed to a military target, I am once again not approving of it, but pointing out that that plays into the world’s opinion.

He who battles monsters must beware, lest a monster he become. - Nietze

It is a given, even for me, that the terrorists are monsters, but Israel is playing right now into their hands.

And then even I would have demanded Bush to send troops to support Israel, don’t you see what Israel missed here? BTW I am not talking about the past governments of Lebanon, even under a cloud of suspicion, one needed to give them some time to deal with their terrorists (I’m not under any illusions, I am only mentioning the opportunity that was missed on not making them wholly responsible for this mess to the eyes of the world)

Right now I’m not much worried about actions that are justified, only that many in Israel are not realising a justified action can turn quickly into unjustified depending on the actions on the field. (what would happen if in reality the governments had no control on the recent actions of the terrorists?)

:dubious: How much power has Hezbollah with only one minister? All the other members of the parliament condemned the action of Hezbollah. Realizing that In 2005 The anti-Syrian opposition captured control of Lebanon’s parliament makes your point here even more dubious.

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I don’t want to get in the middle of this shoving match, or hijack the debate, but even Israel’s direct attack on the USS Liberty during the 1967 war didn’t disrupt American support for Israel, so I don’t think a few “surgical” attacks on Lebanese and Palestinian “agitators” will ruffle any US feathers.
[/hijack]

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Which attacks do you mean? the Qassams falling in Sderot and Ashkelon? Or do you mean the Katyushas which fell, already yesterday morning before Israel crossed the border into Lbeanon, on Israeli towns in the North? :confused:

You know that bridge we were talking about? It’s really a good price. You should buy it now, before somebody else beats you to it… :wink:

I ask in all seriousness – Cite? I know exactly the opposite – that both the Lebanese Parliament and Armed Forces have stood behind Hezbollah in this case. But I accept that I may have missed something in trying to follow the news.

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I’ll start with this one:

How much power do they have? Enough for terrorist training camps, weapons, financing, safe harbor, etc… Does it matter if only one minister wears their hat if the entire country dances to their tune? Lebanon’s recent refusal to deny Hezbollah funding, claiming that they weren’t terrorists, surely wasn’t the work of a lone official, was it?

How much power do they have? Should we look at the actual support they’re getting, or the rhetoric the government is giving us?

And, a cite as to them having only one representative or backer in Parliment?
We’ve got a cite from CNN in this thread saying that Hezbollah holds “posts” in the Lebanese government. Of course, though, that is academic to a degree as pointed out above. It’d be nice to get at the truth of the matter…

Well, it doesn’t matter if they’re monolithic or not. If the US launched a war, our entire country would be fair game for reprisals, and not just Republicans.

Eh. The world’s opinion has been so solidly anti-Israel in the past that I’m sure most Sabras couldn’t care less.

Perhaps. You and I evidently differ on the timeframe for a response to an armed attack. Although as Israel has not been targeting civilians, it’s hard to truly say that they’re becoming the monsters that they’re fighting.

I don’t agree it missed anything. The reaction would be exactly the same as the world’s reaction to Syria playing dumb. Exemplified, in miniature, by the OP’s agenda in this thread, actually.

How much time is reasonable to stop funding Hezbollah, stop giving them weapons, close down the terrorist training camps? After enough time, it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that the government’s lack of action is just what it seems.

Well, if they had no control, which they do in fact have, but if they didn’t, then Israel would be within its rights to invade a lawless region which was spawning terrorists.

But it’s not like Lebanon has changed its stripes to any great degree.

From the Yahoo cite given earlier:

From the CNN cite:

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http://beirutspring.blogspot.com/2005/06/new-parliament.html

72 members anti-Syrian.

21 members independent or pro-Syrian

35 Pro Syrian-Amal (14 of then Hezbollah)

I’m not clear on the minister positions but some sources now mention that there are actually 2 Hezbollah ministers and many in parliament do see them as troublemakers.

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:rolleyes: So saying “[they] did not condone” is now a form of condemnation? :rolleyes: Seriously, I guess it’s a little bit better than outright support for Hizballah, but on the whole it’s really pretty much just another facet of the Lebanese government’s “Three Monkeys” act.

And thanks for ignoring my questions about your assertion how all the attacks were on military targets… remember this bit?

talk about honest debating!

267

Link has verification of the Blog graphic.

Since the latest I remember from Lebanon was most of the government asking Syria to get out, I really do wonder were you get this “fair” game idea.

And you are working towards making a fence sitter like me lose respect. You may not care, but I still care when government (or is it the media in Israel?) is not telling me the whole truth when war is happening.

They call the strikes surgical, collateral dammage still shows.

I thought we were talking about Lebanon now.

Never assign to malice what incompetence can explain.

I was going to say Yes. Until I checked the current targets.

[QUOTE=United States Department of State
Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism]
Because the Government of Lebanon does not exercise
effective control over areas in the south and inside the Palestinian refugee camps, terrorists
can operate relatively freely in those areas.
[/QUOTE]

That is not “just the south” when you look at the map.

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I said “Their attack” referring to the one that killed the soldiers, saying “attacks” and implying that I ignored those is dishonest.

Posted early:

And I also mentioned that guys who perform terror moves like this deserve to be killed.

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So, you’re referring just to the latest eruption on the lebanese front? And of that, you prefer to focus only on the part of the attack that targeted soldiers and dismiss the (simultaneous) rocket attacks on civilians as a “mere” diversonary ploy? OK, whatever… Kind of looks like you’re missing the main issue here, as far as we Israelis are concerned, just as so many people seem to be missing the point that the situation in Gaza was finally triggered by the kidnapping of Shalit, but had been smoldering for months before due to hundreds of Qassam rockets fired from the PA-controlled territory into Israel proper, since the disengagement last year.
But hey, don’t let a little misunderstanding of the basic facts on the ground stop you…

270

On this item I see you are right, the article I read does mention condemnation later (to Israel, big surprise ( :rolleyes: to the Lebanese) ) and I got confused, but to the actions of Israel.

Still, other reports do mention that Hezballah has a parliament position because it was supposed to be the civil wing of Hezballah, not the military part, IIRC A chance was missed recently to keep them out when parliament decided to investigate some connections Hezballah had with some of the recent high profile killings in Lebanon, Hezballah reportedly stepped down in protest, but there was some diplomatic moves to keep them in government. Even I see that was a mistake, but it goes towards showing that the idea that all of Lebanon is “fair game” to be a mistake in my opinion.

271

:rolleyes:

It does not, are you saying Israel never shot back when the terrorists shot rockets from the North? If you are honest, you will realize that I did not complain on Israel’s attacking Gaza, where most of the rocket attacks came since disengagement.

272

I’m complaining about this:

Unconditional. “It was directed to a military target.” Well, as you yourself admitted later, “it” wasn’t exactly directed only at a military target. But hey, attacking civilians as a “diversionary tactic” is OK if you’re fighting against Israel. But if you are Israel, then hitting civilians while targetting legitimate military targets, that have just attacked you on your sovereign territory, and are purposely hiding among said civilians suddenly becomes the epitome of inhumanity. No, no double standard at work here; nothing to see; move along…

Not to mention – even if the target had been military, last I checked, attacking a sovereign nation’s military force, on it’s own territory, out of the blue with no provocation [and the Lebanese front was completely quiet until now] is pretty much the definition of Casus belli

273

Furious tap dancing time from you, I already think Palestine got their just deserts and Israel needed to defend itself, hundreds of attacks and the Palestinians showed to be incompetent and complicit. It just seems you are so irate that you still are not noticing that I agree with most of the actions of Israel there.

Lebanon’s attact came from an area not under the control of the Lebanese government, it is dubiuous that the government in Lebanon ordered the attack, Even so, I would be willing to accept a clean up of the south of Lebanon, but that is not what I see Israel doing, I have to call the lack of focus a mistake, even if I consider myself on the whole a friend of Israel.

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Possibly. Make that Probably. Maybe it’s time to step back from the keyboard a bit.

Eh, you still interested in that bridge? :slight_smile: Look, Hizballah is in the freaking government. Do you really, honestly think that the big muck-mucks in Lebanon didn’t know something was brewing? OK, I guess you really do. Sorry, but I just don’t agree.

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Wrongo again, I do suspect the bastards of Hizballah knew something, but ignoring that a good chuck of parliament (The majority really) is against Syria and had Zidanne like headbutts against Hizbalah in Parliament I still don’t swallow the idea all of Lebanon deserves what is happening.

276

Besides, I based the assertion that the government of Lebanon has little or no control of the south on what the US intelligence report said.

Although I could accept the point that the sorry recent examples of American intelligence could mean that the US “owned” all the destroyed bridges, if you catch my drift. :slight_smile:

277

Gigo, you’d have a point if Lebanon stated that the south of its country was not under its sovereign rule. If that was the case - if Beirut ws claiming that South Lebanon was not a part of Lebanon - then maybe we wouldn’t have the right to attack them. However, they are saying no such thing. The attacks came from territory they claim is their property, and as such they are responsible for whatever happens, even if they did not approve of it.

Here’s an analogy: say that the McDonalds Corporation gave one of its trucks to a known alcholic and drug abuser, with no licence and a history of multiple vehicular homicides, whi then went out and ran over a kindergarten class. Would the MacDonad Corp be open to civil and criminal charges? Even though they did not plan on killing anyone?

278

O…K. According to the YNet site (Hebrew language – but expect this to hit your favorite English language news source soon) , a Hizballah rocket has just hit Haifa.

Right or wrong, fair or not, justified or not, I think Hizballah has just stamped Lebanon’s ticket on a one-way trip back into the stone age.

And no, I’m not happy about this; just realistic. Hitting Haifa has to be met with such force that no Arab country will ever let it happen from their territory again.

279

Here it is in English

280

I think everyone is going to get effed in the A, eventually. Much sooner than later, as in anyone who says “not in my lifetime” will find a harsh reality waiting for them right around the corner.