Aro, I think the point that you are missing is that we are not discussing an isolated instance, but rather an ongoing process.
A process in which people on both sides get killed is called a war.
I am the last person to claim objectivity here, of course, but the way I see it, the Palestinians are out to kill any and/or all Israeli civilians just for being Israeli. As a nation, something has to be done about it. So we try to track down the ring-masters of the terrorist organizations and neutralize them.
Sometimes, we can pick them off the street - but you don’t hear about that.
Other times, we shoot at them. It’s a “Them or us” situation.
And yes, we (unfortunately far too often) hit innocent bystanders as well. It makes me cringe every time Palestinain civilans get it in one of our attacks, but - this being a war, in which shit happens - I honestly don’t see any other alternative that I can live with (pun intended)
A few final points:
If the PA were co-operating, and actually arrested terrorist leaders and did something real about stopping terrorism, these attacks would be unnecessary.
It’s not a question of retaliation. We hit the terrorist leaders when we find them. So there is not necessarily any corelation with terrorist bombings in Israel.
Colateral damage is so high because the terrorists surround themselves with civilians. We try to get at them with as few other people around as possible, but we do not avoid shooting at them until absolutely certain nobody else will get hit. We have to make sure they don’t kill us tomorrow!
During extended periods of relative calm, we still look for the ringleaders, but then we make darn sure that they are NOT amongst civilans when we hit - there were far fewer civilian casulaties on the Palestinian side during the 1997-2000 period, when the Oslo accords were already all but dead, but the suicide bombings of the current Intifadah had not yet started.
I know this has been long winded, and I realize that we are morally nowhere near the peak of the Everest either, but I hope you have seen things through our eyes a bit, and can understand why the attitude of most Israelis is that while we would like nobody getting killed on either side, we prefer, conditions being as they are, to see the deaths occur over there rather than here.
Main point to take away with you: We are not killing anyone for the fun of it. We are at war. We are shooting at people in order to avoid getting shot ourselves. We are acting in self-defence.
Call me cynical, but I imagine that had something to do with Arafat realizing that the balance of his rule could be measured in days if he didn’t reel in the jubilant Palestinians. Snopes speaks about this matter.
I’d like to point out No-one special that most Palestinian deaths have not come from so-called targetted killings out of the 2,155 Palestinians killed in the inifada before the end of September 2001, 123 of them were extrajudically assasinated with a further 84 bystanders being killed in the process.
Can you understand Palestinians who have the same point of view as you do?
neither side are taking the higher ground here. Israeli actions are encouraging recruitment for terrorist groups. Palestinian actions are encouraging current Israeli actions.
It is pointles to claim one side has the higher ground at the moment.
September 2001?
Considering the pace of events here, I would consider that to be ancient history.
Targeted killings only started in earnest during 2002.
And the number 2155 is for the period starting when?
Correction: some Palestinians are out to kill all Israelis. That is certainly not in question here. But there are many who wish only to live in peace. Just as you do.
Do they not also deserve that chance, as you do?
I can see you point on most other issues (whether I agree or not) you raise, and I do sympathise. I have spent my entire life in a region under threat of terrorism, although not remotely on the same scale, obviously. But I do believe that if the ring-leaders are known they should be arrested and detained rather than killed. The killing, whilst it may sedate a short-term longing for revenge, will ultimately lead to further escalation and bloodshed with no sign of possible resolution in sight. Any civilian death will only incense the population into a further level of hatred, and quite probably have a more profound effect on recruitment to terrorist organisations than any other single factor in the equation.
Here, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I think morality judgements should be based on actions, not thoughts. The Palestinians are targetting civilians, for the purpose of killing alone as an end. We are targetting terrorist leaders, for the purpose of neutralizing actual/potential threats on our own lives.
Sure, we’re talking shades of grey here, but I still think we are closer to what you would call “moral” than the Palestinains.
On preview: Aro - please re-read my response. I think I clearly indicated that preferred options would be:
a. PA Actually does something.
b. Failing that, we try to take ring-leader off the street without shooting anyone (and jail, rather than kill, capturee). If he resists, shoot him (small arms) and get out [happens too, although I doubt you hear much about that, either]
c. Failing both possibilities (PA not lifting a finger, target is where we cannot safely sent ground troops in after him) shoot at him from outside. Necessarily larger scale weapons, often unfortunate additional deaths.
Still sucks. But we will kill others if that’s what it takes to survive. Blunt, and not pretty. But that’s the way life is.
This is not a beauty contest. We’d like to be oh-so-nice-and-moral. But we prefer to stay alive.
Apologies; I did misread this line: “Sometimes, we can pick them off the street - but you don’t hear about that.” as this “Sometimes, we can pick them off in the street - but you don’t hear about that.”, thinking you were referring to sniping them, or some such. My fault.
My sole point though was that this sort of extra-judicial killings should never be an acceptable option, regardless - the only viable option should be the arrest and detention of the suspects. Anything other will only incense people more, laying a foundation for future terrorists and future acts of terrorism. It becomes counter-productive to what you wish to achieve - peace for all.
Personally, I do not regard even the killing of known perpetrators and terrorists in public places to be at all justified without trial, regardless of their crimes. They should stand trial, not be made martyrs of.
But that is a whole different thread again.
Israel hasn’t been targeting civilians. Unlike the Palestinians, who deliberately and specifically target civilians.
There is a moral difference between accidentally killing people who CHOOSE to live or hang out near terrorists and deliberately blowing up a Palestinian/Israeli jointly owned restaurant or a bus full of children. In both cases the loss of life is horrible, but in the first case the goal is NOT to kill the bystanders, where in the second case the goal IS SPECIFICALLY to kill bystanders.
The message to the Palestians should be a simple one. Don’t hang around Hezbollah. If you do, don’t be all surprised when you come home to find your house is now a crater. It’s not like you don’t see the fighters going into and out of the next door house with rifles all day. That oughta be a big damn clue.
The PLO is going to find it a difficult sell in America to portray themselves as victims. They seem to have better luck with this in europe anyways. They act like brutish thugs. Therefore, when other thugs take them out, there’s not a whole crapload of hand wringing over it in the states.
The PLO and the Muslim states could end 90% of this easily. all they have to do is unequivocably and unretractably sign a peace treaty with Israel that specifically and for all time acknowledges Israels right to exist. But they won’t do that? Why won’t they do that? (Kind of an uncomfortable question that no one seems to be asking Mr. Arafat, especially no one from the EU)
there ave been several instances when the targets of Israeli soldiers have been civilians
Choose to hang out? Many of the people killed were unconnected bystanders or children of the militants. As I said above only 10% of the deaths (including bystanders) of Palestinians in the Ocuppied territories since the start of the present initfada has been the result of these assasinations.
It’s also important to note that some of these attacks have amounted to little more than summary executions as the person could of clearly be arrested. In fact the particular assasination that helped to herald the death of the road map caused so much anger because the suspect was already in the custody of the Israeli Border Guard’s and was shot in the back whilst standing up against a wall.
The PLO in the current intifada certainly comeout alot better than the IDF as they have mainly not been inbvolved in the tit-for-tat killings and on there few miltary outings there tragets have been soldiers or occasionally settlers.
they have already offered this, indeed as part of the Oslo accord Arafat issued a letter recognizing the right of Israel to exist. As late as after the first Gulf War Israel still refused to even
negoiate with the Palestinians in principle.
To say that the Palestinian terrorists target civilians but the Israelis do not is pointless when the Israeli tactic is to use big weapons to go after a particular person in a populated area. The effect is the same. People who are doing the other side no harm get blown up on a regular basis. That those by-standers are going to get blown up is completely predictable. There is no substantive difference between walking into a cafe or a bus stop with 20 pounds of explosives strapped to your person and setting it off and firing air to ground missiles into a city street. It is murder either way. It is a policy of terror and intimidation either way.
The retaliation argument is equally pointless at this point. The cycle of tit for tat has gone on for so long that nobody can do an accounting.
Until and unless Israel gives up the occupation and pulls back the settlers and until the Palestinians accept that they are going to be excluded from the land they held as their own from the time of the Ottoman Empire nothing is going to change. Neither side can make that step, any more than we can restore the Powder River Country to the Buffalo Hunters or the Ohio Country to the Shawnee.
Sooner or later the thing will resolve with a Palestine that is either all Jewish or all Palestinian. Because might still makes right and because there is always a justification for national aggression, my money is on an all Jewish Palestine, as morally reprehensible as that might be. There is nobody with the will and strength to stop it.
Almost 100%, there are exceptions that can be made for health reasons or for Orthodox wishing to study at a yeshiva.
No, the draft is two years long, from ages 18-20. Killing Israelis before that time means you’re killing innocent children. Killing Israelis after that time and you’re killing civilians. Civilians who, quite likely, never took up arms against you during their tours of duty.
As far as I understand it, from an Israeli friend of mine who’s just been called up for drafting, she’s 21, it might be different for different age groups.
Girls have to do a minimum of 2 years, boys 3. After that you can leave and go back to being a civvy.
Of course there are people who don’t get drafted, for whatever reason. My friend is hoping to get out of it by failing the medical due to the fact she has scoliosis (curvature of the spine).
Also, I understand that if you have 4 or more kids, you’re exempt?
So it’s perfectly possible to find and even kill an Israeli civilian.
Actually Israel doesn’t even have an almost 100% draft, Orthodox Jews do not have to serve in the miltary and most Israeli Arabs are excluded from service except those classified as Bedouin or Druze (who may volunteer).
It’s clear that under international law that someone is only a soldier if they are in active service.
