[QUOTE=Zoe]
Frank, the flag is the symbol, not the thing symbolized. It doesn’t say anything and its meaning can and does change as the minds of the people change. I don’t own one and don’t want one.
[/QUOTE]
Well, sure, but for most black people I think you’ll find the meaning hasn’t changed much in the last hundred years.
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
It had fuck-all to do with what your determination of my meaning was.
[/QUOTE]
Utter rubbish. Otherwise the English language would be useless as a tool of communication.
You used the phrase “down the rabbit hole” because you understood (or hoped) that I would understand its meaning by recognizing it as an allusion to Alice in Wonderland, based on your knowledge that a significant portion of the public will have that understanding. The meaning of that phrase was not dependent on your private understanding of the phrase, one which I would be obligated to ask you about before reaching a conclusion as to your meaning.
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
So “observers” has now become “the broader public.” Is anything else this fluid in your definition?
[/quote]
How many times to I have to say this? To a significant portion of the American population, the Confederate flag is associated with racist ideologies. What does it matter whether I abbreviate that to “observers” or “the broader public”? You perfectly understand what I’m saying.
A flag is nothing more than a tool of communication. It has no other purpose, such as transportation (a motor vehicle) or personal aesthetics (a haircut). So when you fly a flag, just as when you use the word, it is your knowledge of what your audience will understand it to mean that is operative.
[QUOTE=LouisB]
You know, I don’t give a good goddamn what you think and what conclusions you draw. My inner motive is mine, not yours, and I don’t particularly give a good goddamn about the broader public. I mind my own business; how about you extend the same right to me? In the meantime, fuck the fuck off.
[/QUOTE]
How exactly am I interfering in your inner life? No one made you post to this thread.
Furthermore, flying a flag in public is an act of communication with the public. It is inconsistent with minding one’s own business.
Judging from some of the anecdotes, it’s beginning to. But who knows? Maybe interest in the flag will die out first. Remember, it has only the meaning that people choose to give it.
checks forum Yeah, that’s one of the stupidest statements I’ve ever heard a supposed adult make. Come back when you’ve graduated from the Land of Unicorns and Lollipops and are ready to face the real world, Zoe.
Actually, I said just it marks you as a racist. If you aren’t a racist, then don’t use a racist symbol.
[QUOTE=LouisB]
Well, yes, he is clearly an abolitionist, and in that respect he should be allowed to boast of his commitment to ending slavery, rather than lumping everyone who exercises their constitutional right to display a certain flag into one, single, group, to which he assigns the values of hatred and racism. To my mind, he is employing hate speech, which is to be deplored if not punished.
Perhaps he could better serve his abolitionist principles by visiting any one of the several places in this world where slavery is still practiced and doing any and every thing in his power to bring the evil practice to an end. By doing so, he would earn my respect and approbation, as well as the respect and approbation of a multitude of other like minded individuals. Until such time, the best attitude towards him that I can muster is fuck him and his god damned willful fucking ignorance.
[/QUOTE]
Hey, now, I never said it should be against the law to fly it. Just that doing so labels you as ignorant, racist, or both. And then you go on to say that MY speech should be limited? Contradict yourself much?
Methinks thou dost protest too much.
The bottom line is, the Confederacy was wrong and evil, and no amount of revision and rehab can change that. As I said upthread, for the South, pride cometh before and after the fall. And it’s long past time to swallow some of that pride and admit the truth.
[QUOTE=LouisB]
You know, I don’t give a good goddamn what you think and what conclusions you draw. My inner motive is mine, not yours, and I don’t particularly give a good goddamn about the broader public. I mind my own business; how about you extend the same right to me? In the meantime, fuck the fuck off.
[/QUOTE]
And a record-setting sign in a very public place is just someone trying to mind their own business?
That’s funny.
-Joe
Could you be more specific about why that is a stupid comment? As I’ve said, I don’t have a Confederate flag and don’t want one. The anecdotes that I was speaking of are ones in which African Americans are driving around in cars with Confederate flags on them. They seem to have overcome the hatred that so many have endowed the flag with. (I haven’t come that far myself.)
Do you think that the flag has meaning other than what people choose to give it? Then that would make it a magical flag. It is a symbol. Not the thing symbolized. If you still think it has meaning of its own, at what point does it get that meaning? Is the meaning in the dye? In the threads? In the colors? In the stars? If all of civilization dies out and these flags are left, will they still have meaning?
You really misunderstand a lot.
I’ve lived in the South for 65 years and at present I don’t know of anyone who thinks the Confederacy was right about slavery. Personally, I think all war is evil. I don’t think that the people in the South were anymore evil that the people in the North who owned slaves. Yes, it was horrible! But it was such a normal practice for two hundred years (mostly in the North) that people did not carefully examine the morality of what they were doing.
What kind of revision are you talking about? The last Confederate soldier died when I was a youngster. Some of them regretted what they had fought for. And many of the soldiers, if not most of them, were not slave owners. Many of their children and their children’s children’s children have tried to make life better for Africian Americans.
I don’t know what kind of pride you think we are supposed to swallow. The South is the most well-integrated part of the country. Our race relations and our economy (in general) have improved over the last twenty or thirty years. Many of the African Americans that left for Detroit and Chicago in the mid-Twentieth Century have children returning now for jobs.
Southern Pride and Southern Heritage isn’t all about the Old South. It’s a way of living today that is multi-racial. I live in Nashville. I moved to this house twenty-two years ago. There was a Baptist Church and an Episcopal Church nearby. The Baptist Church is now used by Koreans and the Episcopal Church has special services in Spanish. There are African Americans, Eastern Indians, whites and Kurds on my street. I take a lot of pride in that.
It’s time you educate yourself so that your brain isn’t stuck on a stereotype and you have some working acquaintance with the truth.
You’re absolutley right, Zoe. It’s a New South.
So get a new flag.
[QUOTE=Zoe]
Could you be more specific about why that is a stupid comment? As I’ve said, I don’t have a Confederate flag and don’t want one. The anecdotes that I was speaking of are ones in which African Americans are driving around in cars with Confederate flags on them. They seem to have overcome the hatred that so many have endowed the flag with. (I haven’t come that far myself.)
[/QUOTE]
Why do you embrace those anecdotes, but reject the many more about people, including black ones, who are offended by it? Do you always discard all evidence but that which supports your views?
[QUOTE=Zoe]
Do you think that the flag has meaning other than what people choose to give it? Then that would make it a magical flag. It is a symbol. Not the thing symbolized. If you still think it has meaning of its own, at what point does it get that meaning? Is the meaning in the dye? In the threads? In the colors? In the stars? If all of civilization dies out and these flags are left, will they still have meaning?
[/QUOTE]
The same could be said of the language we’re using to communicate with right now. Yes, Zoe, if you remove human beings and all sentient observers, semiotics cease to be meaningful. This post I’m making would have no inherent significance if I mailed it to Venus. Why do you think pointing that out is relevant to this discussion?
[QUOTE=Zoe]
You really misunderstand a lot.
I’ve lived in the South for 65 years and at present I don’t know of anyone who thinks the Confederacy was right about slavery. Personally, I think all war is evil. I don’t think that the people in the South were anymore evil that the people in the North who owned slaves. Yes, it was horrible! But it was such a normal practice for two hundred years (mostly in the North) that people did not carefully examine the morality of what they were doing.
[/quote]
That must be why the Underground Railroad brought so many escaped slaves from the dangers of Ohio to the safety of Georgia.
The revision we’ve seen in this thread- ie, the war was not about slavery, but states’ rights, etc. And there might have been many Confederate descendants that helped make life better for African Americans. But, if you have lived in the South for so long, you might remember that most of the Civil Rights movement happened there, and for a reason.
True, there is a lot of racism in the North. My experience is limited to California, where most of the “racist areas” (Kern Cty) were settled by Okies, and Michigan, where a lot of people, both black and white, moved up from the South to work in factories.
Well, that’s great. I’m sure all of your new neighbors have embraced their new culture and fly the Dixie flag with all the Southern Pride that the Sons of the Confederacy have.
[QUOTE=Great Dave]
Well, that’s great. I’m sure all of your new neighbors have embraced their new culture and fly the Dixie flag with all the Southern Pride that the Sons of the Confederacy have.
[/QUOTE]
Which is why I will staunchly defend the South, but not the flag. I lived in Nashville, and found it much more integrated and racially tolerant than the Northeastern cities I had experienced. And I saw WAY more confederate flags in central PA when I lived there than I ever did in Nashville.
This thread has gone a bit off-topic. I merely wanted to express that flying the “Rebel Flag” marks you as either racist or ignorant (or more likely, both) no matter where you do this. In fact, as I said upthread, I find it even more repugnant when I see it in the North. Southern apologists then flooded in to defend its usage. Thus, the debate has turned to how non-racist the South is now. All well and good, but it doesn’t change my (well founded)opinion about that racist symbol.
But Dave, everything means nothing so nothing means anything!
[QUOTE=Great Dave]
This thread has gone a bit off-topic. I merely wanted to express that flying the “Rebel Flag” marks you as either racist or ignorant (or more likely, both) no matter where you do this. In fact, as I said upthread, I find it even more repugnant when I see it in the North. Southern apologists then flooded in to defend its usage. Thus, the debate has turned to how non-racist the South is now. All well and good, but it doesn’t change my (well founded)opinion about that racist symbol.
[/QUOTE]
And your opinion marks you as a thick-headed jackass.
[QUOTE=LouisB]
And your opinion marks you as a thick-headed jackass.
[/QUOTE]
But your inner motive is to tell him that you love him like the little brother you never had, right? So he should give you a big ol’ smooch on the nose.
[QUOTE=acsenray]
But your inner motive is to tell him that you love him like the little brother you never had, right? So he should give you a big ol’ smooch on the nose.
[/QUOTE]
My God, you’re as stupid as he; maybe the two of you are brothers.
[QUOTE=LouisB]
My God, you’re as stupid as he; maybe the two of you are brothers.
[/QUOTE]
I’m just applying the LouisB Theory of Public Discourse. If you have a problem with that, talk to the Perfesser.
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove]
You’re absolutley right, Zoe. It’s a New South.
So get a new flag.
[/QUOTE]
I envision a design incorporating a large fiery cross (symbolizing Southern warmth and spirituality) surrounded by a group of robed and hooded figures (representing the Southern love of pageantry and community) hoisting a black man on a rope (memorializing Southern efforts to elevate the rights of minorities).
[QUOTE=Great Dave]
The revision we’ve seen in this thread- ie, the war was not about slavery, but states’ rights, etc.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think most Southerners and certainly not most Southern Dopers would argue that point.
[QUOTE=Great Dave]
But, if you have lived in the South for so long, you might remember that most of the Civil Rights movement happened there, and for a reason.
[/QUOTE]
And would you believe that some people are stupid enough to think there’s some sort of correlation between the facts that most of the early Civil Rights movement and the completely coincidental fact that 3/4 of the nation’s black people lived in the south? I’m glad you saw through that verisimilitude and know that the real reason is because most white Southerners are hate filled murderous bigots.
[QUOTE=Great Dave]
True, there is a lot of racism in the North. My experience is limited to California, where most of the “racist areas” (Kern Cty) were settled by Okies, and Michigan, where a lot of people, both black and white, moved up from the South to work in factories.
[/QUOTE]
Th.. f.. a ajf f
Okay, I had a long refutation of that involving everything from Hattie McDaniel’s grave to a quote by Huey Newton to the interment of the Japanese to the political machinery of Henry Ford to Malcolm X’s observations on growing up in Michiganian Lutheran…
But there’s no point in posting it.
Anybody who would blame **the racism in CALI-FUCKING-FORNIA on TRANSPLANTED SOUTHERNERS ** (?:eek:! :o ?!WTF? WTFWTF!?!) is either too stupid, too fanatical, too insane, too ignorant of history and sociology and every other subject of relevance, too incapable of logical construction, too perplexed by the subtle differences in having made a point and having constructed sentences… too “some combination of the preceding”- that the only real response that may register is “Fuck y’all, you bigoted imbecile!”
Fucking wow…
just…
Wow.
Damn.
That’s some stupid right there I’ll tell y’all what…
jzu auf8 a fa f fjad dumber than a dang ol’ possum on a bed of cheese gritz florentine ajd fa df
damn.
Makes me wanna go out and buy a rebel flag… never had one before but if it pisses off idiots then can’t be all bad…
Goddam…
Watts Riots… that was all about Minnie Pearl singin’ DIXIE I guess
Detroit Riot- caused by dang ol’ Tennessee Ernie Ford inciting the people I reckon…
shit.