It IS hate, not heritage. symbology of the "confederate" flag, chapter whatever

Actually, I think we got that at Appomattox. You remember, that’s where the South’s hero, Bobby Lee, came crying and and moaning and admitting that he and all his bros were our bitches. That’s what the “unconditional” part of the “unconditional surrender” someone mentioned earlier means.

There really is something to being on the winning, and losing, side.

And looking at it dispassionately, let’s assume the Confederacy had succeeded. Would the typical resident of Charleston, Charlotte, or Charlottesville laugh off if a neighbor flew the Stars and Stripes or would they be offended? Or a resident of Dublin were a neighbor to fly the Union Jack? Would you allow them to at least be annoyed?

Oh, yeah, it was all about the balance of power in the Senate–the balance of power between who and who, though? Oh, right between “agrarian” and “industrialist” states. Yeah, that was it, the South was just making its stand against the Dark Satanic Mills of the wicked, Sauron-like Northern industrialists.

The Confederacy was, as Vice President Stephens put it, a revolution. As both V.P. Stephens and the Great State of Texas made abundantly clear, it was a revolution against the ideals of the Declaration of Independence. The Confederacy was an attempt to forever deny the ideal (however hypocritically stated and however badly realized) that “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”. In its place, the would-be Founding Fathers of the Confederacy sought to estabish a political and social order where all white men would be equal and the “Negro” would be forever enslaved.

So, yes, it was about power all right–the power of the Southern slave owners to continue using human beings as chattel as the basis of a system of commodity-exporting factory farm “plantations”, and to form a society of perpetual white supremacy and perpetual racial oppression.

Originally posted by Guinastasia

Well, the OP certainly says/implies/insinuates that EVERYONE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, who displays the flag in question IS a hate-filled racist person, and that just flat out infuriates me. Without knowing me, he lumps me into a group that I have, in my private life, disavowed and will continue for the rest of my life to disavow and I deeply resent being associated with that group.

And, Guinastasia, I haven’t singled you out for any purpose other than that you posted what I’ve quoted above and for that statement of reason and understanding, I thank you most sincerely.

Well, yes, he is clearly an abolitionist, and in that respect he should be allowed to boast of his commitment to ending slavery, rather than lumping everyone who exercises their constitutional right to display a certain flag into one, single, group, to which he assigns the values of hatred and racism. To my mind, he is employing hate speech, which is to be deplored if not punished.

Perhaps he could better serve his abolitionist principles by visiting any one of the several places in this world where slavery is still practiced and doing any and every thing in his power to bring the evil practice to an end. By doing so, he would earn my respect and approbation, as well as the respect and approbation of a multitude of other like minded individuals. Until such time, the best attitude towards him that I can muster is fuck him and his god damned willful fucking ignorance.

Yesterday during lunch I had the opportunity to put a positive spin on the current Tampa flag controversy. One of my co-workers, a charming belle of the Old South (by which I mean that her body appears to have survived mostly intact from that era, perhaps by immersion in alcohol), announced her support of the display and opined that any opposition was deeply misguided, a waste of time by people who “have nothing better to do than complain.”

I couldn’t wholeheartedly agree with her assessment; however, in the interests of workplace harmony, I attempted to be as conciliatory as possible. I therefore pointed out that, although objectors have focused on negative connotations of racism and treason, so far they have entirely ignored the display’s positive, progressive side.

I suggested that the choice of the flag in question was highly significant. Instead of a more historically appropriate flag, the Sons of Confederate Veterans specifically chose to fly an adaptation of the Navy Jack, which is obviously an implicit defense of homosexuality. Also, the flag will be flown at the I-75/I-4 intersection; and the westbound exit leads directly to historic Ybor City, or “Gay-bor City” as the west end is locally known. That’s clearly no coincidence either.

I assured my co-worker that, although straight myself, I certainly understood the Sons of Confederate Veterans’ heartfelt efforts to commemorate their gay ancestors, who left their plantations and formal social commitments behind on their wartime journey of personal discovery, spooning together at night in their ships and trenches, finding warmth and solace in each others’ arms even as they were being metaphorically ass-raped by the Union Army.

I think the discussion went off the rails completely when I attempted to link the Confederate flag controversy with “The Dukes of Hazzard” and its lighthearted depiction of strapping rural Southern gays. This was not received well, as my co-worker apparently has some kind of delusory emotional fixation on Tom Wopat. At any rate she no longer seemed interested in pursuing the topic, and I was free to finish my sandwich in peace.

Later my supervisor told me that my remarks had probably encompassed several hundred violations of the workplace sensitivity guidelines. Sometimes you just can’t win for losing.

Actually, this is a pretty serious misreading of the OP.

What he is saying is that regardless of what you believe your motives are in flying the flag, you are fooling yourself if you think that’s what matters to someone observing you flying the flag. The point is that the flag is a symbol that has meaning outside your own head and that meaning is negative, regardless of what’s going on inside your head.

The act of displaying a purely symbolic object, like a flag, is communication with the public. It’s not just personal expression of inner thoughts. When you use a tool of communication, the operative meaning is the meaning that observers give it.

So, if you fly the flag with full knowledge that to a significant proportion to the public it symbolizes racist ideals, then either you are intentionally allying yourself with those racist ideals or you’re just being stupid.

I disagree with everything you just said. If I choose to display the damned thing, there is no way in this world that you can determine my motive in choosing to do so unless you ask me face to face. If you impute motives to me, you are acting out of ignorance. All I’m asking is that you do not publicly associate me with your target group unless you have discussed my motives with me. Doing so makes you and others who share your views as guilty of hate as you assume me to be.
And just for the record, I, personally, have never owned the referenced flag, nor have I ever owned any clothing of any sort that bore an image of that flag, nor have I ever owned or displayed any object whatsoever that bore an image of that flag, nor will I ever unless I receive it as a gift, in which case I will dispose of it ASAP. But I deeply resent the assumption that any one and everyone who displays the damn thing are racist hate filled scum. That assumption simply isn’t true.

Well, we’re all the way down the rabbit hole now. I only mean what you determine I do? How will I ever know what to say?

{emphases mine}

Was this a typo or do you know something about Bo and Luke that I don’t? (“If it can’t make a baby then the first cousin part don’t matter…”)

And if so, DO YOU HAVE PICTURES!? If so, depending on how many, how clear, and how, ahem, conclusive they are, I’ve got a car title and a whole bunch of appliances that could well be on their way to [wherever you are] for one little multimedia email…

ETA: Offer not valid if it’s from the “over 40 and showing it” reunion movies.

Well I don’t know that the producers ever crossed the T’s and dotted the I’s on that relationship onscreen, though I wouldn’t be surprised to learn of the existence of outtake reels in bootleg circulation. But surely the writers were as explicit as could reasonably be expected in '70s prime time, what with all the tight pants, leaning over muscle car engines and squeezing their pelvises in and out of car windows; the irrational antagonism from the local authorities; hanging out at the “Boar’s Nest,” being repeatedly thrust into prison by “Enos,” and all the visits to a perpetually oiled-up man named “Cooter.” Without the transparently obvious subtext, the show would just be a meaningless series of episodes about a bunch of hicks driving around like idiots for no good reason.

I don’t know anything about the reunion movies. However I did see John Schneider at a sci-fi convention not too long ago, looking trim, and still attracting a fair share of attention from fans. He’s grown his hair out lately.

Your inner motive is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if in your heart you are a good and true human being. You’re using a tool of communication that has a meaning to the broader public.

It’s like you were flying a flag that says “I hate niggers” and then tell me, "Yes, but to me, the phrase ‘I hate niggers’ means ‘I love fluffy puppies.’ Unless you ask me what I mean by ‘I hate niggers, you’re being hateful.’ "

How did you know how to use any of the words in your post?

So “observers” has now become “the broader public.” Is anything else this fluid in your definition?

If I buy a large, gas guzzling vehicle because I need it for my work, is “the broader public” right in thinking that I don’t care about the environment?

If I shave my head because I am balding and it simplifies my life not to get haircuts, am I a skinhead because “the broader public” sees it that way?

Why should I give a fuck what some ill-informed bigot thinks?

And, to recap,

It had fuck-all to do with what your determination of my meaning was.

Some things are symbols. Some things are just cigars. Some people do shave their heads because they’re racist bigots, but a shaved head is not, in and of itself, a symbol; it’s just a haircut.

On the other hand, words, flags, octagonal red signs with the letters S T O P on them, and radiation trefoils are symbols. A Confederate or any other flag has very little use besides that of being a symbol. I guess you could use it to keep warm (either by wrapping yourself in it or setting it on fire), although those actions might be misinterpreted too.

Now, I’m sure it’s true that not everyone who displays a Confederate flag is a racist; that is, not everyone who displays a Confederate flag is actually espousing the expressed ideals of the Confederacy (white supremacy and the subjugation of black people). Nonetheless, if you go around flying the flag of an entity, invariably some people are going to think that you are in some way expressing support for that entity and its ideals, and I think you’re just going to have to deal with that perception if you want to wave the Confederate flag.

Unless, according to ascenray, the observer determines it to be so.

I’m not arguing that a particular symbol *can’*t have a particular meaning. I disagree with the idea that my “motive is irrelevant.” That’s bullshit, plain and simple.

I wouldn’t so much say that motives are irrelevant, so much as that when you hold up an octagonal red sign with the letters S T O P on it when you mean “Go”, you can’t really expect the rest of us not to get confused a bit.

You know, I don’t give a good goddamn what you think and what conclusions you draw. My inner motive is mine, not yours, and I don’t particularly give a good goddamn about the broader public. I mind my own business; how about you extend the same right to me? In the meantime, fuck the fuck off.

Hi, I’m new to the SDMB and am flailing a bit on how this works mechanically. I wanted to draw your attention to an incident that I feel is one of the darkest days in our nation’s history: the Sand Creek massacre. You know it’s bad when it’s called a massacre and the WHITES won. I’ll leave it to you to research the details, but, I wanted to point out that the chief of the victims, Black Kettle, was flying an American flag from his tipi that morning. The ‘volunteers’ that killed him flew the same flag.
Jesus wept.

Frank, the flag is the symbol, not the thing symbolized. It doesn’t say anything and its meaning can and does change as the minds of the people change. I don’t own one and don’t want one.

It does not stand for slavery anymore. When is the last time you heard someone advocate slavery in this country?

The South is part of the United States of America. None of us participated in the Civil War. We did not commit treason or surrender. We did not own slaves.