It IS hate, not heritage. symbology of the "confederate" flag, chapter whatever

  1. My surname and about half of my paternal ancestry is Irish (there’s a politician in Ireland now who has my first, middle and last name as a matter of fact- distant cousin). I always cut myself some slack.

  2. I was nowhere near Fort Pillow. I have alibis.

As a holy day/feast day, yes. As it is now, not so much. There have been “parades” of sorts for the holiday since the 18th century (basically when Irish (and Scots Irish) mercenaries in the British Army got drunk and began marching through Manhattan in their green coats), and thereafter there was some moderate celebration and drunkenness on St. Patrick’s Day among the Irish mercenaries in America (just as there was on Ground Hog’s Day, John the Baptist Day, and every other day), but as it exists now- the enormous street celebration in major cities where everyone wears green no more connected to its roots than New Orleans Mardi Gras is connected to priests riding donkeys *in imitatio Christi * and distributing blessed rosaries to the poor of Mobile and to curious Indians(which is how that holiday began) or the rebel flag is to previous St. Andrew’s flags with stars (which did exist- even the same color scheme) or the modern day cartoon leprechaun is to the actual Irish little people myths. St. Patrick’s Day as we know it with green beer and rivers being dyed and huge floats and the like is post famine Irish, which is also post Irish crimelords (not the Winter Hill specifically but to their predecessors) and political bosses, and was begun largely by said crimelords and political bosses as bread and circuses to their constituents, and just as importantly “Hold your head up and bow to no one”.

But the point is that nobody sees celebrations of St. Patrick’s Day or wearing Erin Go Bragh flags as emblematic of “fanatical devotion to the Pope” and wildly racist criminals exploiting their own people and others with crooked elections and thugs to get wealth and power and Irish Catholic cover-ups and corruptions and Draft Riots and really depressing music and alcoholism and shrivelled potatoes. It’s seen as a matter of heritage and pride and even the descendants of the same brahmins who posted the NO IRISH signs and the descendants of Poles and Nigerians and Koreans and Russians wear green (hell, Moscow has a St. Patrick’s Day parade now) and it’s hardly even connected to history anymore. There’s a lot NOT to admire about the Irish in Ireland (who to paraphrase one of their greatest writers “If twas rainin’ soup from heaven they’d be runnin’ out with forks!”) and in America, and a lot TO admire. As the Civil War passes from living memory, that’s what the flag is a lot of southerners. Not to me personally, I doubt not to most of those on this thread, but to many it is, and these are people who are as removed from Little Round Top and Fort Pillow and slave auctions as the St. Paddy’s Day revellers are from immigrants starving in the street and the Dead Ráibéads/40 Thieves allying to fight the Bowery Boys with nail studded shilleleaghs or the “No Irish Need Apply” signs.

Again- I’m actually against it being flown from a personal [not a legal] perspective. But I’m sincerely appreciative of this thread because, though I’ve lived in the south all my life, I actually understand its appeals and origins much better now. It’s defiance/refusal to be ashamed/anger at ignorance to far more than its a racist statement.

What does a burning cross signify?

The burning cross never had ANY purpose other than racist. It was terrorism from its inception. It’s the difference in the Bismarck Cross on von Hindenburg’s uniform and the death’s head on Himmler’s cap.

So I suppose the answer would be “the burning cross signifies Really Not All That Bright’s Americanization of Godwin’s Law in this thread”.

The very best kind.

You Godwinized the thread, not me.

The point is that the Confederacy never had a reason to exist other than to defend the institution of slavery.

To repeat what I posted earlier: I do not now nor have I ever owned or displayed the flag in question nor have I ever owned or displayed any article of clothing or any object bearing the likeness of that flag, or words to that effect. That disclaimer was met by someone of undoubted brilliance with the post Methinks you doth protest too much, or words to that effect. It was such a brilliant post that I decided I had no reply worth making nor do I now. Nor do I have a reply for your third point inasmuch as I don’t fly they flag nor do I display anything that bears a likeness of that flag. However, you, in all your brilliance and with all your insight into the mind of a person you have never met see fit to label me as a racist. In view of your narrow minded refusal to accept anyone’s word but your own, no meaningful reply is possible nor will one be offered. As a last word, at least from me, you might do well to consider that those who do display the flag have a legal right to do so, just as you have a legal right to object.

I decline to participate further in a thread that was ostensibly about racism but which has degenerated into little more than a demonstration of narrow mindedness and name calling. Carry on as you will.

The irony. It burns.

You leave the thread in a huff (for the third time?) having not once addressed the real point:

What is a reasonable inference to draw about a person who uses a communicative tool that he or she knows is seen as being associated with repugnant ideas by a significant proportion of the public, regardless of whether he or she personally adheres to those repugnant ideas?

Examples:

I know that a large number of people consider use of the word “nigger” to be highly offensive and indicative of repugnant viewpoints, yet I use it in public, anyway. What inferences might you reasonably draw? Are any of those inferences benign, regardless of whether I personally hold those repugnant wordviews?

(From earlier in the thread) I am an Indian-American of Hindu background. In my cultural tradition, the swastika is considered to represent good things. I know full well that in the United States, where I live, the swastika is associated with very bad things. Yet I display it in front of my house. What inference can you fairly draw from these facts?

Now apply these to the Confederate flag flier: He knows that a significant proportion of the people who see his flying that flag will associate it with repugnant ideas, yet he flies it anyway. What are the reasonable inferences to be drawn from that?

Cite?

No homophobic intent. I’ve misplaced my SDMB Who’s Who, but now that you mention it, I do recall that you’ve mentioned your persuasion before. But if you want to play the role of the stereotypic Southern gentleman ala the Simpsons, take all the offense you want. Please don’t challenge me to a duel, I don’t know if I can give you satisfaction.

So you are saying that that wave of emigrants came West as blank slates? I’m as dubious as you are about that. Again, I am not, nor have not, said that all racism originates in the South. My point is that the Dixie flag is a racist symbol, depsite any attempts at rehabilitation.

Around here, you use the rebel/dixie flag if you are a racist or DoH fan. There might be some people throughout the country who fly it to honor the Confederacy, which also boggles me- if you aren’t racist, why would you want to associate yourself with those who are?

See, we do agree. I think people have every right to fly whatever flag they want. But, they should be aware of what message they are sending. What message do you take from seeing it?

Whatever. I’m sorry if you thought I was calling you a racist. I was only referring to the general “you”- as in, if you fly a racist flag, I will assume you to be a racist. I don’t think I’ve ever accused you, LouisB, of being a racist. I’ve also said, repeatedly, that you (again, the general you) have every right to free expression- I have never advocated outlawing the Dixie flag. But, you (as in you, Louis) did seem to protest too much, hence my earlier statement.

Being of Dutch descent, I celebrate by wearing orange, to signify William of Orange’s victory over the Catholics, or something like that. Probably just as brutal.

How does using a racist symbol show that the South isn’t as racist as it used to be?

I’ve spent all of two months in the South, in a little town north of Jackson, TN (halfway between Nashville and Memphis). I loved the barbecue at this little shack on the edge of town, where I overheard an older farmer say, “We’ve got no minorities in town, not even eye-talyuns.” My hotel was about a quarter mile away, which was owned by an Indian born in Kenya, and staffed by Mexicans. The gas station across the street was staffed by a blue eyed light skinned black girl. So it seems that race is still quite a complex issue in Milan, at least. How does your neck of the woods compare?

I know you are but what am I?

That is as ridiculous statement as saying “The war was about state’s rights, not slavery!”, just from the other side. There were reasons for the Confederacy to exist other than slavery- the first attempt at secession was over tarriffs and that issue was very much still relevant in 1861, and then there’s the fact that state’s rights WERE an issue. I don’t deny, never have denied, and have challenged those who do deny that slavery was not first and foremost the issue that cause the war, but on the bigger scale it was about the same cause that almost every other war ever fought was about (and that every war ever fought was about to some degree): ECONOMICS. As mentioned before in either this or one of the countless other “I’m Anti-Slavery! There, I Said It! Jealous?!” cage fights, the Revolutionary War was still literally alive in the memories of thousands of people who could remember the times, some of whom had even fought in the battles, when Fort Sumter fell.

As far as what the flag means today- I might get pitted for this and if so it’s a misunderstanding of what I said, but I’ll say it anyway, what the hell. Because it’s almost inconceivable to understand a time when American states were invaded by other Americans and more men died in a single battle than on 9-11 and that was far from the end of the war, let’s make an analogy that doesn’t require imagining a pasture cum morgue in Maryland or Virginia but something we hear about on the news everyday- the War in Iraq.

Okay, I’m against the War in Iraq. IMHO it never should have happened, it was the result of greed, idiocy, willful deceptions, spirited misguided patriotism, and many other factors, none of them noble. I am one of tens of millions of Americans who feels this way and strongly.

What do you hear though almost everytime you hear a politician or a writer or a celebrity or an actor or whoever condemn the war in Iraq? You hear the rider “but I support the troops” added on at the end, “While I support our troops, I feel that…” as a preface. Now if you feel, as I do, that the war was and is unjustified, that the US has no business being in Iraq and absolutely cannot win and does not even know what victory is, and after you read about things like Abu Ghraib and the David Motari ‘puppy’ incident and that by the most conservative of accounts tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed and thousands more detained on the most specious of evidence and many girls have been raped and a million or more Iraqis have been made into refugees, all for a war that should NEVER HAVE HAPPENED IN THE FUCKING FIRST PLACE… why on Earth should you support our troops?

Wouldn’t it be more logical to say, as many Americans did say in Vietnam, “These people are killing the innocent… they’re murderers… they deserve anything the alleged ‘enemy’ does to them!” After all, consider if you can even wrap your little mind around it the flip-side: imagine that China, already much larger than US, becomes much richer and much more militarily powerful than we are, and invades us. Their invasion is the result of propaganda by their leaders, total lies that the US has missiles they plan to deploy on Beijing and Tianjin or some other nonsense just to be mean and ornery and the Chinese tell their people “we must take the US out before we take them out”. Soon there are attacks on coastal California, thousands of people are killed in San Francisco and Chinese tanks are in the Rockies and continue moving and the other coast is attacked and D.C. falls and the Smithsonian is looted and Chinese troops sexually humilate Americans whose arrests weren’t even genuine and the country is in absolute utter chaos even after a puppet government is installed- would you EVER think “China is evil and their attack must be destroyed! I want to see every last Chinese soldier out of her! I want to see Beijing in flames!.. but I support their troops. After all, most of them didn’t rape anybody and they’re just doing their jobs…”

No. You’d want to see every Chinese soldier fucking dead. You probably wouldn’t particularly care whether he committed war crimes, whether he’s a great guy who has a wife and twin boys back home or not, if you had your way he’d be dead, because he’s invaded your country. So why say “But we support our troops” about the American troops in Iraq when the war is morally wrong and they’re actually the bad guys?

Let me add here, I really do “support our troops”. I want to see them all come home safely. Even though I believe the war to be unjustified and immoral I don’t believe the troops are evil. Oh some are evil, I’m sure, but most are people- from teenagers to grandparents with most in between but towards the younger end- who enlisted in the army for a variety of reasons, though probably a very low percentile of them enlisted because of a burning desire to fight Iraqis. They went to war because there’s a war on and that’s what soldiers do; they didn’t really have a choice the military gets really pissy if you don’t show up for a war I’m told.

And for the others, well- I support them because they’re us. They’re Americans. I want the war to end but I don’t want them to be casualties. This may sound irrational, and perhaps it is- but because they are Americans I feel a connection to them, regardless of the morality of the reasons they’re fighting. (Now you could say “Well what about the Iraqi suicide bombers and fighters- do you support them? They’re fighting for their soil and their way of life and their beliefs?” and you’d have a point, but the answer is “I have sympathy for them to some degree because however great our cultural and linguistic differences are they are humans, but I don’t support them because I don’t feel a connection to them, and in the event of a showdown twixt them and our troops my prayers [such as they are] support our troops”.)

Okay, this is a long way of saying that while to some the Confederate flag is an openly racist banner- just as to the Nazis and the KKK various Christian symbols were used to symbolize hate and irration- to most I honestly don’t think it is. To most, however naive or irrational they may be, it is not their intent to be racist. Most understand that the causes of the war were immoral and unjustified and the entry of the south completely stupid and their defeat almost a given from the get-go, at least in retrospect.

But they support the troops.

Not for rational reasons, but because the troops were their ancestors. They live in the same region, endure the same heat, the same “proud man’s contumely” from each “gale that sweeps from the north” (to weave quotations from two disparate if equally famous oratories), they have the same name, they speak the same language, they have the same blood, and while some of the men were certainly evil for some of all groups of men are evil most weren’t and they weren’t fighting for slavery or for tarriff reform but because there was a war on, their land was under attack, they didn’t have much of a choice to begin with (all southern men of fighting age were conscripted) but because that’s what men did when there was a war on: they fought for their side.

And seeing as how I’ve been writing digital reams in defense of a cause I don’t even believe in (repeat: on a personal level I am ethically and aesthetically and in terms of sensitivities AGAINST public displays of the rebel flag, though not as much as I’m against Ignorance on Parade floats bearing people who think being anti-slavery is some achievement 142 years after the 14th Amendment [tell me: where do you stand on the Johnson impeachment? I think he’ll get off personally] ) I’ll also yield the field. Tis yours, hoist the flag of the Vatican, the Black Panthers or the Jolly Roger, sing a rousing nasal chorus of John Brown’s Body and claim this thread for the cause of Abolitionism.

Well, glad that’s over :wink:

Nope - some of us Okies who relocated to California now want to wade into the fray swingin’!

Don’t you have minorities to oppress?

That is my complaint! Where I now live, I AM the minority (my son’s grade school yearbook shows him as an island of Anglo in a sea of Indian and Chinese) - so I have to oppress myself.

“My name is Algher!”
crack
“My name is Tom!”
“My name is…”
crack
“…Algher!”

“Race” can be a complex issue and it may not even exist except as a social construct.

I haven’t always lived in Nashville. I also grew up in a small town about fifteen miles from Milan. I will be greatly surprised to learn that Milan doesn’t have African-American citizens.

Great Dave, if I were you, I would take the time to search out the other liberals in the town and the county and learn a little bit about the reality rather than the myth. There is both good and bad where you are living. There are terribly prejudiced people and some of them sing in the choir on Sunday mornings. And there are men who cry when they see others suffering and try to put an end to it.

Try to let down your guard a little. Get to know the people without judging them. Remember that a Southern dialect doesn’t give you much information about intellect. I don’t blame you for taking your cues from the Confederate flag there though.

Two writers might interest you. Jesse Hill Ford and Peter Taylor were both from Gibson County. Ford wrote The Liberation of Lord Byron Jones which was based on a racial incident from the 1950s or 1960s. Ford himself was later tried for murder. At least you will be able to see that it is a more peaceful county now.

Have you been to Skullbone or Skullbonia yet? Look it up on the internet. Bizarre!

I was in Milan for work in the summer of 2001 (in fact, my last flight home was supposed to be 9-11, so I got a paid road trip, with stops at Graceland, the Big Texan Steak Ranch, the largest cross in the Western Hemisphere, and the Grand Canyon, so it wasn’t all bad that week for me). I did stop in Skullbone, and have the T-shirt. Seemed pretty, uh interesting, that’s for sure. That time was my introduction to sweet tea (an understatement) and hush puppies.