It IS hate, not heritage. symbology of the "confederate" flag, chapter whatever

And on July 26, 1934, Mrs. Hamish McKeever of Snakebit, MS, hung a decorative plate emblazoned with the Confederate battle flag over her mantlepiece. So there.

The fact that some Alabama frat boys once created an overnight fad when their football team won really doesn’t persuade me that it was a ubiquitous and neutral icon, or that the flag’s symbolism had been rehabilitated by the time Alabama raised it over their state house in 1963 (maybe they were just celebrating their team’s 1926 victory a little late, but I think it was something else). Just to clean up a little: Brown v. Board – 1954. Georgia incorporates the Confederate battle flag into its state flag: 1955. South Carolina follows: 1962. Alabama raises the flag alongside its state flag: 1963. Dixie Oil motto: “Serving the South since 1959.” Dixie Crystals logo: a red stripe crossing a blue stripe – not even a reasonable stunt double for what we’re talking about.

Speaking of stunt doubles. Sampiro, I assume you’re just being funny and clever in your discussion of the flag in movies. I mean, use of the flag in nationally popular films might tend to indicate the image had transcended politics and achieved a simpler role as a generic symbol of things southern – if both flicks had not been precisely about southern defiance in the face of northern aggression/oppression. Which, with the emphasis on race, is exactly how Bilbo and Maddox and Wallace and Thurmond meant it later, and how Mississippi (as noted, a very special case) meant it all along.

Anyhow, the issue is a red herring I won’t chase anymore. Prove the rag was as abundant and pure as mother’s milk from Appomattox up 'til 1955, and it won’t change the fact that now it’s an offensive icon full of repugnant meaning. The fact is that there was no real need for racist symbolism then: when every school, bus station, restaurant and toilet upholds the ideals of white supremacy, you can slack off a tad in the war of semiotics.

Zoe, you’re being less than lucid. Whites don’t own southern heritage, which is why their embrace of the flag exposes them as hypocrites. What I was suggesting, gently, is that forming a group – any group, but let’s say one dedicated to southern culture and heritage – is apt to attract all kinds of people, and draping a big confederate battle flag over it is an effective way to keep black people away, and I think it’s often done on purpose to achieve just that result. Grocery stores, crawdads, jazz and Titans games all share the characteristic of having nothing to do with the subject unless the damned old rag shows up, and then they’re no exception to anything I’ve said.

That’s Dixie Oil Company of Alabama, I believe. Different entity, confusingly similar name. (There are a lot of those around, it seems. Here, as another example, is the Dixie Gas and Oil Company, established 1946.)

Dixie Motor Oil was around a lot longer than that. You can find their old signs and gas pump globes for sale online.

Look, you’re the one arguing that the flag went away. Prove it, with something other than your say-so. I’ve provided evidence to the contrary.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear.

If Jolly Roger is adopted by criminals to be their symbol of wanton lawlessness, and they display that flag whenever they are engaged in robbery, murder, and raping to such an extent that the mainstream population has come to associate that flag with criminals and very little else, then it is stupid to display that flag as some silly ode to Johnny Depp and then be offended when people consider you a criminal-sympathizer.

Here’s a scene from Bug’s Bunny’s Southern Fried Rabbit, featuring the rebel flag. The short is from 1953, pre-dating the Brown v. Board of Education decision.

spoke-, you seem inordinately focussed on a trivial part of the discussion. It’s my impression that the image of the battle flag was not nearly as prevalent before segregationists adopted it (an impression that you and Sampiro have, frankly, reinforced rather than contradicted with your examples), but even if that’s not so it doesn’t affect my opinion about the flag and its meaning one bit. But rather than merely show a picture of a commercial logo designed to appeal to a certain demographic, go ahead and finish the thought. What do Dixie Motor Oil (or for that matter, Bugs Bunny) lead you to conclude about the flag and what it represents?

Did Ray Bolger once save your life or did you come by your love of strawmen some other way? NOBODY HERE has argued that it’s devoid of Confederate and racist connotations, only that it did not “go away” until being trotted out by rednecks yelling “Ole! Ole!” to Rosa Parks on the way off the bus.

As I said, I am not here to defend the flag, merely to correct the mistaken impression that displays of the flag only commenced in response to the Civil Rights movement. (It is true, as I wrote earlier, that segregationists seized on the flag as a symbol of defiance.)

What do Dixie Motor Oil and Dixie Crystals and Bugs Bunny tell us? That the flag (before the Civil Rights era) was seen as a fairly innocuous symbol of the South. Innocuous enough to be used in advertising without fear of alienating customers. Innocuous enough to appear in a humorous context in a cartoon without fear that Warner Brothers would be boycotted or buried in angry letters. And, as I keep pointing out, it was innocuous enough, even in the 70s and early 80s that it showed up in Animal House and The Dukes of Hazzard, and was sold in childrens’ comic books without a whisper of protest.

Again, you may argue that the flag never should have been viewed as innocuous (and I might even agree with you), but what you can’t successfully argue is that the flag was never seen as an innocuous emblem. (Or do you mean to imply that John Landis and Harold Ramis are awful racists?)

On preview, I disagree with Sampiro to the extent that I think that the flag was, for most people, an innocuous symbol of the South. I think that is no longer true, and that these days, most people associate it with racism. That is why it is no longer flown by anyone with manners.

By the way, nobody seems to be responding to the Animal House thing, so I put it to you Greg, I mean King of Soup: What do you think the director meant to convey by putting a Confederate flag in the Delta house?

Sampiro, obviously I’ve misunderstood, been misunderstood, or both. A lot of words have recently been put in service demonstrating that the flag was indeed prominent between the war and the 1950s. As it happens, I think the examples provided are paltry enough to almost prove the reverse is true, but since the issue is stunningly unimportant to the topic there’s no reason to make an issue of it. A separate question is whether use of the image in that time period was somehow innocent (and I apologize for my assumption that that’s what you were getting at, but I couldn’t and still can’t see what your point was, if not that), and that’s a little more relevant. The reason I thought you were being subtle and ironic is because the two movies you mentioned made the social/political meaning of the flag real clear, rendering it nigh-impossible for anyone who had seen them to look at the image and think only “Hm. Motor oil.” Or, “That was a hell of a team.” And a lot of people saw them. Sorry if I offended you, but you pretty much left your point open to guessing and when you do that there’s always a chance someone will guess wrong.

spoke-, I offer the thought that appeals to racism are not always money-losing propositions. And I didn’t see Animal House. But let’s cut across. There are ways to make use of the flag without endorsing or pandering to racism. You could burn it. You could ridicule it. You could tell the truth about it. If anyone wants to see if they can pull it off, they’re allowed to try.

Was I lucid enough when I agreed with you that a Confederate battle flag would tend to keep African-Americans away?

What part of my agreeing with you was less than lucid?

What you didn’t understand was that no one is keeping you from participating in Southern cultural activities. Blacks and other races are just as much a part of Southern culture as whites are. I gave you several examples. You don’t seem to accept examples as just that: examples – not a comprehensive list. Yet, you yourself don’t offer examples to back up your complaints.

Now you say that the use of Confederate battle flags at Southern heritage or Southern cultural events are “often done on purpose to achieve just that result.”

What Southern heritage or Southern cultural events can you list as examples where the Confederate battle flag has often been used to discourage the participation of African-Americans?

I cannot recall even being at a cultural event where there was a Confederate battle flag present. There was one in maybe a couple of elementary school classrooms in 1952-53. And at a sorority rush in 1962 or 1963 there may have been one since the theme was the Old South. Absolutely nothing since.

One non-racial use of these battle flags that I remember for myself quite well was that there were some Confederate flags around for the Centenniel of the Civil War from 1961-1965. An observance of the war and its history does not equate to pro slavery even though I have no trouble seeing part of the war itself in that light. At that time, the African-Americans weren’t making known their objections to the flag as far as I knew. They were involved with more important things such as the Freedom Rides.

I am aware that sometimes my posts are a little inchoherent. I don’t mind trying to explain.

The sentence “Yes, it does.” was clear as a bell. You definitely seemed at that point to understand that the thing, whatever its evolution, and however semioticians may dissect its meaning (not that there’s any reasonable doubt), now plays a reliable role as a “Keep Out” sign directed at black Americans.

Right after that, however, you jumped the rails. All the backyard barbecues, football games and jazz concerts that don’t include display of the confederate battle flag may or may not welcome black Americans, but they are not no-way, no-how relevant to a discussion of what the damned old rag means, which is what some of us are discussing, even if it’s just out of politeness to the OP. My argument isn’t that the image is everywhere (apologies for the waste of 10 seconds to those who read the thread). It’s that it’s an offensive, racially-exclusive icon that proves those who embrace it in the name of southern heritage are hypocrites or liars because they’re sacrificing a vital historical and cultural resource in order to ward off the targets of their bigotry.

You’re almost back on track. What I’m saying is that when the flag is displayed, it’s often at least partly for the purpose of creating a no-blacks zone. You agreed that that’s the effect: are you saying that after so many years white people are oblivious to the cause?

One of isn’t understanding something, that’s for sure. The discussion is not about how many venues there are in the south that accept blacks. It’s about the display of the confederate battle flag, and what that means. I’m making no claims now about who and how many, and for now a tally of how many do and how many don’t interests me not at all. Everywhere the flag is displayed it wards off black people, and that was the point.

And I can’t resist asking: Zoe, your posts indicate that you’ve made an assumption about my race. Without spoiling things for everyone else, tell me, what exactly led you to this assumption?

With respect, if you lived any significant part of your life in the south, and your other posts describing your past are remotely accurate, do you quite realize how completely this statement discredits anything you might say?

I know. Thank you.

The hell? I’m 41, I’ve lived almost all of my life in Alabama and Georgia, and I, like Zoe, cannot recall being at a cultural event where the Confederate battle flag was present. (Actually- I take that back- I remember a rider in CSA uniform riding it around the ring at a rodeo when I was a kid- there were also riders holding the other flags that have flown over Alabama, but admittedly it was the rebel flag that got the most applause, but again that was at a rodeo and that was over 30 years ago). It’s just not really that ubiquitous a symbol here. (Now I can think of several places where you can see one flying- some private property and some Civil War related historical sites- but as far as cultural events- it’s just not done.)

But you DID make claims about the frequency of blacks being shut out of celebrations of Southern culturall heritage because the Confederate battle flag was on display:

Now please give examples of this being a problem that you have been a witness to. Or give cites that we can check where this has been the case. Or just tell us how you can read the minds of people and know their motives.

More later. Storm is coming. I have to close down.

The endless contradictions would be hilarious, were they not so tragic. Sampiro, who is 41 years old and says he has has lived all his life in Alabama and Georgia, can’t recall a single glimpse of the racist, segregationist confederate battle flag even though both those flags have been flying only a few feet over his apparently empty fucking head since before he was fucking born. He can assert with great confidence that the racist rag was everywhere before he was born, mind you: but apparently he never saw it – it just vanished somehow once his birth certificate was notarized, so he can still show up here to assert that it was flown without his or his kinfolks’ approval. Zoe is here to remind us all that when you give a bigot an inch, she’ll take an inch and a mile: wouldn’t it be nice to have her explain (as she was politely asked) why she thinks I’m the race she assumes for me?

The flag we’re discussing is an emblem of racism, and the excuses we’re forced to endure are excreted by a combination of hatred and cowardice. Fine. From now on, that’s the basis of discussion.

  1. Learn to read.
  2. Learn to comprehend what you have read.
  3. Then read a book on how to go fuck yourself, you arrogant mongoloid, for I daresay I’ve things growing on cheese in my refrigerator that could beat you at chess.

Neither Zoe nor I said anything even remotely close to the words you’ve attributed to us. Above, I specifically said

The italicization of “cultural events”, a phrase lifted verbatim from Zoe’s qualified statement, was in the original. A cultural event- a play, a concert, arguably even a movie or a church service or dining out or a wedding… these are cultural events. I don’t know/don’t care where you live, but for me riding down the interstate and seeing a rebel flag flying over a trailer or walking down a sidewalk and seeing one flying over the grounds of Jefferson Davis’s house doesn’t qualify as a cultural event.

Though if you can read Zoe’s post and denounce her as a bigot, then I suppose what others would consider “culture” is to you effete elitism and what others would consider passive endeavors you would consider the height of cultural enrichment. As to what race you are- and I don’t know and don’t care- I’m gonna guess you’ve not a particularly great example of it, or if you are then racism against whatever group that is may well be justified.

And that’s how it starts, isn’t it? Somebody gets mad, and decides his personal anger justifies racism “against whatever group.” I wish people would quit this nonsense. But they won’t, so –

Hi, there, Sampiro - I’m afraid you’re right. I’m not a great example of my race, and there’s no point anymore in trying to pretend that I am. You and Zoe (please be gentle here) are just trying to maintain the purity of cultural events. Hey - note the italicization here, guys! And it’s certainly not your fault if those events turn out badly for you.


Oh fucking spare me.

Actually, I’ve state repeatedly, in this thread and in others, I’m against displays of the flag and for numerous reasons, one of which is that I think it’s racially insensitive.

Unfortunately you’re either too deranged or too moronic (and I don’t discount the possibility that you’re both) but either one alone makes debating you a worthless exercise, as evidenced by the fact that you’ve committed countless logical fallacies on this page alone and ALL WHILE ARGUING WITH SOMEBODY WHO AGREES WITH YOU THAT THE FLAG IS OFFENSIVE AND SHOULDN’T BE DISPLAYED EXCEPT IN HISTORICAL CONTEXT*! In fact I’m the one who bumped this thread over what I saw as the idiocy of the Sons of Confederate Veterans in displaying it on I-75. You are too much of a a frigging moron to even know what you’re arguing about!

Hey Bubbbba…

Once again we agree, and I don’t even know what race you are but I’m playing the odds based on written evidence.
**The shouldn’t here being, obviously, an ethical objection and not a desire to see it illegalized, and the exception obviously being when it is displayed in historic context (museums, battlefields, etc., and a monument raised by a bunch of good ol’ boys on a place of no real significance in the Civil War is not valid historic context). *

Sampiro, even though you’re against the gratuitous or casual display of the flag (and hooray for you, really, I mean it), anecdotes about how it wasn’t offensive at the 1926 Rose Bowl and motor oil and personal reminiscences of not having seen it at italicized cultural events and challenges about how often and where I’ve seen it (as if any of that matters) are pretty much the standard line one expects from the other side of the hall. And personal abuse, and a line or two about how sometimes racism is deserved, but I see you’ve got those bases covered as well. Anyway, I overreacted, and I’m sorry for that. Apologies to Zoe as well.

You’re in the dilemma of wanting to be on the right side of the argument but not much caring for the company over there. I have the same problem sometimes. Best regards.

Um… Sampiro, why, exactly, are you arguing?

You’re personally against displaying the flag. We get it. But… uh… nobody is saying that it should be banned, just that displaying it makes you a jerk - which seems to dovetail rather nicely with what you’re saying.

What’s the deal?

I don’t get it either.