It IS hate, not heritage. symbology of the "confederate" flag, chapter whatever

I might be using somewhat broad strokes, but

Wiki
and

Wiki again

I’m sure I could dig up a few more quotes. It seems pretty clear that the CSA was fundamentally racist. I’ve never said that there is no racism in the North. I’m more pissed about people who use the flag in the North (withou family ties); at least in the South, there is the lame excuse of honoring CSA veterans and KIAs. My point is that there is no good reason for flying that flag, except in historical contexts, as it reinforces and perpetuates racism. If we are ever going to get past race in this society, proudly displaying racist symbology has to stop.

I’m a California girl, myself, so it’s hard for me to really understand the notion of ‘Southern pride,’ as exemplified by the Confederacy and the Confederate flag. To the degree that I identify with the Civil War at all, I do it through a Union lens.

However, I’ve lived in the South for 17 years, off and on, and I’ve known people here – decent, kind, non-racist people – who do embrace their ‘Southern heritage.’ All kinds of people, too. Here in my town there are at least three black guys who drive around in cars with rebel flag bumper stickers – one of them with the ‘heritage not hate’ slogan underneath. Another car I’ve seen (I’ve never seen the driver, just the car) has three bumper stickers – a Wiccan one, an Air Force one, and a rebel flag one.

Just the fact that a person displays a rebel flag does not make him or her a racist. There genuinely are people – again, good, decent people – who do view it as a symbol of regional & personal pride.

All that said; I think it’s probably too late to redeem this particular symbol. The fact is, most people (pretty much everyone in the North and West; plus a big chunk of the population in the South) do view it a symbol of hate & racism. I don’t believe any amount of education or arguing is going to change that now. If I were a ‘Southern heritage’ adherent, I’d be looking for another symbol, frankly. Because I think this one is finished.

How many southerners have you, personally, met who celebrate the peculiar institutions of the antebellum south? It’s really not quite as obnoxiously prevalent down here as you might think. For example, in the thread I started, a co-worker- who’s got a deep southern drawl and is a NASCAR and country music fan for that matter- is irked by the fact that her neighbor is flying a rebel flag in a Montgomery [first capitol of the Confederacy] neighborhood because she deems it inappropriate and potentially commercially harmful to the value of her housing.

As for northerners not celebrating their heritage as much, that again goes back to a General Lee observation- general-lee, y’all just ain’t as interestin’ as we are. :slight_smile:

That said, there are more than a few (more than a few thousand in fact) northern Civil War reenactors. An article I read recently actually said that Civil War reenactment is actually growing fastest among black northerners (particularly those descended from the 200,000 black northern troops I would think). If you’ve never been to Gettysburg, it’s a HUGE tourist town, and much of New England reveres its Calvinist heritage in spite of their witch hunts and proud intolerance, and I’ve no problem with that.

Far from disagreeing I’ve said exactly the same thing many times using the same quotes from better sources than wiki and even citing the cornerstone speech. I don’t deny the racism of the Confederate government, it just wasn’t limited to southern states. (There was, for example, another Jefferson Davis who was union but more virulently racist than the CSA president, while Sherman used the word nigger in his correspondence habitually, Lincoln wanted blacks resettled in Central America, millions of northerners were against the war, several Union generals were slaveholders themselves while many CSA generals owned no slaves (Robert E. Lee, Joseph Johnston, etc.).
My own ancestors served under General Joseph Wheeler, who though Georgia born was from a New England family and spent all but the first few years of his life in Connecticut, New York City, West Point, and New Mexico and owned no slaves. After the war he became a general in the United States cavalry and served at San Juan Hill (where at one point while chasing Spanish troops is said to have flashbacked and cried out something like “C’mon boys! We’ve got the damned Yankees on the run!”)

In any case, all asides aside, the war was an INCREDIBLY COMPLEX subject and it’s too greatly simplified and romanticized and misunderstood by BOTH southerners and non-southerners. I think that a modern southerner who flies the rebel flag is either racist or ignorant and either way being way too simplistic, and I think that a northerner who sees Confederate iconography on par with the swastika is as well.

The Nazis began a war for the sole purpose of seizing territory- southerners began a war for independence.
The Nazis intentionally wanted to “purify” the white race by killing Jews and non-whites, the southerners wanted to continue the undeniably racist practice of slavery (which had been practiced from Maine to Tierra del Fuego and from the Atlantic to the Pacific all in living memory of the war) because they feared their economy would collapse without it (which it did).

The biggest comparison twixt Confederate soldiers and Nazis is that in both armies, as in the Union army, most of the privates fought not because they were so heavily ideologically and morally and economically invested in the war themselves but because there was a war on and their friends and relatives and neighbors were fighting on the side they joined. (Of my Wheeler Cavalry Corps ancestors, both were poor white farmers and neither owned slaves- I seriously doubt that it was the Cornerstone Speech that moved them so much as the Conscription Act.) In the big picture the war was about continuing slavery for the Confederate politicians and preserving the Union (NOT ending slavery) for the northern politicians, but for the footsoldiers who are the ancestors of most southerners it was about fighting to protect their homes and then getting caught up in a maelstrom of just fighting to survive.

An important difference between southerners and northerners, incidentally, is that for northerners whose ancestry goes back to 1850 or before there’s a chance you’re descended from Civil War veterans, because not all northerners fought. They didn’t need to. (I did research on Laura Ingalls of Little House fame recently, for example, and though her father Charles was a native New Yorker who moved to Illinois and then to Wisconsin [all about as anti-slave and pro-Union as you get] and was prime fighting age (in his mid 20s when the war broke out) neither he nor his brothers ever joined the Union Army.)
OTOH, for southerners whose ancestral lines go back to 1850 or before, you can be absolutely assured that if you had more than one or two fighting age ancestors here at that time, they fought in the war. That’s one reason it is a bigger deal to us than it is to northerners- we’re a bit more connected to it.
There’s also the psychology of defeat which is as true in Troy, Alabama as it was for the great-grandchildren of the survivors of the sack of Troy. If you’ve lost everything (which so many did) and you’ve lost loved ones and there’s hardly a house in the land without its dead and everywhere you go for 50 years you see aging men with amputated limbs and the ruins of once fine homes and mounting poverty, it’s damned near a necessity to make the war a Lost Cause that was noble, regardless of the truth, and

Well, I’ll leave it there as nothing’s going to change minds in the pit, but the point is don’t do drugs, wear your seatbelt, and the rebel flag is an irritant but not a swastika.

I can’t do this. It’s by definition the battle symbol of a group who went to war in large part to further slavery, and if you want to be proud of being Southern, find another symbol. We can’t extend that line of thinking to everything.

And yes, I think it’s completely stupid for people to wear these Mao shirts. Do they have ANY idea who that is, what he stood for and did?

What I was trying to do was say that in my own personal experience I’ve known black guys who weren’t bothered by the rebel flag. They hung out with and were friends with white students who had rebel flags on their trucks. It’s because they knew the guys in question, played football with them and knew they weren’t racist guys. If they were racist guys, they wouldn’t want to be friends with black guys and black guys wouldn’t want to be friends with them.

There’s no hard and fast rule for how the rebel flag is going to be taken by others. Some people are going to be extremely disgusted by it, especially people who didn’t grow up around it. They will assume that it’s intended as a racist symbol, whereas usually it’s intended more as a hard-headed, stubborn, “don’t fuck with the little guy” sentiment. Around here it’s not an upper-class thing. This isn’t the South, where I am, it’s southern Indiana, which has no tradition of slavery or rich Southern “gentry” in its history. It’s a rural working-class badge of honor. A lot of the guys who have it on their trucks are probably racist. And a lot of guys who don’t have a rebel flag anywhere are racist. And a lot of guys who have the rebel flag just mean it in the same way as those little stickers of Calvin pissing on the Ford/Chevy/Nascar driver number (x) - it’s just an obnoxious little way of saying fuck you to polite society.

That was me thirteen years ago when I worked as a kitchen skivvy at Six Flags Ova JoJa. Where did I work? The Plantation House, which served fried chicken and biscuits. All the lowly employees were black. Our managers were white (I’m sure it was a coincidence, but the irony burns). All day long we were tortured with the themes from Gone With the Wind and Driving Miss Daisy piped in over loud speakers. Across the path was the Monster Plantation, where the monsters were slightly reminiscent of zombie slaves (at least to me).

Can’t imagine Six Flags over Germany romanticizing Aushwitz like that.

I’ve known black guys who ARE offended by it. What is the point of the dueling anecdotes? I did cite an actual study which said that 74% of black people surveyed wanted the flag removed from the South Carolina State House. That says to me that the majority of black people have a problem with the flag, but there’s a decent minority who doesn’t feel that way. Do with that data what you will. I do think it’s disingenuous to say this:

What exactly are you rebelling against by displaying the CBF? It seems to me that you choose to ignore the meaning of well-known symbols at your own risk. I guess if you don’t care how it makes other people feel, then go ahead. I do not think that people who are offended by it are being oversensitive either. The people I know who display it hope that others are offended by it, not because they are racist per se, but because they think it’s bad ass to piss poeple off, and they think they’re irritating PC liberals, not blacks specifically. Which is pretty juvenile IMO.

Hell, I’m just trying to explain my own personal experience with the flag. No more, no less. I’m sure most black people are offended by that flag. No, they’re not thin skinned for being offended by it, it’s fine.

There’s definitely an element of trying to piss people off by displaying the flag. A certain segment of society is going to do things specifically because they’re not supposed to. Whether that’s juvenile or obnoxious is your call. But there’s a difference between that and displaying the flag as a racist statement.

Never mind. Actually, I’m going to bow out from this thread. This is one of those things that never turns out well. People either “get” the rebel flag or they don’t. Threads like this are always 50 pages long. I don’t want to be part of the debate and piss anyone off.

Yes, I agree, I think there’s a difference in their intention. I know what you mean, but… there is a certain measure of assholishness that comes from being a rebel at the price of offending people who have every right to be offended under the circumstances. Can’t you pick a way to rebel or to commemorate your Southern heritage or be a bad ass that doesn’t make people think about 400 years of racist oppression? It shows a lack of imagination if nothing else.

Well, let’s break this down from a Yankee POV, because I think it nicely illustrates why flying the Confederate flag seems schitzo and delusional, if not intentionally offensive.

Independence: The South is not independent and it never successfully was, not for one second in time. We fought a war over it and you lost. So rationally it’s not so much a symbol of “independence” as when the South tried to be independent and failed. Memorializing failure seems odd.

History: The Civil War was not the South’s shining moment – the attempted destruction of the Union in order to make sure you all could continue to keep other people enslaved. One thing that has surprised me since I’ve moved to the South is the long, valiant, and honorable role played by the South in the Revolutionary War – something to be truly proud of but almost never talked abuout in the North, unfortunately. But even if it’s only widely known in the South, how many people do you see flying Revolutionary War era flags? Memorializing history that is at best complex, at worst shameful, and either way painful to a sizeable subset of your citizenry seems very odd.

Honor and Pride: In what, exactly? And nothing has happened since you could be proud of? The New South is a model of successful economic growth and racial integration. How come no one flies a flag for that? To have to reach back 150 years for the source of your honor and pride seems odd.

Well, that certainly makes it sound like you think they’re racist, making as you do the strange connection between flying the flag and disliking how “some black people are loud and rowdy in public situations”. (As if some white people are not?)

In light of the offensiveness the Confederate Flag conveys to many people, IMO there really isn’t a defensible reason to fly it. Raising it does not convey “Leave me the fuck alone.” People who truly want to be left alone don’t use symbolism to provoke and alienate their neighbors.

You might not be paying attentiong anymore, as you’ve sinced bowed out, but I don’t think that everyone who flies the flag is racist. Just the ones who aren’t ignorant of its history and connotations. Of course, you can be racist and ignorant at the same time. Quite easily, actually.

I don’t think the Confederate Battle Flag has anything to do with Southern pride anymore. It did at one time. I thought it was beautiful a long, long time ago. Tacky? I’m sure a lot of people would see anything with bars or stripes and lines of stars as tacky. It depends on your perspective.

In the past week I’ve driven the length of Alabama twice with the exception of the last 125 miles back to the Tennessee state line. That’s roughly 800 miles of road from Tennessee to Gulf Shores. During all of that time I didn’t see any Confederate flags. I haven’t seen any in Nashville in a long time. (Villa’s post mentions a similar experience.)

As for honoring racists, we citizens do that all the time when we honor our founding fathers. Most were racists. They were blind to their own discrimination and just couldn’t see it even though it was right in front of them. (Just as genderists do now.)

Most ante-bellum observances take place in or around plantation houses. There just aren’t that many around. Except for historical purposes, “Old South” themes have fallen out of favor. I hope that we will continue to search for the truth of that period and to present it as it really was.

Most of the South wasn’t settled during the Revolutionary War. I guess that’s why we feel some distance in general.

We are not about to apologize for our abundant interest in history. family, story-telling, football, cooking styles, black sheep, the Celts, the sacred and the irreverent. Every Southerner here could add to that list or disagree with it.

Maybe you are from somewhere else and also have a sense of place and a list of your own. That’s lovely.

You can continue to use the CBF for your own purposes because this is a free country and you are free to offend people. But most Southerners will think you are silly.

I noticed it happen immediately post 9/11. Seemingly overnight the Stars and Bars were replaced by the Stars and Stripes. You’ll still see them occasionally displayed at flea markets or little roadside booths hawking beach towels and velvet Elvises, but pretty scarce in the mainstream.

So’s this flag. I wonder if people would take it that way if I put it on a t-shirt and walked around Lower Manhattan.

The South lost but we still live in the South. It’s still our home. It’s still a separate region, geographically and culturally.

Once again, it’s not really about the war itself. It’s more of a rivalry of differences, Mets fans vs. Cubs fan or whatever would be a good sports analogy (I don’t follow sports.)

In the case of the Confederate flag it’s differences in ideology, lifestyle, and just plain geography. Honestly a lot of us resent the “Northerners” coming into our areas, not because we don’t like the people themselves, it’s that they want to move in and start complaining if someone has a torn-apart 62 Ford sitting in their front yard or you shoot a rifle on your own property. Plus the first thing they start complaining about is there is nowhere to shop, nothing to do. Well fuck, if you wanted to live in a city then live in a goddamn city. Don’t move into a rural area and complain there’s no stores. That’s how it’s supposed to be.

The economic growth is part of what we’re proud of. There’s plenty of good industry here.

I’m addressing the automatic assumption is that people flying the Confederate Flag are racist. I don’t think they are in most cases. They judge people by their actions.

The people flying it are saying “Leave me the fuck alone, I won’t bother you if you don’t bother me. Let me live my life and I’ll let you live yours.” I lived next to a 6-foot Confederate flag for years, I think I’m qualified. Many people misinterpret it though.

That’s a really stupid analogy. I don’t see any Southerners blowing themselves up in NYC.

I would guess that the 7th grader didn’t “know” what the flag meant, but rather knew the more recent hype about the flag and it’s connotations to the people who shared their ignorance with the child. It is the same way with any supposed controversial symbol. If I wear a pentacle in public, I get strange looks, and have been approached with questions. I know what the pentacle/pentagram means in general, and to me personally, but many who see it don’t understand the history or meaning behind it, and automatically see me as a Satan worshipper, when that’s not at all true.

The confederate flag has both positive and negative historical connotations, and just as it is your right to display it, it is also the right of those who misunderstand the display to speak their minds, but the flag itself is not ‘hate’ it is a symbol some used for hate and some used to mark their place in the history of this nation.

Now, if you ask me if I’d fly it? No. I’m a born and bred northern boy, I have no real connection to the flag, but if I did, I would.

That IS a really stupid analogy. I mean, Al Quaeda sort of wants to take over the world, as opposed to, y’know “you leave me alone and I’ll leave you alone”. Plus, I’m not sure many people would know what all that right-to-left chicken scratch meant.

I don’t recall that (not disputing, just don’t recall), but the CBF did become super huge in the early/mid 1990s for a couple of reasons. One reason (and the lesser) was that Georgia, Alabama, and other states were having their “silly seasons” again with the damned “should it fly above the capitol?” debate (which goes on a cycle with years in which a legislator proposing school prayer, years in which a legislator wants evolution removed from textbooks- and wildcard years [most recently the 10 Commandments]). The other reason is one that I would be curious to learn whether it was strictly regional to Alabama and Georgia (the two states I spent time in around this time) or if it existed South-wide or even outside the south.

The Spike Lee movie MALCOLM X was released in '92 and had a huge merchandising tie-in. A lot of young black men began wearing caps and T-shirts emblazoned with the stylized X from the movie poster. Speaking only for myself I didn’t find this objectionable at all (to the delight of most black youth, who it is fairly well known seek my approval) and in fact I had not only seen the movie twice at the theater and thought it was excellent but had a good friend at the time who played a supporting role in it [she in fact dances wi… well, that’s another story and irrelevant]).
Anyway, had they stopped at the X I think any white person who got irked would have been assholish, but some of the clothing added the line [from Malcolm X’s speeches and from the movie] By Any Means Necessary, which was a little provocative perhaps, but still not incendiary, but what was deliberately incendiary was when a lot of young black men started wearing T-shirts with a picture of Denzel Washington as Malcolm X (or airbrushed or crudely repro’d photographs on the knockoff merchandising) holding an automatic weapon ala this pic AND the phrase “by any means necessary” and the X. Fair being fair, I don’t think the fairskinned had to be particularly thin-skinned to find this deliberately incendiary or offensive.

For myself the main reason I was pissed was that the quote was so out of context. In the first place, while Malcolm X believed in and taught self-defense, he did not advocate violence. In the second, the scenes in the movie in which he’s holding a rifle were all scenes in which he was guarding his family from assassination attempts by his own former allies in Elijah Muhammad’s camp, though I don’t think anybody would pretend with a straight face that the shirts/posters/keychains being sold with the image were meant to intimidate the Fruit of Islam. What most pissed me off personally was that I found The Autobiography of Malcolm X and to a large degree the movie itself as one of the most important works in American literature on the value of self-education and critical thinking, and yet the combination of gun/slogan/X clearly was not promoting education and critical thinking as the necessary means.

So anyway, a lot of people, myself included, got pissed at these shirts and there were even black ministers (some of them men who’d been active in the Civil Rights era of Montgomery) who preached sermons condemning the not so subtle subtext of the shirt, which had the very predictable effect of making them sell even better than they were before (in fact this is probably when all the inferior knockoffs started being sold). That’s also when a bestselling counter T-shirt/bumper sticker/poster started being sold, usually in gas stations and redneck-centric places, that featured a big rebel flag on the front and the slogan

I’ve seen your X- this here’s mine
I never owned one of these shirts or bumper stickers and never would, but I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t here mention that I did a spit-take the first time I saw one. I laughed even more when at college I witnessed a big argument break out between a black guy in the Malcolm-with-a-gun shirt and a redneck with the “Here’s mine” rebel shirt that fell a bit short of the Lincoln-Douglas debates in eloquence on both sides. But as all hugely successful fads and movie tie-ins do, the X shirts and “by any means necessary” shirts passed from ubiquity (you still see them but now they’re almost nostalgic) as did the “here’s mine” shirts (which I’ve actually had to explain to younger people in recent years what they meant when they’d remark “what does that mean ‘I’ve seen your X’” on a Larry-the-Cable-Guy looking person at the gas station or whatever).
But anyway, that’s why I think the 90s had a mini-renaissance of the rebel flag. And there’s never been a time when it would particularly surprise you to see one on a bumper sticker/shirt/etc., but generally it’s fallen out of favor. I’m relatively certain that if a Spanish sociologist took me hostage and ordered my family and friends to fill my throne room twice with rebel flag T-shirts, cigarette lighters, bumper stickers, shotglasses, and other merchandise all acquired locally before he’d release me they could do so, but it’d take a lot of trips to truck stops and flea markets and I doubt they’d find anything at most of the shopping malls.

Since this thread started I’ve been trying to figure out whether or not I have ever owned a rebel flag [other than in books obviously]. When I was a kid I definitely had a rebel soldier’s cap and we used to play Civil War [just like cowboys and Indians]. When I was in elementary school, and somewhere in the cabinets there’s a coffee mug with the CSA seal on it* [no idea of it’s history- probably picked up by mother at a yard sale as she never saw an unusual 25¢ coffee mug she didn’t like], and I’ve eaten hard-tack with bacon grease and own some Confederate money and a repro- Griswoldville revolver [a Colt clone manufactured for the Confederacy in Griswoldville, Georgia] and a cavalry sabre, but it occurs that I don’t think I’ve ever owned a rebel flag. (My brother did when he was a teenager- a great big one he hung on his bedroom wall because he knew it annoyed our parents [my father because it was historically inaccurate and my mother because it was the symbol of losers], which is ironic because my Bill Clinton-doppelganger and former Reagan-freak brother is today the most politically liberal person I know.)

*The CSA seal was named Uncle Belvedere as memory serves; when he played the banjo they tossed him a fried catfish

**I’m pretty sure I’ve told of the mix-up when a local water board employee accused me of sexual harassment and “implied assault with a probably deadly weapon” [actual charge in their report]- the cavalry sabre is the “probably deadly weapon” from said report.