It will be difficult to stamp out unwanted sex advances, because they (sometimes) work

[RitterSport]

This is an odd thread. If I pester a co-worker about a date over and over again, it creates a hostile work environment, whether she’s my subordinate or not. If I simply ask once, no problem. So, even if that technique sometimes works, it’s not appropriate in a work environment and I should expect to get into trouble.

However, if I’m part of a friend group and I pester a friend about going on a date over and over again, what do you think will happen? Unless I’m actually stalking her, she’ll either go out with me, stop being my friend, or get more and more firm until I get the message. I wouldn’t get into legal trouble by asking a friend to go out for coffee, go on a date, whatever. Unless, of course, it crosses over to stalking, and that should be pretty clear, right?

So, even if nagging sometimes works, it’s never appropriate in a work environment. In a personal environment, it’s annoying but you won’t get into legal trouble.

That’s assuming, of course, you don’t get touchy and grabby. I agree that men will repeatedly ask women out on dates even after being told “no”. That doesn’t mean the men can stalk them, expose themselves to them, or assault them, right?

[iiandyiiii]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Makes little or no difference. Call it X. You suggested doing X, the woman made clear she wasn’t interested in X, and you kept suggesting it. You didn’t offer any quid pro quo, and weren’t in a position of authority over her. But you kept offering X. One example - by no means exclusive - is in the OP cited in my prior post.

What X is makes a huge difference – asking for coffee, whether once or persistently, is massively different than asking for a blowjob. I’m still not sure what example you’re talking about – I read and re-read your OP and didn’t see an example of what X could be.

But I’ll assume you’re talking about something relatively mundane, like asking a coworker for coffee or lunch, and persisting after she declines. If so, this is pretty wildly different than the issues that are currently in the news. AFAICT, not a single public figure is in trouble for repeatedly asking an equal-rank coworker out for coffee or anything like that. The issues in the news are rape, sexual assault, groping, locking subordinates in your office, unwanted deep kissing, etc. Perhaps persistent repeated asking out for lunch or coffee could go beyond just a nuisance to the point of harassment, especially if there’s a power imbalance. But this big giant massive problem in society isn’t due to persistent repeated asking out for a date. It’s due to groping, sexual assault, rape, placing women in situations in which they would reasonably feel fear, etc.

EDIT: Okay, I see the example you mean – you meant in this thread. Doesn’t change the rest of my post.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@iiandyiiii

AFAICT, not a single public figure is in trouble for repeatedly asking an equal-rank coworker out for coffee or anything like that. The issues in the news are rape, sexual assault, groping, locking subordinates in your office, unwanted deep kissing, etc.

The current wave of accusations directed at famous people has sparked a broader discussion of this issue.

[Ulfreida]

@ZonexandScout

OF COURSE it sometimes works. Wouldn’t exist if it didn’t. I mean, spam (the inedible type) wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for that fraction of recipients who respond. Just about everything I find boring, overbearing, idiotic, juvenile, or offensive in modern life exists basically because some of my fellow humans actually DO like it…even if it’s a tiny fraction of them.

You are defining what “works” far too narrowly. From what I can tell, there is a very large cohort of men who sexually harass women for whom the harassment is the reward. They grope, squeeze, leer, whistle, look down women’s blouses and up their skirts and that IS the reward.

Behaviorly speaking the only thing that will stop this ever-present activity of men towards women (yes, I know men think women are exaggerating but in fact they are downplaying it) would be to institute a reaction to it (best if it is instantaneous) which is more unpleasant than the harassment is pleasant. Like being struck with a tiny projectile of indelible ink. Or a small electric shock sufficient to make one drop to one’s knees. Or being attacked by a flock of enraged predatory birds, something with sizable talons. Perhaps ospreys.

Oh, maybe you meant being flirtatious. That’s something which can only be dignified by that name if it is of mutual interest. Which can only be honestly ascertained if both parties can say no and have it be respected.

[ZPG_Zealot]

@Merneith

5. If I were going to speculate without evidence, I would say that men likely are persistent - sometimes to the point of criminal persistence- because they don’t experience any real negative consequences for it.

I have always found it quite interesting that prior the Gay Rights Movement, homosexual men who would presumably have similar levels of desire and attraction for their preferred gender as heterosexual men have for women almost never engaged in sexual harassing behavior of other men, nor do gay men even do so today in environments where homosexual behavior is condemned. Absolutely whatever physical imperative they have to pursue the objects of their sexual desire can and will be controlled if the threat of negative consequences is prominent in their minds.

[iiandyiiii]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

The current wave of accusations directed at famous people has sparked a broader discussion of this issue.

Sure – and nuisance repeated asking for dates will probably be harder to eliminate than groping… but is anyone really trying to eliminate nuisance date-requests from non-imbalanced relationships?

[Morgenstern]

Here is a video reenactment made by the attorney of a woman who accused San Diego Mayor Bob Filner, of sexual harassment. Put yourself in the place of the woman here. What the effing heck is she suppose to do?

And I’m told this shit works?

Guess what, the city paid most of his settlements.

[DrDeth]

@iiandyiiii

Sure – and nuisance repeated asking for dates will probably be harder to eliminate than groping… but is anyone really trying to eliminate nuisance date-requests from non-imbalanced relationships?

Yes, and excatly when does it cross into Harrassment?

Dude: “Hey Sharon, would you like to go out to lunch?”
Sharon “No thanks Bob, I brought my lunch.”
Bob; “Maybe some other time?”
Sharon “Maybe, sure”.

So Bob asks again.
No dice. Same “not today” answer.

And again.

and again.

Sharon never says “Bob, I never want to go out with you, stop asking”.

Bob never gets creepy or impolite but keeps it casual and hopeful.

So, which request crosses the line?

[Morgenstern]

That’s not what the video said.
Can you have lunch with the boss?
He takes her hand as she hands him her card (she works for him)
You realize this is a date, right, as he caresses her hand?
She leaves and goes to the other side of the park.
He follows and put her in the infamous Filner Headlock?
This is all okay in your mind?

[Dangerosa]

@DrDeth

Yes, and excatly when does it cross into Harrassment?

Dude: “Hey Sharon, would you like to go out to lunch?”
Sharon “No thanks Bob, I brought my lunch.”
Bob; “Maybe some other time?”
Sharon “Maybe, sure”.

So Bob asks again.
No dice. Same “not today” answer.

And again.

and again.

Sharon never says “Bob, I never want to go out with you, stop asking”.

Bob never gets creepy or impolite but keeps it casual and hopeful.

So, which request crosses the line?

By the reasonable person standard, I don’t even know that Bob is asking Sharon for a date. Maybe he is just a friendly coworker who notices Sharon eats at her desk a lot and could use a friend. I don’t see how Sharon would have a case, unless she asks him to stop.

As for the “sometimes women want to be chased” thing…hey guys, one of your big complaints about women is that we don’t say what we mean and you don’t understand us. Why the FUCK would you want to date a woman who tells you no the first few times you ask her out because she is playing hard to get? What’s next “where do you want to go for dinner” “I don’t care” Well, not there, and not there and not there…" What do you want for Christmas - oh anything at all, and then gets mad at you for giving her Season 5 of The Walking Dead. Ask once. If the answer is along the lines of “Sorry, I have plans” ask again. If the answer is still no, she knows you are interested - if she is, she’ll find some way to let you know - perhaps by asking you out. There are women who have communications skills - they are way more pleasant to date.

[TruCelt]

Here’s an example of appropriate persistence:

I had dated Bloke for a while, and been friends with him for years. We just weren’t right for each other, and I broke up with him. A few weeks later, he called, declared his undying love for me, and asked if there were any chance? I said, I’m sorry, no. He’s a dear friend, I care about him, but I don’t care for him. He accepted my answer, and didn’t make me feel in any way pursued, or treat me in any way other than friendly.

A few months later, on my birthday, he sent a bouquet of flowers. Not red roses, not a roomful of dozens like makes them swoon in the movies, just a small, thoughtful bouquet that let me know the door was still open. I called and thanked him, in a friendly manner, and when I didn’t try to step through the door, he left it at that.

If he was in town on business, we got together whenever we could fit it in, with never a hint of anything other than friendship. But every year, for twenty-odd years, that bouquet showed up on my birthday, just to let me know the door was open. And because regardless of whether I wanted him in the same way, he just liked knowing the flowers made me smile. Honestly, it made me wish I COULD want him, but I couldn’t even make myself do it, he just wasn’t right for me.

Before he proposed to his now wife, he flew into town and we had dinner. He spent the better part of two hours telling me all about her, and how wonderful it all was, and I was overjoyed for them. Door closed.

We are still friends, I think of him warmly, and we still keep up with each other on social media. We no longer get together “just us” because his wife wouldn’t like it, and I don’t blame her.

And yes, from some guys, those flowers would have been creepy as hell. But he had never tried to push past a boundary I set. He prioritized my happiness, and would never had tried to “break me down” or “wear me out.” And throughout our friendship and short dating life, he had never once made me feel threatened in any way. He respected my ability to know my own feelings, and my right to decide for myself what I wanted. He made sure I felt safe with him,and would have been horrified if he’d done anything to make me feel pressured or threatened.

If my feelings had ever changed, it would have been the romantic story of the century. LOL! His wife is a very lucky woman; he just wasn’t right for me.

[RitterSport]

@DrDeth

Yes, and excatly when does it cross into Harrassment?

Dude: “Hey Sharon, would you like to go out to lunch?”
Sharon “No thanks Bob, I brought my lunch.”
Bob; “Maybe some other time?”
Sharon “Maybe, sure”.

So Bob asks again.
No dice. Same “not today” answer.

And again.

and again.

Sharon never says “Bob, I never want to go out with you, stop asking”.

Bob never gets creepy or impolite but keeps it casual and hopeful.

So, which request crosses the line?

As a male human, I can usually tell from body language whether someone is saying, No, but maybe some other time, or No, stop asking me. So, if I’m picking up the Really, No vibe, I would stop after one or two.

Assuming Dude is missing that particular human skill, then I would say that the non-asshole way to proceed would be to ask two or three times, then leave it at, “Well, if you’re interested in getting away from the desk and grabbing a bite at lunch, just let me know!”

I’m not an HR person, but I have taken countless sexual harassment training sessions and videos. I don’t think that Sharon could really complain unless she said, clearly, “No, Dude, I’m not really interested in getting lunch with you”. Or, “Dude, I don’t really like to go to lunch with people from work”. Or, “No, and your continued asking is making me uncomfortable.” In your hypothetical, she never actually says no, just maybe, so I don’t think he would get into trouble for that. Of course, if this guy is known to persist and chase after many women in the office, this could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back.

Women are not some alien species – do you really have a hard time figuring out whether you’re getting the brush-off?

[John_DiFool]

@nate

It does sometimes work, but more to the point, that sort of behavior is ingrained into males over thousands of generations where that sort of behavior has been an evolutionary success. This doesn’t excuse assault, but men’s instinct for aggressive sexual advances will always exist. It has to be controlled by societal norms and “decency”.

As a male, I find the notion that I am drooling knuckledragger whose base instincts are constantly one female away from spiraling completely out of control offensive. PLENTY of men have no such urges and/or don’t feel the slightest compulsion to give into them, so I take serious issue with your “always” up there as well.

[VinylTurnip]

@iiandyiiii

What X is makes a huge difference – asking for coffee, whether once or persistently, is massively different than asking for a blowjob.

I got your short Americano right here, pal!

[Morgenstern]

Re: the video. Sharon sued. The jury found she WAS sexually harassed, but that there was no sexual battery.
The good news is that Filner resigned. He served a few months of house arrest (for other harassment) and the city was out over a million, last I heard, for settling his cases.

[RTFirefly]

@RitterSport

This is an odd thread. If I pester a co-worker about a date over and over again, it creates a hostile work environment, whether she’s my subordinate or not. If I simply ask once, no problem. So, even if that technique sometimes works, it’s not appropriate in a work environment and I should expect to get into trouble.

However, if I’m part of a friend group and I pester a friend about going on a date over and over again, what do you think will happen? Unless I’m actually stalking her, she’ll either go out with me, stop being my friend, or get more and more firm until I get the message. I wouldn’t get into legal trouble by asking a friend to go out for coffee, go on a date, whatever. Unless, of course, it crosses over to stalking, and that should be pretty clear, right?

So, even if nagging sometimes works, it’s never appropriate in a work environment. In a personal environment, it’s annoying but you won’t get into legal trouble.

That’s assuming, of course, you don’t get touchy and grabby. I agree that men will repeatedly ask women out on dates even after being told “no”. That doesn’t mean the men can stalk them, expose themselves to them, or assault them, right?

Nice summation.

@Fotheringay-Phipps

The current wave of accusations directed at famous people has sparked a broader discussion of this issue.

‘This issue’ being what? What does sexual harassment and assault have to do with being persistent in one’s pursuit of a woman?

There’s less gray area than you think, AFAIAC. If you’re merely persistent in your pursuit, you give her room to decline your advances. You take ‘no’ for an answer. Sexual assault is marked by an absence of these things.

And what RitterSport said about workplace situations.

[Pantastic]

@Starving_Artist

A similar problem exists in the fact that something that might be considered sexual harassment when coming from one guy can be met with smiles or giggles when coming from another. So a guy sees another guy behaving in a way toward women that is smilingly accepted, but when he tries it he winds up in trouble. (As illustrated in this hilarious SNL video clip.)

I know it’s a shocking concept in 2017, but women are actual people who are allowed to decide who they want to bang and who they don’t, they’re not required to screw every guy that asks them out in the name of justice. Women have as much right to decide that they are attracted to one person and not another as you do - or are you going to be OK with ‘taking one for the team’ and banging that guy who likes the way you look in the name of equality. It’s really amazing that dudes will openly complain about having to accept that women are people in 2017, but there you go.

Also, despite what a badly dated SNL clip says, people don’t get fired for asking a co-worker out one time - it actually requires a consistent pattern of repeated advances to get corporate HR to do anything in the vast majority of cases. If a chick tells you she’s not interested, just accept it and move on with your life, don’t whine that she’s being unfair by only wanting to have sex with people that she’s attracted to. If you don’t think that people get to make that decision, I’m sure there’s some dudes or horribly ugly, smelly women out there that find you attractive who you’re being equally mean to by turning down.

So there needs to be some understanding and give and take on both sides. The way things are going now - with instant career destruction resulting from mere accusation - is not the way to go,

What do you mean by ‘the way things are going now’ - do you have any real -world examples to back it up, or just an old SNL skit to link to?

[you_with_the_face]

@DrDeth

Yes, and excatly when does it cross into Harrassment?

Dude: “Hey Sharon, would you like to go out to lunch?”
Sharon “No thanks Bob, I brought my lunch.”
Bob; “Maybe some other time?”
Sharon “Maybe, sure”.

So Bob asks again.
No dice. Same “not today” answer.

And again.

and again.

Sharon never says “Bob, I never want to go out with you, stop asking”.

Bob never gets creepy or impolite but keeps it casual and hopeful.

So, which request crosses the line?

I don’t think Sharon would have legal case for harassment, but the guy’s single-minded blockheadness is a good example of how not to behave if you’re a well-meaning but socially awkward person.

What would make his behavior cross the line into creepiness is if all Sharon is to Bob is a random woman that crosses his path in the hallway. They don’t work together, have mutual interests, or have any real connection to each other except proximity. The circumstance suggest he’s hitting on her, not just looking to network or close a deal or whatever.

Your scenario is eerily similar to a situation I vented about here years ago. I’m too lazy to dig up that thread, but I remember your participation in it. Accusing the guy who pestered me of sexual harassment was something I never did. But creepiness, yes. Because he was hella creepy.

[Morgenstern]

BTW, She did sue Filner and the jury found that she was sexually harassed by what Filner did, but that there was no sexual battery.
Filner since resigned, promising never to again seek political office, and left San Diego with about a million dollars in expenses settling the other cases against him.
That same million would have bought 5 small firetrucks for the city.

ETA, Filner also served a short sentence under house arrest for other things he did to other women.

[asahi]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

Stats not available. But this is based on an enormous amount of empirical evidence.

IMO, there are two reasons why this is so.

Firstly, many women deliberately play hard to get, for a number of reasons. (I believe this is the main thesis of The Rules. Or as the older saying goes “he chased and chased her, until she caught him”.) Not all or possibly even most, and not necessarily you (if you happen to be a woman). But some women. So there will be many instances of women who rejected advances, sometimes repeatedly, but eventually acquiesce, since that’s what they were looking for all along.

Second, even for those women whose rejections are genuine, there are some who will be won over. IMO , one big reason for this is that being desired and wanted is itself a big deal for women, much more so than for men. So you can have a guy who might not meet a woman’s initial standards, but by his very persistence he is giving her something that an ostensibly more desirable guy isn’t offering, in that the persistent guy gives more of that feeling of being intensely wanted. Some - again, not all - women will be won over by this.

Bottom line in all this is that persistence in the face of rejection will sometimes work, and people living in society who observe what works and what doesn’t will notice this. And this means that persisting in the face of rejection will be something that carries a risk, but also offers a potential reward as well. And this will make it much harder to suppress.

Of course, the same is true of most crime, which generally persists in the face of risk of punishment because it offers some potential reward. But the difference is that most crime is the preserve of criminals. People steal because they want the rewards of stealing and are willing to accept the risk of jail time, but people who steal know that they’re stealing, and this puts a damper on that activity by people who are not up to criminal behavior. But the thing about persistent overtures is that in cases such as the above they end up being non-criminal. So even people who wouldn’t stoop to criminal activity will be tempted, because they’re hoping - and possibly convincing themselves - that it will all work out for the best with everyone happy at the end.

Dude, no offense, but some of what you’re writing here just seems…creepy. I can’t speak for other dudes, but speaking as a guy, look, yeah, we’ve all probably made a pass or whatever you wanna call it. Women aren’t going to scream ‘rape’ if you made your move and it turned out to be unwanted. That’s not the point. Where women get freaked out is when it’s already been established that it’s unwanted and yet a guy tries to insist, over the woman’s objection (implicit or otherwise) that ‘she really wants it.’