Whose freedom of expression has been restricted?
I’m not picking a fight.
Do you not understand the concept (even if it does not personally bother you) that SOME people don’t want to be reminded of politics while being entertained?
Again, personally I HATE professional sports. But on the other hand I can understand that some people like it AND they might not be particularly pleased with politics being injected into it.
It’s an American problem or issue anyway. But his, and your, characterization of the issue is political. How important the problem is relative to other problems, political. What are the real roots and solutions to the problem, likewise political. If we go much further on the issue itself, it will turn I’m sure to a debate of those questions, which which soon prove it is political. 
‘Political’ doesn’t mean ‘BS’. Likewise I don’t agree with a view that says we should never know professional athletes’ political opinions (which would be caricature I think of most criticism of CK etc, but some people really think so). But this simply isn’t something which ‘transcends’ politics. That’s just itself a political debating tactic which says ‘you have to agree with me or else you’re beyond the pale’, a common subset of debating tactics nowadays in US public discourse. CK’s opinions which he has at times expounded on beyond the symbolic gesture are political, and debatable.
So it is a real question of whether people need or want to have political expression as part of sports events they attend or watch on TV. Which is somewhat different than whether we should ever know athletes’ politics via other venues. Then there’s the related issue other posts brought up about the particular symbols used to signify the protest. It’s not crazy to interpret a protest against the flag and anthem as too much of a shotgun approach to expressing a particular political opinion. That’s again, a political debate.
Myself, I always try to avoid the national anthem played on televised sporting events because it’s so cringe worthy, nor that rare, when the singers forget the lyrics or otherwise screw up the song. When I attend (though I’ve never been to an NFL game, NBA and MLB many times though not many per year) I stand because if nothing else I think that’s a basic symbol of unity IMO. I wouldn’t flip out if players use it as a venue for protest but I don’t agree with that form of protest and it would in fact affect my decision at the margin to patronize those leagues.
It’s not specifically because I disagree with their politics, but it is politics and I don’t think it belongs in that venue, insofar as my right to have an opinion. I also don’t think it’s a good idea for a president to break tradition (basically) by getting involved and commenting on it, though it’s far from a 1st amendment issue so far IMO.
Yes, I understand that concept; I said as much in my earlier post.
Do you understand that the thought of not being reminded of politics is nearly impossible, since politics is tied up in every aspect of our lives?
Do you agree that having a list of approved places where approved subjects can be discussed is un-American?
So, you are fine with me turning your birthday part into a Trump rally?
You are saying that these football games have turned into rallies becuase of about 2 minutes of pre-game activity?
I forgot to answer this; apologies.
Your analogy is way off. Here’s why: it’s not the party attendees that are protesting. It’s the party honorees.
Players are not there to see the action, they ARE the action.
So in your analogy, yes, I might get upset if I have to listen to your opinions, which I find distasteful, at my birthday party.
In the relevant events today, these teams have invited people to come watch what they do. They have every right to do whatever legally permissible things they want to do there, including a calm, quiet action meant to call attention to a horrible thing that our governments are allowing and perhaps enabling.
You have no right to intrude into my private event and rant, however.
Do you see why your analogy failed? Do you agree that it failed?
Why didn’t you answer the question?
Your rhetorical stance indicates “fight”, over and over again. In this instance, it’s not just that you didn’t answer, but the fact that deliberately quoted it in order to not answer it that gives me this impression.
If 2 minutes of protest is no big deal because the did it for 2 minutes…then it ALSO no big deal if they did NOT do it.
I am so looking forward to this kind of ill thought out protesting in America finally flaming out.
I think that sums up my position as well. AFAIAC, it’s up to the players and the owners to agree on what conduct is acceptable. I don’t form my opinions based on which pro sports athlete stands or does not stand during the national anthem. Maybe it helps spotlight certain issues for folks who are unaware of issues, and maybe not. Let the players and owners decide whether we need to worry about that.
Why do you feel the need to narrow it that much. I never said anything about people being unaware that there is an underlying issue. My point was that issue is not even being talked about because the press just wants to cover who is kneeling and who isn’t and the people it is upsetting (the point of the thread remember) are just seeing the method and not the message. Again I was responding to the assertion of the OP that a protest isn’t worth anything if people aren’t upset. It’s also not worth anything if the message is lost in the noise.
I recently heard a comic say he would dislike Trump a lot more if celebrities would stop telling him how much he should dislike Trump.
I don’t understand your logic at all. You were complaining that what a few players do for a couple of minutes turns the entire game into a rally, so much so that you compare it to the idea of crashing someone else’s birthday party, and turning that into a trump rally. Do you see what happens after their little protest? They play the game. The don’t continue with the protest. If you are still fuming in the 3rd quarter over them kneeling for the anthem, then there is something wrong with you, not with them.
To each their own. Personally, I prefer that the first amendment stick around a bit longer.
No, I don’t agree that it failed. And I’m not going to argue it ad infinitum.
You don’t see my nuances…and it quite possible I do not see your’s.
Let me tell you a story of sorts.
I go to the the occasional thing where the flag is displayed and the national anthem is played. An airshow or two. A political rally. A high school /college ceremony. A military event. Even once in a while a sporting event.
In many cases I do NOT put my hand over my heart. And I often wonder if somebody is going to give me shit for it.
But you know WHY I don’t?
Because if I do, it is often the line between me not crying and crying A LOT.
The flag and the national anthem mean THAT much to me.
The American flag IMO represents a shitload of ideals and goals and accomplishments of perhaps one of the greatest social experiments this world has ever seen…with so many sacrifices of so many very good people who I can not even come close to measuring up too…
I cried a bunch just typing this up.
So, when some 1 percenter who is a 1 percenter doing the most fucking useless thing on the planet pisses on the flag with some half assed ill thought out protest…
Yeah, I get fucking mad.
Thanks for the clarification, Loach.
I don’t think that’s going to be the case because the issue is already past “who is standing and who isn’t” and is about to go full bore into “why is the President trying to stifle free speech”.
And since he already weighed in on it, everyone not standing now is, as I’ve said, effectively protesting the president in addition to decrying the issue of police violence.
Frankly, I don’t think anyone cares who is standing and who isn’t. I don’t see lists of names in any articles, just numbers of people. So the focus has already shifted, IMO.
And I still think Trump picked a fight he can’t win here.
In case anyone is wondering I’m taking a knee in protest because the Giants suck.
I just stumbled across this on one of my favorite subreddits, r/blackpeopletwitter:
What the Flag Code considers “disrespectful”
I have a question for the football fans here. When you are at home watching the game, do you actually lift your ass out of the Lazy Boy and stand for the national anthem? Or do you use that time to take a piss, grab your snacks, or flip through channels?
If you don’t stand up, are you disrespecting the flag? Are you showing lack of patriotism? Or is standing only a thing a person should do when they’re in a crowd, under the gaze of the judgmental thought police?
I really don’t get the pearl clutching. Conservatives keep telling us to stop being so got-damn PC. Minorities have long been lectured to about how stupid we are to be sensitive to perceived slights. “Stop looking for reasons to be butthurt!” the mostly Christian white American male voices tell us right after they troll us. “It’s just words! You’re CHOOSING to be offended.”
So it seems extremely weird for conservatives of all people to be so pissy about people choosing not to stand for the national anthem. Seems to me such pissiness is the epitome of PCness run amok, hypersensitivity, and people CHOOSING to be offended. Me refusing to stand for the national anthem doesn’t do a got-damn thing to you or your feelings. You didn’t write the national anthem. The national anthem isn’t about you. So take your virtue-signaling butthurt and sit your ass down somewhere. I’m sure you can find an American flag paper napkin to wipe your tears with.
You obviously don’t look at the same social media pages I do. Main stream news articles are not the only place people get information.
Oh, don’t get me wrong.
I am totally against people getting shit for voicing their opinions on their OWN time. I think this recent trend of “bad” people must be PUNISHED for opinions expressed outside of work (or even in general) to be a very dangerous trend to society.
But OTOH, I don’t want to go into Starbucks and see some person wearing a Trump T shirt or Hillary WAS robbed either.
I understand that you get emotional about things like this, and that can cause you to overreact.
But one thing to remember is that the flag is actually just a piece of cloth. Having too much attachment to a piece of cloth is not patriotism, it’s obsession over a piece of cloth.
Something to remember is that that piece of cloth actually represents people. The people of your community, the people of other communities, and even the people on the field who are right now kneeling for the national anthem. To get mad at the people that the flag represents, while they are practicing the freedoms that that flag represents, just doesn’t seem to make sense to me. YMMV.
:dubious: