The only time I am moved by national anthems is during World Cup matches (the other football) because its moving in an Eye of the Tiger way and it is appropriate when the sides represent nations. Playing it on the club level is kinda dumb; especially when many of the players (baseball basketball hockey) aren’t even Americans.
Let me try one more time: that football stadium is not your home; it’s theirs. I wouldn’t let a guest do whatever they wanted in my house at my birthday party, and I wouldn’t let them tell me what I could do in my own house at my own party. Why should a football player (or owner) let you tell them what they can and can’t do in their house? You’re free to leave.
But people won’t, most of them, I’ll bet. Because a guy not standing up for 2 minutes before the game just isn’t a big enough deal to them, even if they don’t know why he’s doing it. And once they find out why, I bet some are okay with it since he had a goal in doing so that they agree would be good to reach (our community police forces not beating and killing us).
The American flag, as a symbol, means more than just the meanings that you ascribe to it.
The American flag represent America, not just it’s ideals. As such, to many people it also represents state-sponsored torture, regime building, exploitative businesses, robbery, murder and oppression, etc.
As a culture, we all prefer to focus on the good things but I think it’s wrong to ignore or try to bury the more shameful (or downright repugnant) events in our history. I prefer facts to fiction, even if the fiction is created only by omission.
Do you agree that there have been horrible and shameful things done by the American government, both within our borders and without?
I don’t think Kapaernick’s (sp?) protest was half-assed or useless and I appreciate hearing why you think they are. Certainly people are talking about the issue of police violence, and now we’re also talking about the President trying to use the power of his office to stifle the expression of disapproval with government policies, a tradition that goes back to the very reason for founding this country.
I’m not sure how to describe the feeling I get when I read your posts that say that you love America and the ideals the flag and country stand for but when someone is exercising that right, your first reaction seems to have been to immediately get bent out of shape and begin excoriating the other person for exercising their right when you didn’t want them to, but it is certainly leaving an impression.
There’s still at least one question I’ve asked that you haven’t answered, by the way: Do you agree that having a list of approved places where approved subjects can be discussed is un-American?
Sounds like somebody else besides me is butthurt…
It is their own time. Is there time on the clock? Are there plays being run? No, it is the time they have before the actually start work. The game hasn’t even started yet.
If the QB was holding up a sign that said “Fuck Trump” in the middle of a play, then I would agree, that’s a bit of bad taste, and maybe should be sanctioned. Some players doing something that you wouldn’t even notice if it were not for the triggered right wing media shoving it in your face shouldn’t get you that worked up.
Then you are against the first amendment, since you don’t want to see people expressing their political opinions in public.
You don’t understand what the first amendment is and you don’t understand that a workplace is private property.
So we can “protest” the flag when X bad things happen?
Which bad things?
Police brutality?
Obama Care? Lack of Obama Care?
New EPA rules?
Whatever?
THATS the problem. There is a shitload of stuff to protest about in America. With a little effort I could find a new thing every football game to protests against the flag/national anthem.
IMO it’s a shotgun approach to “protesting” and IMO the worst of the sort. Pick the biggest symbol that represents the BEST of what we all strive for and shit on it.
Baloney.
I’m a diehard “free speech” supporter…probably one of the best/worst you’ve ever met.
But IMO there is also a time and place for all of it.
I have NEVER supported someone here being banned/suspended for what they have said here for that matter. Have you?
The there is no issue, since they know what the underlying protest is for, and thus the fact that people don’t talk about it is irrelevant.
Your concern only makes sense if people don’t know what is being protested. As long as they do, the fact that the only thing being reported is who is sitting out is irrelevant.
I also note you aren’t a bystander here. You are a member of the organization that is being protested. I hope you are doing what you can from behind the blue line to stop the abuse of black people by police officers.
I do not believe at all that people do not know what the protest is about. It’s been reported over and over again. At some point, the people upset about it have to have read those reports to even find it offensive.
I also reject the claim that it is disrespectful. Taking a knee has always been a sign of respect. It is only the bucking of tradition that creates the protest. People get upset about it, but claims about it being disrespectful to the country (You can’t disrespect a flag–it’s just a symbol.) are false.
The only people who can stop this are you stand-up cops who do the right thing, and fix this horrendous issue. Trying to argue away the protest will not stop it.
My daily dose of santimoniosness have been met.
Wait; wait. Are we having the same conversation? Who is protesting the flag?
But yes, in America, AFAIK, people are free to protest against anything they don’t like or in favor of anything they like. I’d like to think that something like a pro-rape protest, for instance, or a march for white supremacists would get very little traction amongst the general public, but yes, we can protest anything. You knew that tho, right? 
Any bad things you want.
Aye.
Yep and yep.
Sure.
Yep, any ddamned thing you don’t like.
Prolly could. Prolly best, in that case, to save such a big stage for something that you feel very strongly about, IMO. Something like people getting killed unnecessarily by state-sponsored armed forces or an oppressed minority being denied basic rights and freedoms, or a government that acts without any repercussions even when their policies harm the citizens. Something like that, right?
As I just indicated, I’m pretty sure that Colin Kapaernick did that, and that this issue was important enough to him that he was willing to lose everything he had to bring attention to it. Ya know, like the founding fathers did.
And yet you hate him for it, and it doesn’t even interrupt the game that you want to watch.
In fact, it disturbs nothing other than your sense of propriety, which is what the protest wants, because their sense of propriety is already offended enough that they were willing to risk everything to tell people about it in whatever way they could that would be impactful.
And you still haven’t answered my question directly. Will you?
Players have the right to protest by taking the knee. The viewing public also have the right to switch off the tv in disgust. Once we realise both these rights are as legitimate as each other it’s up to the owners to sort it out(or not). Im a Trump fan, but I can see he’s stirring it up here. The players would probably have been better putting him on ignore.
I’m upset because the president thinks it’s okay to use his pulpit to not only call for retaliation against people exercising their First Amendment rights, but their employers as well.
I’m upset because the president didn’t say a damn thing when Tom Brady turned down an invitation to the White House, but he’s shitting a brick over black people doing the same thing. We can’t even have a president decent enough to hide his bigotry.
I’m upset because the president didn’t skip a beat to defend weapon-welding thugs threatening genocide against Jews and blacks. But a guy with an afro who decides to take a knee deserves to be fired and be called a “son of a bitch”.
I’m upset because many of the people whining about the disrespect of the American flag are the same people who think the Confederate flag and monuments should remain standing in the public square.
I’m upset that people care more about a silly song and a stupid piece of cloth than state-sanctioned highway robbery and the careless disregard for millions of people in need of affordable health care.
I’m upset that the President has not tweeted his support for Puerto Rico nor made a formal statement about how he intends to help. Why should anyone give a flying fuck about the American flag when millions of its citizens are being left to fight for survival on their own?
I am not afraid to own up to how angry and disappointed I am in the state of this country. But at least I’m angry and disappointed over important things.
Can you say the same?
Too bad for you, I very much do understand the first amendment. He said he doesn’t want to see people wearing such things in public places. Starbucks is a private property, but is still a public accommodation, and still a public space. He does not have the right to say what someone can and cannot wear while they are in a starbucks, but he wishes he had that right. The only way for him to have that right is that the first amendment no longer apply.
So you think that starbucks should be kicking people out for wearing political t-shirts, that’s a different argument. But he doesn’t want to see it, he wants to kick people out of starbucks for wearing t-shirts that offend his delicate sensibilities.
First of all…I don’t give a rat’s ass about football…I’d bet good money I’ve NEVER purposely watched a professional football game.
And no, I don’t hate the big K.
Also, I’m not a fan of his career being ruined because of his protest.
But I do maintain my right to think he was an idiot with a poorly thought out form of protest (much less what I think he is protesting is mostly a bunch of crap).
Yeah, where you don’t have to see it. If you can’t walk into a starbucks with a person at a table wearing a pro-trump/anti-trump or whatever t-shirt, then you do not support free speech.
Spammers, socks, and obvious trolls, sure. A serious poster who disagrees with me, not at all. Do you have a point here?
Yep.
Beep beep beep.
Back up the free speech truck here.
Some random dick who happens to be at Starbucks wearing some half assed half thought out political viewpoint on their shirt.
Welcome to America !
Some employee doing the same?
Not so much…
Trump would have been better doing his job, not “stirring it up”.
After all, it’s not like millions of Americans are trying to put their lives together after one of the worst natural disasters in living memory or anything. I seriously doubt people in Houston and Puerto Rico are losing sleep over Kaeparnick’s beef with the national anthem right now. What’s wrong with the President that he doesn’t understand this?
Maybe Trump supporters need to stop being his fan and start holding him accountable for a change.
He said Starbucks employees. Big difference.
If he came out against the guy at the table next to you wearing Klan robes, would you be against free speech?
We aren’t talking about your right to think he was an idiot; so far as I know, no one has put forth the proposition that you should suffer at all for that.
But our president is actively campaigning, now with the help of his Cabinet, to make that happen. And yet he did not campaign for any white supremacists to lose their jobs for expressing their thoughts and desires.
And wait: you think police brutality and unnecessary killings of black people is not an issue and is “mostly a bunch of crap”?
I note again that you have not answered my question. This and your continuing tone contribute further to my impression of you.