Corrado, thanks a lot. Thanks to your Republican Lifestyle Description, my neighbours 3 year old daughter has woken up and is crying her lungs out 
Excuse me:
If you will stop and consider, you will realize that the question that Esprix asked that inspired John Corrado’s excellent post was actually addressed at me!
John Corrado poached my question before I had the chance to answer it. As a matter of fact I was working on a very similar but even more humorous post when I was preempted by Mr. Corrado’s foul treachery.
SO really all the Kudos and the compliments you’ve been giving him actually belong to me.
Never has such a betrayal occured within the Republican ranks since Pat Buchanan left for the Reform Party.
I demand recompense, and I swear by the Holy Potatoe of Danforth that it will be mine!
John Corrado. I challenge you to a Roshambo!
I respectfully refer you to the following:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=39965
Are you kidding? Have you ever even SEEN the Brady Bunch!
I did see this gorgeous paisley material at Joanne Fabrics…it would make a GORGEOUS Regency dress.
As for the whole, no catholic, no irish, lifestyle, you’ve got to be kidding me. Or the Russian lifestyle. Different customs. Different cultures. Hell, there are usually different lifestyles for many ethinicities…(Such as the Christmas tradition of oplatki for us Polacks…)
Hey, being a psycho-killer isn’t just an optional lifestlye for me. I was born to it.
In fact, I think I was born to hate homosexuals most of all. On that note, I’m going to go beat up some lesbians.
Look whose name is too long by seven letters.
This is a response to something posted in the Fire Island thread linked to above, to which for content reasons I am responding in the Pit.
I’m not an American, but that wasn’t your question. It may have been amusing (I didn’t see the episode in question), but you referring to your critics as Nazis isn’t. That’s a polemic attack in vicious and disproportionate terms, not a humorous jibe.
I am not the one running around insisting on calling people what they have repeatedly told you they find insulting and degrading.
This seems to be based around your own definition of “reasonable-minded”. Many gay people on this board have told you many times that we do not like to be told we have a lifestyle, nor do we appreciate having you call us queer or faggots, whether we call ourselves this.
It has nothing to do with wilful interpretation. I have enough people genuinely on my case without having to create more, and I can accept that someone might accidentally step on my toes language-wise. However, when someone continues to do this despite extensive advice and explanations, on many separate occasions, I expect that they have something in for me and/or people like me, and I react accordingly.
I am sick and tired of having to justify my use of common and acceptable terms to people who are deliberately going out of their way to misinterpret them.
If after having been told what we do and don’t consider insulting, you continue to use those terms, it’s a little disingenuous of you to express surprise that we would be insulted that you would use these expressions. (“What? Don’t tell me that still insults you?!”)
Whoops. The paragraph beginning “I am sick and tired…” was written by Scylla, not me. It should have been within quote tags.
Hastur, if you don’t like that phrase, I won’t use it (never have, never will). After enough people stop using it, the hatemongers will come up with another one, and I’ll make sure not to use that one also. SuaSponte pointed out that the connotation overwhelms the denotation. This has to do with the intent of the speaker, and if the speaker is hate-filled, so will be that person’s words.
I heard a little bit of Al Gore speaking to a group of people last night. I don’t have the exact quote, but it was something like “Why can’t people just leave other people alone?” I can’t remember if he used the lifestyle phrase, but if he did, I think his intentions were good.
foolsguinea, those remarks were not funny - not even close. Very, very poor taste.
Esprix
Scylla, as I said in the above-linked thread, you can use whatever words you want in whatever intent you want, but we’re trying to make you aware that the phrase “the gay lifestyle” is an emotionally- and politically-charged phrase that people will, at first blush, misrepresent. Do you want to spend your time communicating clearly or clearing up miscommunications?
And when you say things like:
and
I’m getting the impression that you still don’t understand that the “common and acceptable” use of the phrase “the gay lifestyle” is derogatory. You can be as technically correct as you like, but know that you’re going to offend a lot of people if you stick to your guns. After that, the choice is entirely yours.
Esprix
Esprix:
Again, I do not deliberately offend and I won’t use a term that I know is objectionable.
What IS objectionable though seems to change and become rather arbitrary.
If I don’t keep up and I make a mistake my words can be twisted, like Matt tried to do with “Nazi.”
I do not like this.
Esprix:
One more thing. I am not well-versed in gay culture. THis is why I found your Gay Guy thread so enlightening and interesting. I sincerely admire your attitude, openness, and the discretion with which you’ve run it.
But these secret code words that I am not supposed to say REALLY SCARE ME! I would have NEVER though there was anything offensive about “Gay lifestyle.”
I picture myself walking into a gay deli and ordering a tuna sandwich.
"Did he say “TUNA?” somebody shouts.
Next thing you know I’m running down the street chased by a bunch of irate people.
Farfetched? Maybe, but you get the idea. It happened with Rudy. It happened with me and Mattmcl with Nazi, and now I’m some kind of bigot not because I don’t want to go along, but because I think the trend is dangerous and ultimately without meaning.
Even matt said that saying something derogatory without knowing it is or intending it to be is perfectly acceptable - the first time, if it’s an honest mistake. At that point the person who was offended is going to let you know that you did so. The key is what you do the next time.
So now that you know, are you going to continue to use the phrase, knowing the reaction you’re going to get?
Esprix
Esprix:
Out of personal respect for you, I would choose not to use either term.
Your stance on this issue has been reasonable, polite, thoughtful, and deserves respect.
You’re kind of the minority though.
Oh my, I think I’m gay! Oh wait, I don’t have a cat.
::wipes brow:: Whew
Well, I’m with Esprix on that one. And for someone who says you only know a couple gay people, it’s interesting that you know how we think.
Your example with the Harlem Biker or whatever it was is pretty weak. Didja notice that you had to add “Brooklyn” to “Irish” to get your point across? Because you probably realize that comparing, say, a Boston Irish man with a female Irish woman actually living Ireland would be pretty stupid, as they’d have completely different lifestyles unrelated to their being Irish, right? Try it this way:
“Take somebody who is leading a gay lifestyle and drop them into a formal black tie dinner, and tell me that these differences won’t be apparent.”
Uh, probably not.
“Take your average Irishmen, and set him next to some African, and tell me you can’t make a valid generalization.”
I could make a generalization, but that would be wrong and stupid
Is there a Brooklyn lifestyle? Probably not. A Queens Greek lifestyle? Yes. Gay Chelsea lifestyle? Yes. Heterosexual lifestyle? Nope. Gay lifestyle? Nope. Sorry.
And your real estate story is cute, and possibly true, but the broker said “follow the gays” not “follow the gay lifestyle” and even if he did it refers to the “urban gay lifestyle” - see how you need an extra modifier in there?
None of the children are out fixing up old barns and drawing in the heteros, as far as I can tell, no matter what Aunt Martha might be saying.
The only commonalities amongst gay men that have actually been scientifically proven are that we are smarter, make more money, and have larger penises. Anything beyond that is NOT part of the gay lifestyle.
Davis:
Thanks for responding. You make a good point. an additional modifier firms thing up, doesn’t it?
The gay real estate phenemenom is pretty well-documented. I could probably find a cite if you like.
At least now you’ve given me a reason to thank God for my lack of intelligence and small penis.
Note: Last sentence is a joke.
This debate over the use of the term “gay lifestyle” seems largely over for the moment, but I would still like to put in my two cents, if that’s okay.
Sometimes innocuous phrases or terms become charged with strategic meaning and become the focus of a key battle in the struggle between two opposing forces, just as a little no-name hill in the middle of nowhere can become the site of the fiercest battle of a war by virtue of its strategic importance. Most people would agree that this is the case with a term like “nigger.” Phonetically it is meaningless, but across time the word has come to have a strategic importance in the race debate like few other words before or since.
So what about “gay lifestyle”? I’m straight myself, but a member of my family is gay and I’ve done some reading on the subject. Based on my reading I would agree with the gay community that the term “gay lifestyle” has vital strategic importance and is a battle that has to be fought. Anti-gay groups routinely use the term as a stereotype which allows them to group all gays and lesbians of any category, community, or class into a single mythical population that is characterized and epitomized by its most outrageous members. The phrase is routinely and consciously used by anti-gay groups to create an “us vs. them” schism and reinforce the crudest stereotypes. The gay community has reacted to this by protesting the use of this term, and I think they’re justified in doing so. Furthermore, use of this term by the straight community does the gay community real harm, insofar as it reinforces and legitimizes an important weapon used against gays and lesbians by people who have chosen to harass the gay community. In other words, I agree that use of “gay lifestyle” is roughly equivalent to use of the term “nigger.”
Unfortunately, most people in the straight community are ignorant of the ongoing struggle over this term, and they see no particular harm in using this seemingly inoffensive phrase. So I guess the burden is on the gay and lesbian community to educate the straight community on the harm of this phrase. Preferably this should be done in a non-antagonistic, educational way. Some links to anti-gay sites abusing the term might help–for example, some of those homophobic family research council (or whatever it is called) sites.
As for charges of “language nazis” and “PC nazis”: I will agree that political correctness has its fanatics and abusers just like any group, and that it’s fair for the rest of us to question the outlawing of a word or a term. In other words, it’s fair for members of the larger community to want to examine each case separately and decide for themselves. As for my own input on this issue, however, I return to the argument I made in the first couple paragraphs of this post: The term “gay lifestyle” has become a weapon with which homophobes are bludgeoning the gay community, and I support the gay community’s efforts to educate the general public on the harmfulness of this particular term.
To clarify:
…Furthermore, use of this term by the rest of the straight community (i.e., those who are basically non-homophobic) does the gay community real harm, insofar as it reinforces and legitimizes an important weapon used against gays and lesbians by people who have chosen to harass the gay community…