(bolding mine)
I’m curious as to why you don’t ask. If you think going dutch is a dating best practice that doesn’t suggest cheapness on your part, it should be easy enough for you to say “Wanna split?”
[quote=“treis, post:99, topic:552448”]
And this, to me, is where the problem lies. I always want to do the “right” thing, but in this case I still haven’t figured out what the “right” thing is. I know the men I’ve talked to about this who are in my age group (45+) prefer that the person who asked do the paying, and if they ask a woman on a date and she offers to pay half when the check comes, they tend to see that as a signal that she isn’t interested in them and doesn’t want another date. If I like a man, I don’t want to send a signal that I’m cheap or entitled, nor do I want to send a signal that I’m not interested. I rarely date anymore, though, so it’s fairly moot. And when I do go out with a man, it’s usually drinks or something–more casual–so that I could casually say, “okay, you’ve got this round, I’ve got the next one” or something. That still doesn’t solve the awkward dinner check problem.
shrug There are many things that I expect but are uncomfortable with asking for. The arrival of the check on the first date isn’t the appropriate time to have a discussion about going Dutch.
Ah, true, true.
The point is that if I treat her too much like a buddy, rather than like a wife, she doesn’t like it. And treating her like a wife includes acknowledging that she’s a woman, not a man.
Yeah, and you’d probably insist on really ritzy amenities, too, such as hot water and a real mattress to sleep on. Gold digger!
I never liked the idea of being a provider – that’s a one-way relationship. I want to be a partner.
I disagree with this quite vehemently.
To me, “sexism” is treating women in some way that indicates you regard them as inferior to men. People do things all the time just because the person in question is a woman. Women get call Miz, Miss or Mrs. because they’re women. Boy are taught not to hit girls in the stomach because as females it could cause damage to their ovaries. Men usually do the heavy lifing in the workplace because the women can’t do it. And because women often have what men want, which is attractiveness, sex appeal, or some other quality that makes men want to investigate the possibility of a relationship with them, men are quite naturally going to want to be on their best behavior and do considerate things like holding doors, sending flowers, and letting them off elevators first, and this behavior then tends to spread out and influence the way men treat women in general.
The notion that there should be absolutely no difference in the way the two sexes interact with or each other is utter nonsense, and flies directly in the face of not only human nature, but human nature as it quite rightly should be. Some elements of human nature, like the urge to steal or commit murder, should be repressed. But we’re talking about holding doors and paying for drinks here, not repressing murderous urges, and the fact that this type of behavior is not only still going on, but appears actually to be happening more and more as the loonacy of early-seventies feminism recedes, shows that this is a type of human behavior that people of both sexes find to be pleasant and mutually beneficial, and I don’t think it’s going away anytime soon.
You have got to be joking.
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Why do you think I’m joking?
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What about the rest of what I said? Am I to take it that you are in agreement with the exception of this minor detail?
- Because it’s wrong on so many levels that it’s difficult to know where to begin
- a. Persons regardless of their gender should be taught not to hit anyone in the stomach, because you could hurt that person regardless of his or her gender
- b. People should not be taught that it’s okay to hit some people regardless of the precise location of the target. A blow to any part of anyone’s body has the potential of causing serious long-term damage.
- c. The justification given is anatomically suspect.
- No, you may not assume that I agree with the rest. I have not yet chosen to comment on it.
Moderator note
Alice The Goon, that’s enough. The contempt for ACM you show is tantamount to a personal insult in my book.
Besides, even if ACM doesn’t measure up, in your estimation, to the standard of adulthood, that would be largely irrelevant. You can’t deny that the traditional expectation of who pays begins at the earliest stages of teenage dating.
At 41, I feel like I’m already old and old-fashioned based on some of the other threads about group sex and things I’ve been reading lately.
While I have been married for more than a decade now, when I was dating, it was always expected that the man paid, even if the woman was the one asking you out. At least, you had to offer to pay and have the woman insist on picking it up. One exception might be in the event I was asked out to an expensive show (i.e. like a play where tickets might be over $100 each), in which case the woman always did me the courtesy of either volunteering up front to pay for both of us, or insist on paying for her ticket. More often than not, though, these were ‘just friends’ women and not someone I was romantic with.
Personally, the idea of a woman making more than me and insisting on paying for both of us is a major turn-on for me. I’d say part of the reason I married my wife is because she showed a lot more interest than some of the other woman I was dating by insisting to pick up the bill, and I have always made about 1/3 more than her.
So you expect her to say “Wanna split?” but you find it too uncomfortable to say it yourself?
Sorry, but that’s bizarre. Let’s say you invite a woman to go out with you and she accepts your invitation. The check arrives and neither one of you immediately acknowledge it. So you’re going to view her with contempt if she doesn’t offer to pay? Nevermind the fact that she may be perfectly willing to pay if you’d only ask. She’s probably working off the assumption that the check is yours because you asked her out. 99% of the time that’s how it plays out.
You still haven’t explained what’s hard about offering to split the bill, but I think the reason you find it uncomfortable is because it is not even a friendly gesture, let alone a romantic one. It’s a defensive one. If a guy asked me out and then sat back when the check arrived, I’d point at it and ask him what he’d like to do with the bill. Then I’d listen to his answer for signs that he thinking paying for dinner is equivalent to engaging in a power struggle.
The typical dance is (1) Bill is handed to me or I grab it, (2) she says “let me pay half”, and (3) I say she can get the movies/next time. If she beats me to step (1) then the dance is reversed.
Which is exactly why I don’t say lets split it when the bill comes and she doesn’t offer. As many people have said in this thread, perhaps she just thinks I will be upset if she offers to pay. And perhaps she will think I am a cheapskate if I say “lets split it”, even if she has every intention of paying for the next event. When the bill come isn’t the right time to discuss it for these reasons because it may be awkward or give an unwanted impression.
It’s not like I permanently delete the phone number of any girl who doesn’t offer to pay. It’s just that I prefer them to offer to split at the first bill. IMHO it sets the tone of the relationship from the beginning, and prolongs a potentially awkward who pays for what conversation until things get much more serious.
I think that about sums it up. You say you’re looking for an equal, but I go into a date assuming we’re equals, I don’t decide it based on who pays the bill. If you’re already concerned, on a first date, about what’s ‘fair’ or not being taken advantage of, well… let’s just say I’ve never met anyone who was that tight with their money, and yet generous with their soul.
A preference is not the same thing as an expectation. If she offers to pay for a date that you initiated, she’s making a nice gesture. But on the basis of etiquette, it’s purely optional. In other words, she’s not being discourteous for not volunteering to pick up the check and splitting in half.
But like you said, different strokes for different folks. Everyone is free to judge people how they see fit. If it turns you off when a woman doesn’t offer to split the check on a first date, I can understand that. It could be a indicator that she’s self-entitled and selfish. A man who grudgingly pays my way is indicating the same thing to me.
I’m the same way.
Who spends the most money on whom doesn’t determine whether two people are equals in a relationship. This goes back to pbbth post. There are plenty of nice gestures that people do in the context of a relationship that have zero monetary cost. My ex-boyfriend used to scrap the ice and snow off of my car in the morning, without me even having to ask. Where does that fall on the balance sheet, if I compare that against all the times I bought him clothes?
Being generous is a nice gesture, just like any other. I don’t even know what income has to do with it. If a guy asks me out, whether or not he should pick up the bill has nothing to do with our income differential.
The point is that paying for dates is a “nice gesture” that is expected from men. It’s sort of like an apology- no meaning when it’s mandated.
Your boyfriend didn’t scrape ice off your car because he was a male, he did it because he felt like doing something nice for you. You didn’t pay for your boyfriend’s clothes because you’re a female, you did it because you wanted to give him a gift or whatever.
Your analogy makes no sense unless you’re saying that men are mandated to ask women out on dates. It’s to their advantage to do so if they want a girlfriend, but it’s not mandatory in the slightest.
With more and more women rising to the challenge of asking the fellas out, the expectation the man always pays is definitely falling by the wayside. But I see this having less to do with women making more money than men, and more to do with women realizing that certain modes of thinking are antiquated and likely to backfire on them later when the guy starts treating her like a prostitute.