ISTR from the books that Denethor had actually given orders that the Ring be found and brought to him if at all possible. No?
Nope. While the Stewards likely knew what the ruling ring was they had no expectation of every finding it again. In fact in the book Boromir is surprised that Isildur took the ring and went North - though his father may have known.
Remember guys - any info about what does or does not happen to Eowyn, Gandalf, or any of the other characters is a SPOILER for Choie.
Just a reminder.
No, he’s Lupin, Jr. You’re thinking of his son, Lupin III.
Yeah, one of the things I remember from when I read the books a billion years ago was that this Strider guy was pretty greasy.
Is this an oblique reference to the Bakshi version (where Aragorn was voiced by John Hurt)? If so…well played, sir.
Oh, and choie, don’t feel bad about this–I’ve done much worse. 
When I first read the books, I completely conflated Sauron and Sauruman until I was a good bit of the way through the trilogy. (Which, as I’m sure you’ll appreciate, made things somewhat confusing.)
Seriously, GG Tolkein, way to make two of your main bad guys have almost identical names.
Ah, thanks, I was away from my books when I answered that, and misremembered.
As for the Forces of Good and Evil (with capital letters), a brief run-down of Tolkien’s cosmology and pantheon:
In the Beginning, there was Eru Illuvatar, the One. He created beings called the Ainur (“Blessed Ones”), and they coöperated with Him in the creation of the World. The most powerful of the Ainur was one called Melkor, who, along with a few others, thought he could do a better job of the whole Creation thing than Eru. He rebelled, but rather than just giving him a righteous smackdown, Eru actually incorporated his dissonance into His own Music, and from it shaped something better even than it was before.
Once the World was created, some of the Ainur (including Melkor and his followers, but also a larger number of good ones) decided to enter into it, to further guide its shaping and development. The most powerful of these beings are referred to as the Valar (“Powerful ones”), while the rest are called Maiar (“Great ones”). The Valar correspond roughly to what polytheistic cultures would consider gods, though (except for Melkor) none of them claim that title for themselves. The leader of the Valar is Manwë, Lord of Winds, who doesn’t really show up in the trilogy, and they also include Melkor (by this time re-named “Morgoth”), and Elbereth, Queen of the Stars, about whom the elves sing. The Maiar, meanwhile, include Sauron, Morgoth’s chief servant, the Balrogs (of which only one is known to have survived into the Third Age), all of the wizards, and Melian, ancestress of Aragorn and Elrond.
In the First Age, told of in the Silmarillion, Morgoth was the primary villain, and the rest of the Valar eventually intervened to capture him and exile him beyond the bounds of the World, but their doing so was cataclysmic. That left Sauron (most powerful of the Maiar) as the meanest fellow left in Middle Earth. Not wanting to wreck the world any more than they already had, the Valar sent five Maiar, who voluntarily accepted restrictions on their power, to Middle Earth, to guide and aid the people. Of these five, Saruman became corrupted with lust for power, Radagast grew so enamored of animals that he pretty much forgot about the people he was supposed to be helping, and almost nothing is known of what happened to the two Blue Wizards, leaving only Gandalf still on the scene and fighting the good fight. So in that sense, he’s the counterpart to Sauron, but he’s not nearly powerful enough to go up against him directly (though he is wiser). After that whole unpleasantness with the Balrog, he was sent back with less restrictions on his power, so he could take a more active role in things, but even so, he couldn’t go it alone.
One of the old Iron Crown Enterprise’s pen & paper RPG’s tried to explain that Gandalf is restricted (and so should “good” aligned player-characters) because overuse and over reliance of “magic” will bring unintended, potentially negative, consequences. Similar to, but maybe not as actively malignant, as using the One Ring.
Thank you. Bakshi may not have gotten much right, but he was pretty much spot in the depiction of Strider. Too bad about the mini-dress.
choie, just to head you off at the pass, do not feel stupid about not getting any of this from the movie. It’s not there, and it’s barely hinted at in the main part of the book, with a few more sparse details in the appendices.
The “true” title of the book (plus “The Hobbit”) as given by Frodo is “THE DOWNFALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND THE RETURN OF THE KING (as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and Frodo of the Shire, supplemented by the accounts of their friends and the learning of the Wise.)”(Nothing that hasn’t been spoiled before, just being abundantly cautious this time. The key phrase was “as seen by the Little People”.)
A central conceit of the book is that it was written by people without a full understanding of what was going around them. That makes their perseverance in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds more heroic. I think it also makes it easier to identify with the people in this story than with characters in books where mortals know too much about the world beyond or have face-to-face dealings with gods or godlike beings.
For choie’s sake (and there’s no real spoilers here)…
Radagast is a non-entity in the movies, and isn’t much more than a passing reference in the novels.
The other two wizards aren’t even named in the LotR books. In other writings, Tolkien names them (Alatar and Pallando), and states that they had headed into other regions (East and / or South) to do their work.
Hey all. I just wanted to (very belatedly) thank everyone for the fascinating and edifying discussion so far. I really appreciate your taking the time to enlighten me without making me feel too ignorant for missing some of this stuff. The info on Elrond’s [del]curse[/del] prediction relating to Aragorn/Arwen was especially clarifying.
I just re-watched TTT and I did catch some things I missed, but also have some more questions, if I haven’t already tried all y’all’s patience…?
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I can’t believe I didn’t ask this before: if it’s not spoiling anything from ROTK, can you explain the difference between “Gandalf the Grey” and “Gandalf the White”? Obviously a White Wizard is the top of the heap, since Sarumen is one, and the amount of reverence shown Gandalf when he arrived (seemingly still “Gandalf the Grey”) vs. after he threw off the robes in the Rohan King’s throne room is palpably different. Is it something that requires a death / rebirth transformation? If so, is that how Sarumen got his, uh, promotion?
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Plot hole or just me being nitpicky: Seems to me there’s a rather obvious continuity or logic gap in the scenes when Gandalf reveals himself in the forest to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. Aragorn says “hiya Gandalf” and G. is all, “Gandalf…?? Why, yes, that was what I was called…Gandalf the Grey!” in wonderment, as if it’s a name he’s not heard in a long time…a long time. (Sorry, channelling Alec Guinness there.) HOWEVER. He’s also just said that he ran into Merry and Pippin earlier. Surely when Gandalf revealed himself to M & P, the hobbitseses called him by his name. In the very next scene, the Ent is carrying Merry & Pippin and refers to Gandalf. So the treedude knew it, too. Shouldn’t they all have used his name when speaking to him? Weird. This struck me the first time I watched the film, but afterwards I thought, “oh, choie, you probably just missed something as is your wont.” But seeing it again, it’s even more obvious.
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An interesting, miniscule actor/director decision that I found fascinating: When Sarumen is addressing the amassed army before they attack Helm’s Deep – with Grima Wormtongue at his side – he tells the troops, “leave no one alive.” After that, there’s a brief glimpse of Grima who, as he turns away, has a tear falling from one eye. It’s not very obvious at all; doesn’t seem like Jackson was highlighting this seemingly out-of-character reaction, but I caught it since I really like Brad Dourif and was paying close attention. What do we make of this? Is he having a tiny moment of regret (fleeting, no doubt) because of Eowyn? It’s a nice detail either way and allows one of the baddies at least a hint of some mixed feelings.
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Why did the orcs capture Merry and Pippin in the first place, rather than killing 'em? Obviously these two are protected by Plot Armor, but is there another reason they were kidnapped rather than sliced up for halfling stew? It’s not as if the orcs couldn’t tell which hobbit had the Ring.
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Will I learn more in ROTK about the apparent dual personality deal that SmeaGollum has, i.e. whatever it is that makes him talk to himself? Or is it simply a personification of the evil seductive power of the Ring? I must again express my admiration of both Andy Serkis and the CGI team, because there isn’t one moment where I thought, “okay, this is not a living, thinking, feeling creature on my screen, it’s just computer animation.” Just an astonishing achievement.
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Not a question, just an observation: I must absolve myself for not grokking how Faramir knew of his brother’s death, because he totes doesn’t say a darn thing about it! I did do a little fast-forwarding in this go-round but I know I didn’t skip any Faramir sections. (Teh pretty, y’know… :D)
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Silly credits stuff: Is this Enya singing at the end here? 'Cause wow, she sucks. Also: why in the name of Bonaparte’s balls did Liv Tyler get a higher credit than Viggo M.? (I don’t mean in the alphabetical cast listing, but in the credits prior to that. Elijah Wood was first, then Ian McKellan, which I understand; but Liv comes out of nowhere. Not only is she barely in the film, but she’s also not exactly a huge star. The heck? She must’ve had an awesome agent!
I think that’s it for now. Oh, one note for the gallant well he’s back: thanks for keeping an eye out for spoilers! And also, on your advice I have not watched the extras yet. I can wait for after seeing ROTK. 
I’m no LOTR expert, so I don’t think I can adequately explain your questions about Gandalf, but I can address a few other questions.
Saruman explicitly instructed his orcs (the Uruk Hai) to capture any halflings they come across and bring them directly to him. The orcs didn’t know who Merry and Pippin were, and they don’t know who the ringbearer is. They just know to bring any hobbits they find to Saruman.
Most definitely. This is directly addressed in ROTK, and much of Smeagol/Gollum’s backstory is told.
Yeah, it’s covered in the extended edition, but not the theatrical release.
Saruman was the original white wizard and the chief of the order. In the book, he renames himself Saruman of Many Colors after turning from his mission of aiding and encouraging the people of Middle-earth to his ambition of dominating them. After Gandalf falls in battle with the Balrog, he is sent back to fill the role Saruman has abandoned.
Emiliana Torrini.
Perhaps. She also had a more active role at one point in the film’s production, fighting in the battle at Helm’s Deep.
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:: modestly ::
Yeah, I get that a lot.
Yeah, Gandalf’s amnesia does seem to come & go, although we don’t know exactly what was said in the meeting between G and M & P.
I’m not sure if the color upgrade to White is completely necessary and significant; ie, does the head wizard have to wear white? Dunno. But just to make it clear: The old Gandalf flat-out died; this is Gandalf 2.0. He’s back, with upgraded powers, and “forgot much that he once knew, and remembered much that he had forgotten.”
Hey Choie, missed ya. FWIW, here are my thoughts on some of your questions –
-yes, you learn more about Smeagol/Gollum in the next film, tho I think he had some of his best scenes in this one.
-The orcs had been ordered to bring Any hobbits back alive. These orcs knew nothing of the ring or who had it. They were just minions.
-The song at the end, well it’s a matter of taste. I liked it, and the singer. So moody.
-I don’t think you’ll regret waiting for the behind-the-scenes stuff.
-I love that little tear that you see on Grima’s face. It’s the little things that really add to these movies.
Onward to Return of the King!
Not at all. I love this stuff.
Well, the White Wizard is, essentially, as you put it “the top of the heap”. Essentially, Gandalf has been…promoted. Which bodes poorly for Saruman. It doesn’t -require- any rebirth stuff, that’s just how things happen to go this time.
No, again, this is one of those sequences that got muddled in the film. They tried too hard to play up the “Is it Gandalf… or is it Saruman!?” angle in several scenes. In the book, while Gandalf has been wandering around Fangorn Forest a bit, his conversation with Aragorn and Co is the first chat he’s had with anyone mortal since coming back. (He apparently hung around Lorien for a bit, but they all probably just called him “Mithrandir”). He has -seen- Merry and Pippin (and Treebeard) but they didn’t see him (Treebeard -might- have). Definitely no chit chat has taken place. The reunion between Gandalf and the hobbits happens after the ents trash Isengard.
Maybe. It’s either “Holy hell. I’ve just unleashed death on my own race.” or “OMG! Saruman is SO AWESOME! I am moved to tears!” That’s up to the audience, since that scene doesn’t appear in the book.
Why do you presume the orcs could tell which hobbit had the ring? They’re not Nazgul, they can’t sense it. Or are you saying they could’ve searched them? If that’s the question, the answer is “Saruman told them not to.” Because he doesn’t really trust his orcs with finding and carrying the Most Powerful Magic Artifact in Arda. Orcs, not being famous for their strength of will or discipline, would probably have rapidly come to blows over the ring, and whoever ended up with it probably would’ve run off. So instead, Saruman sends his orcs to capture and bring back any halflings they can get their hands on.
It’s probably best to the watch RotK before you worry too much about this. But suffice it to say he’s been by himself for a LONG TIME.
Hrm? I -know- there’s a scene with him seeing Boromir in the boat in one of the films. It -could- be RotK, but I coulda sworn it was extended TT.
No. Enya sings the credits song for Fellowship, but it’s someone else for TT. I forget who.
The “awesome agent” theory is as good as any, but honestly, prior to these films, she was a bigger name. Most folks had never even -heard- of Viggo before.
Yup, Grima totally has a jones for Eowyn. I don’t have my books with me, but I seem to remember that Saruman had promised Grima that he could have Eowyn after Saruman conquered Rohan.
As others had said, Saruman told the orcs to bring him any hobbits – unmolested. The orcs didn’t know why, or that one hobbit might have the Ring.
Jackson wanted Bjork to do that song, but she was either unwilling or unavailable. IIRC, she is the one who suggested the woman who wound up doing it. And, yes, it’s meant to be odd-sounding; it’s “Gollum’s Song.” Just wait until you hear the song at the end of RotK.
Wasn’t there even a line (probably in Fellowship?) where Saruman says of the Hobbits “Bring them to me alive… and unspoiled. Kill the others.”
And “unspoiled” in this case doesn’t mean “don’t tell them anything about the next film” but rather “no looting and pillaging, 'cause I want their stuff.”
That pretty much covers it for me.
There was. Sauruman didn’t know which hobbit had the ring; he only knew that it was travelling south.
Here the movies muddied up Sauruman’s motivation. In the book Sauruman is trying to play the various sides off against each other hoping to gather the ring to himself so he can supplant Sauron. This is why, previous to the book, he stalls the elves and wizards from moving against Sauron. He hoped that the ring would emerge from hiding if Sauron was allowed to recover to a degree. Then he would capture it for himself and “study” it for the benefit of all…at least until he learned to master it.