I've never read LOTR. Will I like the movie(s)?

[choie]

@TWDuke

Saruman was the original white wizard and the chief of the order. In the book, he renames himself Saruman of Many Colors after turning from his mission of aiding and encouraging the people of Middle-earth to his ambition of dominating them. After Gandalf falls in battle with the Balrog, he is sent back to fill the role Saruman has abandoned.

Cool. Are there wizards of other colors besides white & grey?

Emiliana Torrini.

Thank God for that. I’d thought Enya was better than that. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the song itself. But the singer … oy.

Perhaps. She also had a more active role at one point in the film’s production, fighting in the battle at Helm’s Deep.

Wait, what? Arwen was supposed to fight at Helm’s Deep? Actually, now that I think about it, that makes a little sense in that she does appear to be heading out with the other elves in those cutaway scenes. But seems like she’d have been a distraction in the battle (for Aragorn) so I’m glad she got cut out.

@Waenara

Saruman explicitly instructed his orcs (the Uruk Hai) to capture any halflings they come across and bring them directly to him. The orcs didn’t know who Merry and Pippin were, and they don’t know who the ringbearer is. They just know to bring any hobbits they find to Saruman.

Oh, okay. Thanks. I had thought Saruman would’ve told the lead Uruk Hai dude at least to “get the hobbit with the ring,” not necessarily telling him its exact importance to [del]the plot[/del] Sauren. But if they couldn’t even be trusted for a simple search/kidnap mission, bringing back all the hobbits makes sense.

@well_he_s_back

Hey Choie, missed ya. FWIW, here are my thoughts on some of your questions –
-yes, you learn more about Smeagol/Gollum in the next film, tho I think he had some of his best scenes in this one.

I’m not surprised. They were incredible. Watching again I was even more impressed at how much sympathy I mustered up for an otherwise creepy little dude. That scene after Faramir captures him and he crawls into a ball crying about being betrayed… ouch. Painful.

-The song at the end, well it’s a matter of taste. I liked it, and the singer. So moody.

The song was nice. The chick just sounded like a yowling cat to me. But I can dig that the voice did fit the mood. Especially if it’s called “Gollum’s Song.”

@Airk

No, again, this is one of those sequences that got muddled in the film. They tried too hard to play up the “Is it Gandalf… or is it Saruman!?” angle in several scenes. In the book, while Gandalf has been wandering around Fangorn Forest a bit, his conversation with Aragorn and Co is the first chat he’s had with anyone mortal since coming back. (He apparently hung around Lorien for a bit, but they all probably just called him “Mithrandir”). He has -seen- Merry and Pippin (and Treebeard) but they didn’t see him (Treebeard -might- have). Definitely no chit chat has taken place. The reunion between Gandalf and the hobbits happens after the ents trash Isengard.

OHhhh. Now that explains it! When Gandalf says to Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli, “they ran into someone they weren’t expecting to meet…” that definitely gave me the impression they’d, y’know… met up with Gandalf. Also, in the earlier scene, the Ent said that he was taking them to the white wizard. I know they were trying to fake us out, I just couldn’t figure out the timeline here. Your explanation helps a lot, thanks. Kinda bad editing then (or perhaps bad dialogue choices), because the Ent/Merry/Pippin scene comes practically on the heels of Gandalf’s “oh yeah, that’s my name” line, so it was rather confusing to me, as I am rather a continuity nazi.

Maybe. It’s either “Holy hell. I’ve just unleashed death on my own race.” or “OMG! Saruman is SO AWESOME! I am moved to tears!” That’s up to the audience, since that scene doesn’t appear in the book.

Ah, gotcha. I thought maybe his thoughts in that scene might’ve been elaborated on a tad in the book. Personally I prefer that it’s that he hadn’t quite realized that he was dooming Eowyn, though he otherwise couldn’t give a rat’s patoot about the rest of the humans’ lives. (Although I’d be worried about my own life if I were him, but sub-archvillains rarely think of that bigger picture stuff, do they?)

It probably won’t come up, but how did Grima even get hold of Theodin’s ear in the first place? Seems hard to believe anyone would buy him as an honest advisor, but on the other hand, Theodin was under a spell, so I guess he could’ve been convinced to do almost anything if Saruman was working through Grima.

Why do you presume the orcs could tell which hobbit had the ring? They’re not Nazgul, they can’t sense it. Or are you saying they could’ve searched them? If that’s the question, the answer is “Saruman told them not to.” Because he doesn’t really trust his orcs with finding and carrying the Most Powerful Magic Artifact in Arda. Orcs, not being famous for their strength of will or discipline, would probably have rapidly come to blows over the ring, and whoever ended up with it probably would’ve run off. So instead, Saruman sends his orcs to capture and bring back any halflings they can get their hands on.

Yeah, I just figured Saruman could tell them “find the hobbit with the pretty gold circle and bring him to me” and they’d search the hobbits manually. But if they too would be dazzled by the Ring’s Aura of Awesome, that answers that.

Hrm? I -know- there’s a scene with him seeing Boromir in the boat in one of the films. It -could- be RotK, but I coulda sworn it was extended TT.

I think that’s in the extended version of TT. I only saw the vanilla version on advice of counsel.

The “awesome agent” theory is as good as any, but honestly, prior to these films, she was a bigger name. Most folks had never even -heard- of Viggo before.

Really? Huh. I remember seeing him around about as much as Liv, but Hollywood works by different rules than “people choie knows,” sad to say.

@kenobi_65

Yup, Grima totally has a jones for Eowyn. I don’t have my books with me, but I seem to remember that Saruman had promised Grima that he could have Eowyn after Saruman conquered Rohan.

Yep, that’s stated in this film (or at least strongly implied). I was just wondering about that tear, as it’s a rare moment of … well, not vulnerability, that’d be putting it way too heavily, but something along those lines. Humanity. Feeling, of some sort. Otherwise he’s pretty much your standard Fawning Sycophantic Traitor character, at least in the film. As much as Dourif can rock da house, there’s a limit to what even he can do when you’re playing an FST.

Jackson wanted Bjork to do that song, but she was either unwilling or unavailable. IIRC, she is the one who suggested the woman who wound up doing it. And, yes, it’s meant to be odd-sounding; it’s “Gollum’s Song.” Just wait until you hear the song at the end of RotK.

Oh lord! Also: heh.

Thanks as always for the elucidation, folks!

[jsc1953]

@choie

Cool. Are there wizards of other colors besides white & grey?

In the book, Radagast the Brown plays a very minor role. In other materials (can’t recall if its Letters or Unfinished Tales), Tolkien refers to two other “Blue” wizards, named Allatar and Pallando, who wandered off into the East and were never heard from again.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

So? When you watching ROTK?

[choie]

@Qadgop_the_Mercotan

So? When you watching ROTK?

I gotsta return these disks first! (The extras disk will go unseen, alas.) So, I figure the end of this week, if Netflix is speedy enough.

I almost don’t want to see it because I’m enjoying the series so much, it’ll be a shame when it ends. Also I’m a bit leery of learning the fates of some of the characters. Especially since all-seeing Cate Galadriel already told us what happens to my favorite, alas.

But see it I will, don’t worry.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@choie

…Thank God for that. I’d thought Enya was better than that. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the song itself. But the singer … oy.

The song was nice. The chick just sounded like a yowling cat to me. But I can dig that the voice did fit the mood. Especially if it’s called “Gollum’s Song.”
…

I agree, the singer on the soundtrack is grating. A few years back, though, I heard the Pittsburgh Symphony perform Howard Shore’s score (with Shore himself conducting), and the female singer they had (not the same as on the soundtrack) was just awesome. Great voice, and a totally different tone for the song.

[Chronos]

In the books, the orcs knew or strongly suspected that the hobbits were carrying some unspecified item of great value, and a couple of them did in fact try to take it off of the hobbits (and fight each other in the process, of course, that being the orcish way). One of them even seemed to have some inkling of suspicion of what it might be, and one of the hobbits (I think it was Merry) briefly plays along to create a distraction when the Rohirrim attack the Orcs (that’s how the hobbits were able to escape that battle: The greedy orc carried them off to the edge of the camp to loot them in privacy).

And the other thing with Gandalf officially becoming “the White”, is that it means that he not only now has greater power than Saruman, but more importantly (to Tolkien’s view, at least), he has more authority, too. This is similar to how Aragorn and only Aragorn was able to use the Palantir safely, because he has the right to do so.

[well_he_s_back]

ACK - spoiler warning! Choie! Ignore the word “palantir” in the previous post…not that it means anything to you yet. But, still.

[choie]

@well_he_s_back

ACK - spoiler warning! Choie! Ignore the word “palantir” in the previous post…not that it means anything to you yet. But, still.

LOL, thank you – I was just thinking, “palanwhat now?” Fortunately a lot of these names blend together for me (Palantir sounds like it could be the name of Faramir/Boromir’s sister or something), so I’ll probably forget it before ROTK comes around. Plus, Chronos didn’t give details as far as I can tell, or at least none that spoiled anything because I’m still blissfully dim. So don’t worry about it, Chronos.

But going back to Chronos’s comment: You mention that Gandalf is now more powerful than Saruman because he’s a White Wizard. Aren’t they equal, since Saruman is also White? Or is it just because Gandalf is just generally better at wizardy stuff (and also is on the side of the righteous)? Or doesn’t it matter?

(I do think they overdid the glowy shiny Christ-is-Risen effects when Gandalf revealed himself to Ara/Leg/Gimli. I felt like I was watching Aslan or (more to the point) King of Kings.)

[kenobi_65]

@choie

You mention that Gandalf is now more powerful than Saruman because he’s a White Wizard. Aren’t they equal, since Saruman is also White? Or is it just because Gandalf is just generally better at wizardy stuff (and also is on the side of the righteous)? Or doesn’t it matter?

Well, Saruman gave up the “White” title (though I can’t remember how much of that was actually depicted in the movie). I’m not sure how much (if any) of his power was taken away from him as a consequence of him turning away from the light / Gandalf being brought back as Gandalf the White. Though, yes, it does still matter, at least a little bit.

Also, and we’ll talk more about this after you watch RotK, but Saruman’s reaches his fate in the movie in quite a different fashion from how he reaches it in the book. (And, for that matter, I seem to recall that it differs between the theatrical release and the extended cut.)

[choie]

Ah, thank you, kenobi 65. In addition to answering my question, you also reminded me of a new one. So far I’ve seen the extended version of Fellowship and the regular version of Two Towers. What do y’all think about the third film – any reason I should go for the extended edition of ROTK, or should I stick with the theatrical release?

[well_he_s_back]

Yes, that Christ symoblism in the film was a little over the top in that scene you refer to, Choie. We book-fans-who-liked-the-movies take such things with a grain of salt. It’s what we had to put up with in return for the good things Peter Jackson did.

Just saw your question - I still say go for the theatrical releases first time you see them. More impact, esp. for the last one. And then when it’s over, you can console yourself by saying you still have a little more to see!

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@well_he_s_back

… I still say go for the theatrical releases first time you see them. More impact, esp. for the last one. And then when it’s over, you can console yourself by saying you still have a little more to see!

Precisely. Well said.

Especially since ROTK is pretty damned long, and I mean that in a good way.

[Grey]

Ignore the colours. The names Gandalf and Saruman were given to them by the people of middle earth. Gandalf (which is a northern mannish name) also goes by Mithrandir (elven) and Tharkun (dwarvish). The innate power of each wizard seems to be based on their innate power as Maia (angelic beings). Saruman was innately more powerful than Gandalf, who may or may not have been more powerful than Radagast.

The colour association seems to emerge through their habits and personal choices. Saruman was chosen to lead the White Council as the coordinator of resistance to Sauron the Dark Lord. I don’t know, but I would assume that this is when he begins to clothe himself in white and takes up the mantle Saruman the White. After Gandalf’s reincarnation he becomes the effective leader of the council and is clothed by Galadriel in White. Does this make him more powerful than Saruman? My opinion would be no, his lessened restrictions likely make his available power greater than Saruman’s but more importantly Saruman has spent the better part of 200 years expending his will and power on his troops. Domination requires a dispersion of personal will. This would be why Saruman is shocked that Gandalf can call him back. Not only has Gandalf increased in power but Saruman has lessened.

[jsc1953]

@well_he_s_back

Just saw your question - I still say go for the theatrical releases first time you see them. More impact, esp. for the last one. And then when it’s over, you can console yourself by saying you still have a little more to see!

Two of my favorite book scenes were cut and/or altered dramatically in ROTK (Gandalf vs you-know-who; Aragorn talking to you-know-who outside the gates of you-know-where). Both cuts were restored in the extended version, but neither is completely satisfactory…so yeah, definitely start with the theatrical version.

[Chronos]

Apologies for the spoiler: I’m much more familiar with the books than with the movies, and sometimes lose track of what was in which movie. What I referenced would not have been a spoiler as of the end of the second book.

[well_he_s_back]

No worries Chronos. I’m overly protective of our Tolkien virgin. She’s almost as rare as a passenger pigeon in these parts.

[Airk]

@kenobi_65

Also, and we’ll talk more about this after you watch RotK, but Saruman’s reaches his fate in the movie in quite a different fashion from how he reaches it in the book. (And, for that matter, I seem to recall that it differs between the theatrical release and the extended cut.)

It doesn’t “differ” precisely, unless you consider “you never see what happens to him” in the theatrical cut to be a different version than seeing it in the extended.

I heartily endorse Threatrical RotK honestly. The stuff they added back for the Extended was…not really very good. And in some cases Paths of the dead! URK! downright bad.

As for Saruman vs Gandalf “the White” - yes, it’s mostly just that Gandalf now has, as Chronos said, Authority. He’s now -allowed- to do a bunch of stuff he couldn’t/wouldn’t/shouldn’t have done previously. The rules, for Gandalf, have been adjusted.

Regarding how Grima ever got Theoden’s ear, well. In the book, Theoden wasn’t really under a -spell- or “possessed” in the way the film does it, but the simple upshot is that, Grima was a good man, once, and gave Theoden good and helpful council. And then, when Saruman bought Grima’s loyalties (With promises of “giving” him Eowyn when all was said and done.) he slowly and carefully drove the other councillors out of favor.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@Airk

Regarding how Grima ever got Theoden’s ear, well. In the book, Theoden wasn’t really under a -spell- or “possessed” in the way the film does it, but the simple upshot is that, Grima was a good man, once, and gave Theoden good and helpful council. And then, when Saruman bought Grima’s loyalties (With promises of “giving” him Eowyn when all was said and done.) he slowly and carefully drove the other councillors out of favor.

Sort of like Aethelraed the Unraed, no? Shades of Anglo-Saxon literature!

(Wise counsel the No counsel)

[Captain_Amazing]

@Qadgop_the_Mercotan

Sort of like Aethelraed the Unraed, no? Shades of Anglo-Saxon literature!

(Wise counsel the No counsel)

Noble counsel, not wise counsel.

[Airk]

@Qadgop_the_Mercotan

Sort of like Aethelraed the Unraed, no? Shades of Anglo-Saxon literature!

(Wise counsel the No counsel)

Fancy that… Tolkien drawing on Anglo-Saxon literature? You might suspect him of being a professor something.