I've never read LOTR. Will I like the movie(s)?

Cafe Society
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Re: kenobi 65’s spoiler: Oh man, that would’ve been awesome to see! And that answers one of my biggest “huh??” questions from my watch-through, which was: Are you frickin’ kidding me? Saruman is the (secondary) Big Bad of the story – and way more interesting than Sauron mainly because he’s an actual person rather than a big amber eye – and he gets fobbed off with Gandalf’s “Oh, he’s of no concern, he’s under guard” The whole film I kept waiting for those words to bite Gandalf in the ass (because dismissing a villain like that is almost always a hint that he’s not finished with his perfidy, and besides, villains/traitors of the ilk of Saruman and Grima pretty much demand an ignominious death) but … no. That was a letdown, I must admit. :frowning:

Also, I thought from previous posts in the thread that the “scouring” refers to hunting for Gollem at some point? It’s actually Saruman? My bad.

Now it’s time for my general observations/questions as I was watching the film. Onward ho!

  • Holy merde, that opening with Smeagol… that was terrific and shocking. So was Smeagol a hobbit after all? He certainly looked / dressed like one. And what an incredible special effect as he transitioned from a regular ‘human’ face to Gollum. Speaking of which, I’ve lost my sympathy for him, as some of you will be releaved to know. I felt like where TTT spent time building up sympathy for the character, ROTK was all about tearing it back down. I mean, starting out with Smeagol ogling the worm in almost lascivious delight? Very effective for showing us that there was something ‘off’ about the guy even before he saw the Ring. And obviously his later behavior was horrible and creepy. By the time he met his end I was thrilled to see that little fucker burn up.

  • Okay, the scenes between Elrond / Arwen lost me. Not just “lost” as in “yawn” (sorry, but I just cannot whip up interest in Arwen as a character) but “lost” as in “wtf is going on?” This was one of the many times early in the film that I thought the editing was incredibly choppy. I couldn’t tell if we were watching vignettes from Arwen/Elrond conversations during different times, or flash-forwards, or visions, or flash-backs… It actually seemed as if they were having one long conversation but then the camera shot would change and the conversation continued but Arwen was suddenly wearing different clothes and in a slightly different position… This whole storyline seemed to suffer the most for my not having read the book first. They seemed to be talking in code most of the time. Frustrating. I felt Jackson should’ve really focused on telling a coherent tale confined to the movie, rather than using shorthand, as I think he did. This seems to be a danger for adaptations (felt the same way in Harry Potter & the Goblet of Fire). Not sure I’m making any sense…

  • Gondor! Finally a real city! What a breathtaking design.

  • Pippin is absolutely the MVP of this movie. He has serious cojones, not to mention honor, ignoring Gandalf’s warning about not saying anything to, uh, the Steward. (Shoot, I don’t remember the guy’s name. You know. Boromir/Faramir’s asshat dad.) The connection between Gandalf and Pippin was my favorite relationship of the film. I enjoyed those similar scenes from LOTR between Gandalf/Frodo, and I was hoping to see more of them in ROTK but 'twas not to be. Also, Pippin has a nice singing voice.

  • Another victim of what felt to me like choppy editing was Faramir’s re-introduction. Where exactly were Faramir and his soldiers as they were fighting off the orcs? I assumed it was Minas Tirith but apparently not. And how the heck does Gandalf suddenly know Faramir? Going by the last film, we never saw Gandalf with Faramir. This is one of the occasions where Jackson seems to forget that some of us are going off of his films’ continuity, not the books’. And according to the films’ continuity, Gandalf and Faramir never met. I understand there’s a lot of stuff to get into these films and they’re already hella long, but I just felt there was a bit too much shortcutting going on.

  • Biggest laugh line (paraphrased): “Why does the fat hobbit hate Smeagol? What has Smeagol ever done to him?”

  • Okay, what is with Faramir and his fucked up dad (hereinafter FUD, since I still can’t remember his name*)? Why is FUD so down on Faramir? * Okay, I just looked it up and it’s Denothor, but I’m sticking with FUD because this guy doesn’t deserve any better.

  • David Wenham (Faramir) has surprised the hell out of me by turning in one of the best performances in the film, aside from Andy Serkis and Ian McKellan, in a teensy role. The transformative reaction on his face from stolid to quietly heartbroken when he asked if FUD would rather he died than Boromir was truly painful. Also he’s quite staggeringly lovely to look at.

  • Why is Gandalf telling Faramir not to fight, that they’re heading for doom, yadda yadda? I thought Gandalf wanted Gondor to get its ass in gear? Help!

  • Why is John Rhys Davies so consistantly terrific? Okay, that’s not really a question, just an observation. The friendship between Gimli and Legolas never fails to amuse. Orlando Bloom does a lot with a surprisingly tiny role. (I thought going in that he was basically the second lead of the movies. I haven’t read a lick of LOTR fanfic but “Legolas” is everywhere in it.)

  • OMGWTFBBQ! HEADS! THEY’RE CATAPULTING HEADS!!! That is badass.

  • No seriously, Pippin? Is awesome. I am so happy with his character development in the film. I thought he and Merry were pretty much the comic relief without any major part to play in the proceedings (especially since I began to dread their appearances in TTT, as they meant more time with the tedious Ents). But then BOOM he shows tremendous courage and honor. Very well acted too.

  • Someone is gonna have to explain to me why the hell FUD wants to burn his son alive. At first I was all, maybe he doesn’t realize Faramir’s alive? But no, it’s kinda hard to miss the fact that the kid’s sweating. I was aching throughout this whole series of events, from Pippin’s horrified realization that FUD is killing his own son, to the discovery that FUD is gonna immolate himself too, to the kickass scene where Gandalf rides in and Pippin freakin’ leaps on the flaming pyre to grab Faramir. (Considering how gorgeous Faramir is, I’d do the same thing.) And that final look as Faramir opens his eyes to see his father in flames… yowsa. Holy crap, that was tense and riveting.

  • Though I must mention that it seems a little … out of perspective, shall we say? … for Gandalf to take time away from fighting the massive onslaught to prevent one guy from dying. I mean, they’re all pretty much doomed either way at this point, right? At least, that’s what Gandalf thinks.

  • And now we come to our second MVP of the film: Eowyn. There are no words for how much I loved her in this flick. One of my favorite moments was her grabbing Merry and being revealed underneath the helmet, and her clutching him and whispering: “Whatever happens, stay with me.” The amount of sheer nerve despite what must’ve been terror (and this goes for both her and Merry) moved me tremendously. Then, when she showed up to defend her uncle against the Witch King and that “I am no man!” line – even though I was expecting such a Macduff moment when I remembered that Gandalf had said ‘no man can kill him’) – good God, that was epic and inspiring. Women don’t get much to do in this story, but Eowyn makes up for it in spades. I said in TTT that she was worth ten of Arwen, and now that figure rises to about fifty. I’d say Aragorn is crazy, but if I’m judging right by the positioning of Eowyn and my boy Faramir at the end of the film, she gets the more interesting guy anyway.

  • The appearance of the dead army with Aragorn was thrilling. And surely it’s an indication of how much of an Order of the Stick fan I am that my immediate thought was: “Ghost martyrs of the Sapphire Guard! Attack!” I wonder if Rich was paying homage to this moment in LOTR?

  • OMG with Legolas counting as he jumps onto the flippin elephant and knocks off everyone one by one! Hilarious. And after all that, Gimli snarking, “that only counts as one!” I love these guys.

  • Um … two words: “The EAGLES!” No, wait, actually, here are three more words: What. the. hell? Seriously, where the frakkin frick did the eagles come from, other than pulled out of Gandalf’s nether region? Mind you, I’m glad to see Gandalf finally use some damn magic. For a wizard he’s really nerfed. Okay, okay, y’all have told me that Tolkien’s wizards aren’t the same as other fantasy wizards. Still, I would’ve liked to see one helluva lot more firepower from a guy who’s supposed to be All That and a Bag of Lamas Bread, wizardwise.

  • After three movies I completely forgot that Frodo still thought Gandalf was dead. It would’ve been nice to see more of a reunion between the two, and a word of gratitude or encouragement or praise or something from Gandalf to Frodo. Maybe less time spent on Frodo’s beaming beatifically at his friends and more actual, y’know, conversation? God, this ending was sloooow. I know I have nothing to back this up, because I haven’t read the books, but I feel that Frodo’s scenes were not directed (or at times acted – pace Mr. Wood!) all that well. Too many close-ups on his agonized eyes, too many incidents of him falling down in wordless pain only to get saved by Sam… I dunno, couldn’t they have come up with some dialogue? I know, I know, “show don’t tell,” and for that matter if the dialogue was gonna consist of Sam’s treacly visions of the future I could definitely do without that, but still. Guess I just wanted Frodo to be less of a wet sock. According to past posts in this thread, this is apparently evident in the book, so maybe my instincts are correct.

  • I must say I approve of Aragorn singing a brucha after he’s crowned. Who knew he was a yeshiva boy all this time?

  • Yay. Arwen isn’t dead. I guess that’s good. :wink: Though can someone explain to me why Elrond said earlier she was dying as a result of the Ring? I don’t recall her having some major connection to the Ring before.

  • So. Eowyn and Faramir? I’m not reading too much into this, right? YES. I can’t believe that for once, a favored character of mine a) survives and b) gets hooked up with another favorite character! That’s unprecedented! If you knew my history with favorite fictional characters, dozens of whom have died/gone mad/turned villainous, you would understand what an utter miracle this is! (Of course, the ending for my other favorite character – Frodo – cancels this out, so my lifelong curse still holds sway.) Anyway, as pleased as hell as I am by the apparent pairing, it would’ve been nice to see some scene justifying this, even just a quick dialogueless vignette of showing Eowyn tending to a recovering Faramir, that would give us a hint that these two are ending up together. We could certainly have used thirty less seconds of that endless reunion scene in the Shire.

  • I found Frodo’s ending pretty damn depressing. It kinda sucks that everyone gets their happy ending but the shlub who pretty much endured the most to save the world. I suppose the Ring took a lot out of his soul; he certainly didn’t seem able to live life without it. [del]Though we all know he was just heartbroken 'cause of losing Sam, who after spending the whole film mooning after Frodo suddenly revealed a somewhat reluctant heterosexuality.[/del] But really: he spends four years writing the book (and not even coming up with an ending! What a cop-out for a writer!) and then just gives up on life? Crap. Poor guy.

  • Plus, I felt it wasn’t really explained why the Elves and Gandalf were heading off with Reepicheep and the Dawn Treader. (Just kidding.) Bilbo I get – in fact, I thought he’d already gone off to die in the first film. But why would the whole society of Elves up and leave? And Gandalf, he practically only just turned White, why not enjoy life a little as the top mojo wizard in a time of peace?

Whew. All in all, aside from my feeling annoyance from the choppiness, and disappointment in the slow, somewhat downcast ending (at least downcast for Frodo), I greatly enjoyed this film. The utter win of Eowyn and Merry’s fighting, the thrill of seeing that goddamned ring finally melt into nothingness right after Kentucky Fried Gollum, the intense father/son dynamic between Faramir and FUD, Pippin’s incredible journey … I’d say there were more “crowning moments of awesome” in this than the other two films, which is understandable since this is, after all, the climax. Even so, I can’t decide where I’d place ROTK among the three films, ratingwise; I think I need to see them all again to best judge.

This was an extraordinary journey. I know I seem to nitpick and I’m sure my comments make me sound like I’m the most shallow, ignorant viewer, especially for you guys who’ve pored over the book and understandably treasure every well-worn page. I can only imagine how dumb my questions are! But I thank you all very much for bearing with me and accepting my silliness and snarking with good humor, as it was intended. And for helping me understand this monumental work. I will almost certainly read the book so I can gain a richer understanding of Tolkien’s world, of which I’m sure Jackson has depicted only a fraction.

I’d love to hear your thoughts about ROTK too. What were your highs/lows?

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Gonna answer a few of these with a big “IIRC” disclaimer.

Sort of a proto-hobbit, a hobbit ancestor.

He even wrote the song!

Why does any parent who favors one child over another favor them? They just do.

I think he’s pretty much going crazy at this point. He’s given in to despair, and it’s pushed him over the edge.

Remember back in the first film? Gandalf got off of Saruman’s tower by calling a giant eagle to come get him. (And they couldn’t have just ridden the eagles *into *Mordor, because they would have been noticed and stopped.)

I think that was pretty intentional. I’m sure Tolkein saw a lot of that in the war–the people who sacrified the most came back the most fucked up. At least Frodo could leave Middle Earth with the elves and finally rest.
So, when are you going back to watch all the special features?! :smiley:

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That was Osgiliath. Originally, there was one big city right on the river, which was the original capital of Gondor. In the mountains to the east, there was a sort of suburb called Minas Ithil (literally, “Tower of the Moon”), and to the west, a twin city to Minas Ithil called Minas Arnor (“Tower of the Sun”). Long before the time of the story, though, Minas Ithil fell under control of the Nazgul and was renamed Minas Morgul, Osgiliath was pretty much abandoned and is now the standard no-man’s-land for skirmishes between Gondor and Mordor, and only the more defensible Minas Arnor (now renamed Minas Tirith, “Tower of Guard”) remains under human control.

The Eagles aren’t magic; they’ve always been around and (more or less, to the extent a predator can be) on the side of Good. All Gandalf did was talk to them. They couldn’t play such a direct part before, because they wouldn’t have gotten through Mordor’s defenses, but with the Ring destroyed, there was enough turmoil that they were able to get in and save the Hobbits.

There’s a great line about that in the books. Eowyn: “Would you have people think that you could not find a wife among your own noble race, and had to settle for a wild woman from the North?”
Faramir: “Yes” (and kisses her).

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Surprisingly, some of the best lines (definitely some of the funniest) in the movies were PJ’s, and not Tolkien’s. A good example is that exchange of “don’t mention Boromir…or Aragorn…come to think of it, don’t talk at all.”

They were at a suburb of Gondor, named Osgiliath. A river runs through Osgiliath, making it a good line of defense. So when the orcs crossed the river and took the city, it was time to high-tail it to the walls of Gondor, and prepare for the siege. Denethor sent Faramir back off on a suicide mission to re-take Osgiliath, just because he’s a dick. Denethor liked Boromir, who was a manly-man and great warrior, whereas Faramir was more thoughtful and pensive and philosophical, and Denethor had no use for him.

(btw…you can see Denethor on Fox’s Fringe

You got that right. She kicks major ass…but one thing I like is that she manages to look completely terrified the whole time.

PJ dealt with Eowyn in disguise slightly different than Tolkien did. Tolkien kept her identity a secret all the way to the battle with the Witch King – we’re thinking he’s some random Rohirrim named Dernhelm, but then s/he whips off his helmet and lo! it’s Eowyn. That’s much easier to pull off on paper than on film,so I thinmk PJ made the right choice.

The Eagles are bit of a quandary for Tolkien geeks. Yes, they’re a serious Deus Ex Machina…and everyone asks why Gandalf didn’t just ride an eagle to the Fiery Mountain and drop the ring in. The stock answer: the eagles don’t run errands for nobody. They report directly to Manwe, head of the Valar (think Zeus, for an analogue). They show up sometimes when needed, but never on command.

Qadgop will be along to provide the translation…but Aragorn is singing the words of Elendil, his ancestor, when he first arrived on the shores of Middle Earth. And he’s singing in an ancient version of an Elvish language (Quenya…kind of Elf-Latin. The only instance of it in the movie).

It makes more sense of you think of elves and wizards in Middle Earth as being an anomaly, not the norm. Most elves had already left for the Undying Lands – relatively few had tarried. Gandalf was sent here to do a job – job’s done, time to punch out and go home. Kick off this old man outfit he’s been wearing for a few millenia, and put on his real Maiar duds.

What did you think of Shelob? The charge of the Rohirrim? The Army of Evil marching out of Minas Morgul (my favorite scenes)? “I can’t carry it…but I can carry you.” “You bow to no one.” (everyone’s favorite lines)?

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Arwen had opted to be of the mortal race, so now she was going to die, and she could no longer leave middle-earth. Hence her fate was tied to the ring.

In the book, Gandalf encouraged smart resistance, where it would do some good, not needless throwing of one’s life away where it wouldn’t do any good. PJ didn’t make this distinction very well at times, making Gandalf seem to be pretty much of a downer. But in the book, Gandalf did oppose sending Faramir needlessly out into danger.

And the ruined city was Osgiliath, former capital of Gondor, where the kings Isildur and Anarion ruled side by side. Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith) was a mere outpost, as was Minas Ithil (later Minas Morgul).

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I’m so glad you enjoyed it, choie! No it’s time to watch the extended versions and the special features. I don’t know how you made it almost a month between TTT and RotK! If it had been me, I think I would have taken a break in the middle of my first watching of FotR to run down to the video store to rent the other two. I’m not a patient person, oh no, precious, not patient at all.

This thread drove me to buy and read The Silmarillion. I finally know that the Silmarils are not the gems in the Three, which I had believed for over thirty years. :smack:

It’s strange; I’ve known and loved the books for four decades, and the movies differ in significant and often what seem to me to be unnecessary ways, yet I’m obsessed with these movies. I’ve thought and thought about why, and come to two conclusions: one, the music is just phenomenal and very moving. The other is the special features, and all the incredibly nerdish dedication that went into the making of these movies. When you watch all the special features, you realize that there is no part of these movies that wasn’t deeply thought out and considered and weighed delicately between the movie-makers’ best guesses as to what Tolkien would want and what constitutes good film. They tried so damned hard, and they succeeded beyond all expectation. What a labor of love!

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I thought the whole issue with her being with Aragorn was that she wouldn’t die and would live a very depressing life after watching her husband and kids grow old and die. Or was that just from the movie?

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Yeah, that confused me the first 4 or 5 times I saw the movie. :slight_smile: It makes sense only if Elrond is presenting a vision of what life would be like if Arwen marries Aragorn *without *giving up her elvish immortality (something I didn’t think was even an option). Indeed, then she would outlive her husband and children and wander the world alone. So Arwen’s solution is: I’ll become mortal. Nyaaah.

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About Elves and Middle Earth. Elves will live until the universe is rolled up and tucked away. They’ll exist for eons. Mortals on the other hand live briefly and then disappear. The Guests was a term the elves used for mortals. The point being that the wearing of time has removed any bliss the elves in Middle Earth might enjoy. They are effectively called back to Valinor, the last more or less untainted piece of the universe so they my live, create and grow until the end of time. By the time of the War of the Ring, most elves have left either on their own or through death contesting with Sauron.

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More precisely, most elves stayed in the Undying Lands to begin with.

It’s like this: Originally, way back before the days of the Sun and the Moon, the Elves appeared in Middle-Earth (how exactly they appeared is known only to Illuvatar, the One). The Valar saw them, said “Hey, wow, people!”, and invited them all to come to the Undying Lands with them, to learn cool stuff and come to their parties and in general have a great time. Most of the Elves went across the Sea then, but a few stayed behind. Legolas’s people, for example, were mostly Elves who had never made the journey, but the royal house (including Legolas) might have had higher ancestry. These elves, who stayed behind, are sometimes referred to as the “Dark Elves”, who never saw the light of the Trees (the light source before the Sun and the Moon, and much more beautiful).

Of the Light Elves, who completed the journey, most remained in the Undying Lands happily ever after. But a group of the Noldor (a clan of elves with a natural knack for making things), led by Feanor, the greatest craftsman to ever live, decided that the Valar were harshing their buzz, and not doing enough about the great evil Morgoth, so they rebelled against the Valar and came back to Middle Earth. Even though the Noldor were exiles and kinslayers by the standards of the West, they had still had training and tutelage in the Undying Lands and were therefore the most “advanced” people in Middle Earth, so they quickly rose to prominence. Galadriel was one of the original rebels (though she didn’t take part in the Kinslaying), and Elrond and his family are descended from the Noldor. Because of their great learning and culture, the Noldor are sometimes called “High Elves”.

Well, after the Noldor came back to Middle-Earth, they waged war against Morgoth over a span of centuries, and eventually got their asses handed to them. Finally, at the last moment, the Valar came and finished the job for them, and imprisoned Morgoth beyond the boundaries of the World (this is why Sauron is the biggest bad remaining as of LotR). After the conclusion of the War, the Valar issued a sort of general amnesty to any of the Noldor who wanted to come back to Valinor, and they’ve been returning ever since. Those that are left are the rare exceptions, and Galadriel, for instance, had a very hard time swallowing her pride enough to accept the amnesty (she didn’t finally decide to until Frodo tested her with the ring).

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Chronos gives a good summary.

Legolas was definitely Sindarin, a member of Elwe’s folk who set out with the rest of the Teleri to go to Valinor. But when Elwë got enamoured of Melian and was lost to his folk, many tarried on the shore of Middle-earth looking for their leader. Thus they missed the trip to Valinor.

When Elwë returned to his people, he set up an enlightened elven kingdom in Middle-earth, guided by Melian the Maia’s wisdom.

Thranduil and his son Legolas benefitted from this enlightenment, and when they lit out to found their own kingdom back east they peopled it with many Sylvan elves (probably a mix of those who had refused the journey to Valinor in the first place along with those who had set out but wandered off along the way). Thranduil and Legolas were quite advanced thanks to the influence of Elwë (who had seen the light of the trees with his own eyes) and his bride, and hence were the natural leaders of the elven realm in Mirkwood.

Elrond is descended from not only the Noldor, but also the Sindar (thru Elwing), and the 3 houses of the Edain (thru Tuor and Beren).

Interestingly (well, interesting to me), Galadriel was only 1/4 Noldor. Her grandmother was Vanyar, and her mother was Teleri. And she wasn’t allowed to return to Valinor until the ban was lifted by the Valar on her, after the events of the War of the Ring.

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1/4 Noldo. :wink:

choie, Denethor wants to burn Faramir with him for two reasons: 1) he thinks Faramir has had it anyway, and will die of the Morgul wound he has received (usually true, since Aragorn the True King wasn’t around to save such people), and 2) he thinks Minas Tirith and Gondor are toast, so why bother to live? This latter part I cannot recall how well the movie makes clear, but Denethor has one of those nifty Palantir things, and as such, has been tricked by Sauron into seeing all sorts of death, doom and destruction about to rain down on his wonderful city. And Denethor (or as you prefer, FUD :p) is a prime subscriber to the concept that Gondor is the only important place left in Middle Earth. If Gondor goes, everything goes and life ain’t worth living.

In the concepts of a slightly different trilogy, he gives in to Despair, though admittedly he doesn’t go in for wasting the whole land. :smiley:

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The movie makes no mention of Denethor’s Palantir, other than an oblique statement (“do you think the eyes of the White Tower are blind?”). When I shoot my remake ;), I’d do it thusly: Pippin & Gandalf pull Faramir from the pyre. Denethor remains, consumed in flames. His hand emerges from the fire, and the palantir – unseen up to this point – rolls from his grasp, onto the floor. A guard of the Citadel retrieves it…and sees in the crystal a pair of hands, wreathed in flame, and recoils in horror. Gandalf says something to the effect of “aha. A palantir. That explains why he went round the bend.”

Much better than Denethor the Fireball.

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Well, that’s one reason to watch the Extended Version. :slight_smile: For, Saruman’s fate is different still there.

Not really. Arwen is practically a non-entity in the book; PJ increased her role dramatically in the movies, by comparison.

From Gandalf’s past (off-camera) visits to Minas Tirith. Of the two sons of Denethor, Boromir was more like his father (and didn’t have much use for Gandalf), while Faramir was more open-minded, and interested in learning from the wizard.

This also helps explain Denethor’s behavior towards Faramir (not to mention the fact that he’s crazy as a bedbug by this point). Denethor wished that Faramir had been the one to die, rather than Boromir.

Because trying to retake Osgiliath (the mission that Denethor had given to Faramir) was a suicide mission. What Gandalf was wanting was for Gondor to prepare to defend Minas Tirith.

Bloom was pretty much an unknown before these movies.

Nope, you’re not reading too much into it. They get hitched, and, since there’s no longer need for a Steward of Gondor, they lead the rebuilding of Osgiliath.

That’s pretty much accurate. He never really recovers from the various pains he suffered during the journey (the Morgul-knife wound, the physical and psychological torment from bearing the Ring).

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QFT.

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I don’t recall this being explicit in JRRT’s writings. Did I miss something?

As Prince of Ithilien, I’m not sure Faramir’s writ would even run to Osgiliath. He got to settle Ithilien with its lovely woods, caves and waterfalls but I don’t remember him being tasked with reconstruction of that city.

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I’m no Lord of the Rings scholar, but this is how it appears to me.

Regarding Frodo, in FOTR, after Frodo is stabbed, Gandalf says that he’ll never bo truly well. That foreshadows his leaving the Shire. It also reminds me of Moses saving the Israelites and yet not baing allowed into the land of milk and honey. What he got instead was a trip to heaven, basically.

StG

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Well, not quite. Valinor is the greatest place in the World, but it’s still part of the World. And mortals who reach Valinor still grow old and die just like anyone else; they just do so in comfort. After mortals die, we leave the World entirely and are no longer bound by it, and even the Wise do not know what becomes of us then.

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Yeah. I always interpreted Valinor as being more analogous to “The Promised Land”–a heaven-on-earth sort of thing.

I’ve yet to get my hands on the books, so I didn’t know how long the Scouring was. I, like choie, just wanted to see a proper end to Saruman. The way the movies ended, it seems like Saruman could come back any time.

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She was by far my mostest favorite female character in the book – if only because there was such a dearth of them. When I heard that LOTR was being made into a movie, I waited for five years in anticipation of her confrontation with the Witch King. In the book, Merry does not realize that he is being taken to Gondor by Eowyn, who had taken the name Dernhelm and was passing as a man. The lieutenant of Dernhelm’s eored might have noticed that he was a little light in the loafers, or his baggage was more talkative than is usual, but made no comment. This, I think, was wisely ignored in the movie; all through TTT I wondered how Miranda Otto was going to pass for a male.

Not much is made of Dernhelm and Merry’s actions during the battle of Pelennor Fields until Theoden gets it. Merry is thrown from Dernhelm’s horse and is sick and blind with shock.

Sniff. What’s not to like?