I've never read LOTR. Will I like the movie(s)?

[choie]

Oh man, I have an assload of quoting to do. But it’s all 'cause you guys are so damn helpful. Thank you! I must say I felt like I was watching the film with you silently in the room – with all the info you’d shared with me, helping enrich the experience immeasurably.

@Shot_From_Guns

[Re: Smeagol] Sort of a proto-hobbit, a hobbit ancestor.

Ooh. Thanks, that makes sense. (And you’re the only one to answer this question, interestingly.) But when you say ‘ancestor’, how far back are we talking? For that matter, what’s the timeline again for a) when the Ring was lost, b) when Smeagol found the Ring, and c) when Bilbo nabbed it?

He even wrote the song!

Who, the actor? Really? Very cool. To answer your Q about the extras, I’ll get 'em next. I’m on the two-disk Netflix plan, and my other disk was already used by a different obsession.

@Chronos

The Eagles aren’t magic; they’ve always been around and (more or less, to the extent a predator can be) on the side of Good. All Gandalf did was talk to them. They couldn’t play such a direct part before, because they wouldn’t have gotten through Mordor’s defenses, but with the Ring destroyed, there was enough turmoil that they were able to get in and save the Hobbits.

First, thanks as always for your highly descriptive and engaging relation of Tolkien lore, Chronos. I am amazingly impressed at how well versed you guys are in the mythos.

Now, re: the eagles. They’re really not magic? They seemed way bigger than normal eagles, though. They picked up the halflings with one foot! I know hobbits are small but they ain’t that wee. Plus, Gandalf seemed to open a locket or something and allowed a teensy little eagle fly out, which appeared to turn into a big mofo on its own. Or am I misunderstanding what happened? Maybe this is just the movie and in the book they’re normal eagles?

There’s a great line about that in the books. Eowyn: “Would you have people think that you could not find a wife among your own noble race, and had to settle for a wild woman from the North?”
Faramir: “Yes” (and kisses her).

Awww! I like that. Faramir/Eowyn = OTP! I really do wish we’d gotten to see them get together or at least interact. Don’t these directors know a good pairing when they see it? Plus, they’d invested enough time in Eowyn’s character, showing her get hurt by Aragorn, that you’d think showing her find love elsewhere would be a nice ending to her arc. I don’t suppose there’s anything more of them in the Director’s cut, huh?

@jsc1953

Surprisingly, some of the best lines (definitely some of the funniest) in the movies were PJ’s, and not Tolkien’s. A good example is that exchange of “don’t mention Boromir…or Aragorn…come to think of it, don’t talk at all.”

Heh, yes, that was very good, especially McKellan’s reading.

They were at a suburb of Gondor, named Osgiliath. A river runs through Osgiliath, making it a good line of defense. So when the orcs crossed the river and took the city, it was time to high-tail it to the walls of Gondor, and prepare for the siege. Denethor sent Faramir back off on a suicide mission to re-take Osgiliath, just because he’s a dick. Denethor liked Boromir, who was a manly-man and great warrior, whereas Faramir was more thoughtful and pensive and philosophical, and Denethor had no use for him.

(btw…you can see Denethor on Fox’s Fringe

He looked very familiar, one of those “Hey! It’s that guy!” types. I didn’t have patience to wait for the cast list (I was really tired last night!) so I didn’t look him up yet.

Thanks for the explanation re: Osgiliath. That makes much more sense. I must’ve spaced on that exposition, because I don’t remember hearing that it was such a doomed situation (at least, before Gandalf started harshing Faramir’s buzz).

And also your explanation re: Denethor and Faramir vs. Boromir is certainly illuminating. Despite this, I get the sense that Faramir didn’t resent his brother; at least, from what little Faramir mentions of Boromir in TTT there seems to be genuine love and loss there. Am I right? Usually there’s some tension between a favored son and the black sheep. I’m glad that wasn’t the case, as this is more interesting and less cliched a take.

You got that right. She kicks major ass…but one thing I like is that she manages to look completely terrified the whole time.

Oh absolutely. That is precisely why she’s such an excellent depiction. (Big credit ps to the actress.) There’s any number of “kickass women” who take up swords or guns and fight with fiesty abandon or grim purpose. But it’s not realistic for a woman or anyone (like Merry) who’s never actually been in a combat situation to be all businesslike and unafraid. I always, always find it more impressive and powerful when someone feels fear and does what needs to be done anyway. That is true bravery, to me. Much more sympathetic and believable and just plain awesome.

(To digress to OOTS again: it’s why in the team-up of O-Chul and Vaarsuvius to attack Xykon, I find Vaarsuvius much more genuinely courageous. O-Chul never seems afraid for his life, he just forges ahead, and that just ain’t human. V has terror in those little round dots of india ink (to quote Charles Schulz), but gamely goes ahead with the attack anyway. Loved it.)

PJ dealt with Eowyn in disguise slightly different than Tolkien did. Tolkien kept her identity a secret all the way to the battle with the Witch King – we’re thinking he’s some random Rohirrim named Dernhelm, but then s/he whips off his helmet and lo! it’s Eowyn. That’s much easier to pull off on paper than on film,so I thinmk PJ made the right choice.

Definitely. That’s funny, as a writer I’ve done something similar (hiding a character’s identity) but it was important for a mystery to maintain the disguise. I don’t think I’d have done so in this case. It’s the difference between shock vs. suspense. Tolkien apparently used shock, giving the readers a few moments of “whoa,” while Jackson gave us suspense – we know this inexperienced, terrified woman is going into the most dangerous territory she’s ever known, and our hearts are in our throats with every hoofbeat of her horse, waiting for something horrible to happen.

Of course, I may feel differently when I read the book. A great author can pull off quite a lot.

The Eagles are bit of a quandary for Tolkien geeks. Yes, they’re a serious Deus Ex Machina…and everyone asks why Gandalf didn’t just ride an eagle to the Fiery Mountain and drop the ring in. The stock answer: the eagles don’t run errands for nobody. They report directly to Manwe, head of the Valar (think Zeus, for an analogue). They show up sometimes when needed, but never on command.

LOL, y’know, I didn’t even think of the issue that the eagles present, as far as potentially solving the Ring problem. Glad to see this is something others feel too.

Qadgop will be along to provide the translation…but Aragorn is singing the words of Elendil, his ancestor, when he first arrived on the shores of Middle Earth. And he’s singing in an ancient version of an Elvish language (Quenya…kind of Elf-Latin. The only instance of it in the movie).

So a different version of Elvish than they were speaking throughout the film?

Still sounded like a cantor on a High Holy Day to me.

What did you think of Shelob?

The who with the what now?

The charge of the Rohirrim? The Army of Evil marching out of Minas Morgul (my favorite scenes)? “I can’t carry it…but I can carry you.” “You bow to no one.” (everyone’s favorite lines)?

Er, some of these are blending together in my mind. Which charge of the Rohirrim? The one with the king and Eowyn as they fought against the orcs and later the elephants? An amazing battle. I usually don’t like combat scenes much, not because I’m squeamish but because they all tend to seem so similar: lots of grunting, clinking armor, thundering hooves, dirt everywhere, etc. But with several characters to follow, and such original weapons (as in elephants), and overall excellent direction that didn’t cut too quickly from action shot to action shot, I found this exhilerating and scary.

The Army of Evil … were these the ghosties or do you mean the bad guys? Yeah as you see, I’m still kinda slow.

I wasn’t thrilled with “I can’t carry it…” because by that time almost every word out of Sam’s mouth was making me cringe (sorry), but “You bow to no one” was definitely one of my favorites of the film. The meek shall be risen, and the great shall be humbled.

@Qadgop_the_Mercotan

Arwen had opted to be of the mortal race, so now she was going to die, and she could no longer leave middle-earth. Hence her fate was tied to the ring.

Hmph. Seems like a stretch on Elrond’s part to me. Elrond seemed to be implying some special connection, sorta like Frodo or Gollum’s. But maybe I just misunderstood. Which, let’s face it, is quite likely in my case. (Don’t lie, you know you were thinking that!)

In the book, Gandalf encouraged smart resistance, where it would do some good, not needless throwing of one’s life away where it wouldn’t do any good. PJ didn’t make this distinction very well at times, making Gandalf seem to be pretty much of a downer. But in the book, Gandalf did oppose sending Faramir needlessly out into danger.

I agree. A lot of things people said seemed to come from nowhere, or seemed to lack motivation, and usually I assumed: “Okaay, I guess we’re supposed to know that from the book.” This is one of those cases, clearly. Like I said, I know it’s a tough line to walk in adaptations – you want to have things be meaningful for those who love the original source, but you also need to make sense to the ignorant buggers like me in the audience. I really think it’s better to err on the side of making the film self-contained, so that characters and events make sense on their own. So no fair assuming the audience will “guess” stuff like past relationships (e.g. Gandalf/Faramir/Denothor). No one wants to waste minutes of precious film time in exposition, but shit needs to make sense, y’know?

@Oy

I’m so glad you enjoyed it, choie! No it’s time to watch the extended versions and the special features. I don’t know how you made it almost a month between TTT and RotK! If it had been me, I think I would have taken a break in the middle of my first watching of FotR to run down to the video store to rent the other two. I’m not a patient person, oh no, precious, not patient at all.

Heh. I’m usually that way too. Honestly, I’ve had the disk out for two weeks now, but I’ve been putting it off because I wanted the experience to last. I really wanted to finish the trilogy but I didn’t want it to end. Y’know?

It’s strange; I’ve known and loved the books for four decades, and the movies differ in significant and often what seem to me to be unnecessary ways, yet I’m obsessed with these movies. I’ve thought and thought about why, and come to two conclusions: one, the music is just phenomenal and very moving. The other is the special features, and all the incredibly nerdish dedication that went into the making of these movies. When you watch all the special features, you realize that there is no part of these movies that wasn’t deeply thought out and considered and weighed delicately between the movie-makers’ best guesses as to what Tolkien would want and what constitutes good film. They tried so damned hard, and they succeeded beyond all expectation. What a labor of love!

That much is clear! Do you have a favorite of the films? Was there anything you felt was lacking? What were the biggest changes? (These questions are for everyone, btw!)

@jsc1953

Yeah, that confused me the first 4 or 5 times I saw the movie. It makes sense only if Elrond is presenting a vision of what life would be like if Arwen marries Aragorn *without *giving up her elvish immortality (something I didn’t think was even an option). Indeed, then she would outlive her husband and children and wander the world alone. So Arwen’s solution is: I’ll become mortal. Nyaaah.

Yeah, I have to say, the new explanations you guys are giving me seem pretty much the opposite of what I got from all the discussions about Elven lives and loves and how Elrond was worried that she’d be watching her beloved die…

@Grey

About Elves and Middle Earth. Elves will live until the universe is rolled up and tucked away.

What a wonderful turn of phrase! Just wanted to highlight this. It sounds like an Irish proverb.

They’ll exist for eons. Mortals on the other hand live briefly and then disappear. The Guests was a term the elves used for mortals.

OOH that’s kinda harsh. Love it.

The point being that the wearing of time has removed any bliss the elves in Middle Earth might enjoy. They are effectively called back to Valinor, the last more or less untainted piece of the universe so they my live, create and grow until the end of time.

So it’s not really death, it’s more like the Golden Door Spa?

@DSYoungEsq

choie, Denethor wants to burn Faramir with him for two reasons: 1) he thinks Faramir has had it anyway, and will die of the Morgul wound he has received (usually true, since Aragorn the True King wasn’t around to save such people), and 2) he thinks Minas Tirith and Gondor are toast, so why bother to live? This latter part I cannot recall how well the movie makes clear, but Denethor has one of those nifty Palantir things, and as such, has been tricked by Sauron into seeing all sorts of death, doom and destruction about to rain down on his wonderful city. And Denethor (or as you prefer, FUD :p) is a prime subscriber to the concept that Gondor is the only important place left in Middle Earth. If Gondor goes, everything goes and life ain’t worth living.

Er … Palantir … is that what the orb thing was?

Even if this is true, wouldn’t it have been more humane to use a sword rather than, like, immolation, which is only the most painful form of death there is? Hey, don’t get me wrong, if Denethor’s miserable and wants to go out in a literal blaze of glory, goody for him, but does he really have to burn his helpless boy while he’s at it?

I said FUD and I meant FUD.

@kenobi_65

Well, that’s one reason to watch the Extended Version. For, Saruman’s fate is different still there.

Different from the book tale you related earlier? Cool. Happily the Extended Version is available on “Watch Instantly” on Netflix, so I don’t have to wait too long.

Not really. Arwen is practically a non-entity in the book; PJ increased her role dramatically in the movies, by comparison.

Well, considering the decided lack of estrogen, I can’t say I’m surprised. Eowyn more than made up for it in the last film though. She’s totally my girlcrush.

That’s pretty much accurate. He never really recovers from the various pains he suffered during the journey (the Morgul-knife wound, the physical and psychological torment from bearing the Ring).

Sad. He didn’t seem to have a life outside of the Ring journey, unlike the other hobbits. In a way it seems that he knew his story was over.

@StGermain

I’m no Lord of the Rings scholar, but this is how it appears to me.

Regarding Frodo, in FOTR, after Frodo is stabbed, Gandalf says that he’ll never bo truly well. That foreshadows his leaving the Shire. It also reminds me of Moses saving the Israelites and yet not baing allowed into the land of milk and honey.

Mmm I like that comparison. And I’d forgotten Gandalf said that about the wound, so it certainly does foreshadow his never healing (physically or mentally) from the experience.

Well, of my favorite characters in LOTR, three made it (Eowyn, Faramir and Pippin) and two didn’t (Boromir and Frodo). That’s pretty good, for me. Hell, that’s positively miraculous. (I was 0 for 3 in Harry Potter!)

@BigT

I’ve yet to get my hands on the books, so I didn’t know how long the Scouring was. I, like choie, just wanted to see a proper end to Saruman. The way the movies ended, it seems like Saruman could come back any time.

Yes, that’s it exactly. In fiction, you don’t end your villain’s reign offstage with a line of dialogue. That is just begging for a Shocking Comback in the finale!

[jsc1953]

@choie

But when you say ‘ancestor’, how far back are we talking? For that matter, what’s the timeline again for a) when the Ring was lost, b) when Smeagol found the Ring, and c) when Bilbo nabbed it?

Isildur lost the ring in the year 2 of the Third Age. Gollum found it in 2463. Bilbo nabbed it in 2941. Ring destroyed on March 25, 3019.

Now, re: the eagles. They’re really not magic? They seemed way bigger than normal eagles, though. They picked up the halflings with one foot! I know hobbits are small but they ain’t that wee. Plus, Gandalf seemed to open a locket or something and allowed a teensy little eagle fly out, which appeared to turn into a big mofo on its own. Or am I misunderstanding what happened? Maybe this is just the movie and in the book they’re normal eagles?

Well, they’re not eagles as we know them. They are enormous, and (oh by the way), they talk, although not in the film. That wasn’t a teensy eagle; that was a moth. Peter Jackson’s invention, so I can’t refer to the book for an explanation, but we first saw the moth/eagle connection in the first movie, where Gandalf was imprisoned on top of Orthanc. He captures a moth and talks to it; presumably suggesting that the moth go find an eagle (named Gwaihir, btw) so he can make his escape. The moth makes a reappearance in the climactic battle – presumably the moth has taken a gig working full-time as Gwaihir’s herald.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

“Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn’ Ambar-metta!"

"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place I will abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.”

That’s what Elendil said when he washed up on the shores of northern Middle-Earth after the Wreck of Numenor.

I recited the elvish lines back in the mid 90’s when I swam out of Lake Michigan to claim my inheritance, the family farm on the shoreline.

[sub]Granted I swam into Lake Michigan from the same family farm on the shoreline, which was already mine by right. But it made for such a moment, y’know?[/sub]
And the actor who played Pippin may have written the melody, but the lyrics were written by JRRT.

[DSYoungEsq]

Are the lyrics all by him? I recognize some of them as being taken from one of the songs in the book, but it seems to me that they then vary from that song… But it’s been a while since I had the books out.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

In the book, Faramir succeeded his mad father (the FUD ;)) as Steward of Gondor at the new King’s insistence, after ceremonially offering to relinquish the post. He also became Prince of Ithilien, “the greatest noble after Dol Amroth [the prince of which is featured in the book a little, but not at all in the movies] in the revived Numenorean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, [and] not a ‘market-garden job’ as you term it,” Tolkien wrote to a critical reader in an undated letter thought to be from around 1963. He added that Faramir “would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants…” Tolkien also answered criticism of Faramir’s and Eowyn’s whirlwind courtship by saying, essentially, that love can bloom very quickly in times of great crisis, and among such noble folk. (See The Letters of JRRT, No. 244, ed. by Humphrey Carpenter). Incidentally, Tolkien told a friend in 1956 that he saw himself most like Faramir of all the characters in LOTR, “except that I lack [his] courage” (Letters, No. 180).

Aragorn’s words upon his crowning were in Quenya: “Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn Ambar-metta.” This means, “Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.” The great king Elendil, Aragorn’s many-greats-grandfather, said this when he first landed and became the key leader of the survivors of the downfall of Numenor. (Viggo M. wrote the music to which the words were set in the movie, incidentally). See it again here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18_4-B0SXbY

ETA: Qadgop beat me to it, of course!

[Tamerlane]

@choie

The who with the what now?

Shelob = Lady Giant Spider, who Gollum spent the end of TTT muttering darkly about. Actually not a spider, but some ancient spirit is “spider form” apparently, yet another somewhat diminished descendant of Morgoth’s ( Sauron’s old boss ) lineup of uber-baddies ( he had all the very best werewolves, dragons, evil spider spirits and balrogs - only the evolution of the fighting Uruk-Hai seems to have surpassed his original minions ). She’s actually a bit more intimidating in the books as I recall.

Speaking of Morgoth, my uber-nerdy favorite bit of minutia from the third movie is the inclusion of the Orcs chanting “Grond, Grond” as the giant battering ram slams into Gondor. The original Grond having been Morgoth’s favorite mace he used for beating up elves - the siege engine was named after it. For all PJ changed, that little bit of included trivia warmed my geeky heart :D.

[kenobi_65]

@Qadgop_the_Mercotan

I don’t recall this being explicit in JRRT’s writings. Did I miss something?

As Prince of Ithilien, I’m not sure Faramir’s writ would even run to Osgiliath. He got to settle Ithilien with its lovely woods, caves and waterfalls but I don’t remember him being tasked with reconstruction of that city.

No, just my mistake. You’re correct.

[kenobi_65]

@Tamerlane

Shelob = Lady Giant Spider, who Gollum spent the end of TTT muttering darkly about. Actually not a spider, but some ancient spirit is “spider form” apparently, yet another somewhat diminished descendant of Morgoth’s ( Sauron’s old boss ) lineup of uber-baddies ( he had all the very best werewolves, dragons, evil spider spirits and balrogs - only the evolution of the fighting Uruk-Hai seems to have surpassed his original minions ). She’s actually a bit more intimidating in the books as I recall.

IIRC, she’s described in the book as the final remaining descendant of Ungoliant, an even-more-malevolent spider-spirit and servant of Morgoth.

[kenobi_65]

@choie

I don’t suppose there’s anything more of them in the Director’s cut, huh?

I think there may be a little bit of the two of them together in the House of Healing, where both of them stayed while the army of the West marched off to the Black Gate…but I may be mistaken.

@choie

So a different version of Elvish than they were speaking throughout the film?

Yes. “Elf-Latin” is a good descriptor of Quenya; it’s the language of the elves who originally went West, and, by the third age, is pretty much a dead language in Middle-Earth. The “Elvish” that’s heard in the rest of the movie is called Sindarin.

@choie

Er, some of these are blending together in my mind. Which charge of the Rohirrim? The one with the king and Eowyn as they fought against the orcs and later the elephants?

Yup. Not only do I love that charge, but I also love the speech that Theoden gives as they’re about to embark on the charge, riding down the ranks, striking their spears with his sword.

@choie

The Army of Evil … were these the ghosties or do you mean the bad guys? Yeah as you see, I’m still kinda slow.

I believe he’s referring to the orcish army filing out of Minas Morgul, which Frodo, Sam, and Gollum watched file past as they were up above them in the pass of Cirith Ungol.

@choie

Er … Palantir … is that what the orb thing was?

Yup. Saruman had one (it had been placed in Isengard), as did Denethor…and as did Sauron.

The palantiri were created by the Noldor, and seven of them were given to the Numenoreans, and were later brought to Middle-Earth by Elendil when Numenor fell. They could be used to see other places and times, and could also be used to communicate with people near another palantir.

When Sauron’s forces captured the Gondorian city of Minas Ithil (later renamed Minas Morgul), Sauron gained the palantir that had been in that city.

@choie

Different from the book tale you related earlier? Cool. Happily the Extended Version is available on “Watch Instantly” on Netflix, so I don’t have to wait too long.

Yup, different still from the story in the book. I honestly don’t know why they didn’t use the scene, as shot, in the theatrical release.

[choie]

@jsc1953

Isildur lost the ring in the year 2 of the Third Age. Gollum found it in 2463. Bilbo nabbed it in 2941. Ring destroyed on March 25, 3019.

So Gollum had it for five hundred years? No wonder he went bonkers. Out of curiosity, would the ring have given him any powers or told him to do anything? With Frodo, it was apparently ‘calling’ for Frodo to bring it to Mordor to be reunited with Sauron. Why didn’t it do the same to Gollum?

Well, they’re not eagles as we know them. They are enormous, and (oh by the way), they talk, although not in the film. That wasn’t a teensy eagle; that was a moth. Peter Jackson’s invention, so I can’t refer to the book for an explanation, but we first saw the moth/eagle connection in the first movie, where Gandalf was imprisoned on top of Orthanc. He captures a moth and talks to it; presumably suggesting that the moth go find an eagle (named Gwaihir, btw) so he can make his escape. The moth makes a reappearance in the climactic battle – presumably the moth has taken a gig working full-time as Gwaihir’s herald.

Huh. Okay I totally forgot that part of FOTR. Blush. Also I’ll be danged if that moth in ROTK didn’t look like a wee eagle or hummingbird to me!

@Elendil_s_Heir

In the book, Faramir succeeded his mad father (the FUD ;)) as Steward of Gondor at the new King’s insistence, after ceremonially offering to relinquish the post. He also became Prince of Ithilien, “the greatest noble after Dol Amroth [the prince of which is featured in the book a little, but not at all in the movies] in the revived Numenorean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, [and] not a ‘market-garden job’ as you term it,” Tolkien wrote to a critical reader in an undated letter thought to be from around 1963. He added that Faramir “would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants…” Tolkien also answered criticism of Faramir’s and Eowyn’s whirlwind courtship by saying, essentially, that love can bloom very quickly in times of great crisis, and among such noble folk. (See The Letters of JRRT, No. 244, ed. by Humphrey Carpenter). Incidentally, Tolkien told a friend in 1956 that he saw himself most like Faramir of all the characters in LOTR, “except that I lack [his] courage” (Letters, No. 180).

Oh sure, you can quote chapter and verse but if you can’t include footnotes I must think very meanly on your posts.

Seriously – you impress the hell out of me. Thank you for the detailed response! And can I just say that it’s nice recognizing the origin of your screenname at last! I’ve mentiond this elsewhere in the thread, but it bears repeating that I can’t believe how many more references I get now that I have at least a minor passing understanding of LOTR.

@Tamerlane

Shelob = Lady Giant Spider, who Gollum spent the end of TTT muttering darkly about. Actually not a spider, but some ancient spirit is “spider form” apparently, yet another somewhat diminished descendant of Morgoth’s ( Sauron’s old boss ) lineup of uber-baddies ( he had all the very best werewolves, dragons, evil spider spirits and balrogs - only the evolution of the fighting Uruk-Hai seems to have surpassed his original minions ). She’s actually a bit more intimidating in the books as I recall.

Oh, her! Oh GOD. To then answer the original question, what did I think of Shelob? ICK. When I saw Frodo noting the stickiness of the tunnel my heart sank in dread 'cause I knew what was coming. (Though I did find it amusing to think there’s something a bit Freudian about Frodo getting skeeved out by a woman’s lair in a sticky tunnel. Not that it surprised me, mind.) Seriously, it was an amazingly scary battle. Reminded me of Half Life 2: Episode 2, actually – running for [del]my[/del] Gordon’s life from the Antlion Guardian in the tunnels.

Speaking of Morgoth, my uber-nerdy favorite bit of minutia from the third movie is the inclusion of the Orcs chanting “Grond, Grond” as the giant battering ram slams into Gondor. The original Grond having been Morgoth’s favorite mace he used for beating up elves - the siege engine was named after it. For all PJ changed, that little bit of included trivia warmed my geeky heart :D.

Yet another thing I got completely wrong. I thought they were shouting the word for “Gondor” in Orcian language. I R dumb.

@kenobi_65

I think there may be a little bit of the two of them together in the House of Healing, where both of them stayed while the army of the West marched off to the Black Gate…but I may be mistaken.

HELLS yeah! That’s good to hear.

BTW, I just went crazy and ordered the Special Platinum Extended 12-disc set of the trilogy. So that oughtta tell you how much I enjoyed this outing – I’m willing to see 600+ minutes of this sucker.

Yup. Not only do I love that charge, but I also love the speech that Theoden gives as they’re about to embark on the charge, riding down the ranks, striking their spears with his sword.

Yes I loved that! I forgot to mention the “toast” effect of clinking spears (like clinking glasses) – is that from the books or is this something historical kings did before battles for luck/benediction/support?

Bernard Hill (Theoden) was fabulous. Not only was his acting marvelous, but he looked just perfect for a strong king with so much life and experience written in the lines of his face.

The palantiri were created by the Noldor, and seven of them were given to the Numenoreans, and were later brought to Middle-Earth by Elendil when Numenor fell. They could be used to see other places and times, and could also be used to communicate with people near another palantir.

Kinda like a fax machine. So Pippin picked up the palantir and was getting ‘messages’ or visions from Sauron, correct? And that’s what was driving FUD mad as well? That puts him in a slightly better or at least more understandable light, but still, he was an asshat.

Yup, different still from the story in the book. I honestly don’t know why they didn’t use the scene, as shot, in the theatrical release.

I’m glad there’s some closure to be found. As I said, that was my biggest let-down in ROTK. You don’t make your villains Christopher Lee and Brad Dourif in a film and not kill 'em off good and proper!

I’m really looking forward to rewatching the Extended Editions. Although I inadvertently already saw the EE of LOTR, so that one I don’t have to watch again. (I will for the commentary, though. I loves me some commentary!)

[Tamerlane]

@choie

Kinda like a fax machine. So Pippin picked up the palantir and was getting ‘messages’ or visions from Sauron, correct? And that’s what was driving FUD mad as well? That puts him in a slightly better or at least more understandable light, but still, he was an asshat.

This actually falls into the category of minor changes PJ made in the movie that I didn’t care for. While I buy PJ’s slight alteration of Faramir ( much decried in some circles ), I think he kinda gave Denethor the shaft. While he wasn’t exactly super-sympathetic in the book, he was more so than in the movie - a great warrior king brought low by despair. If you don’t mind very minor book-spoilers, this wikipedia article on Denethor goes into this just a bit.

[DigitalC]

As another big fan of Eowyn let me just say you are going to love the extended version of ROTK.

[well_he_s_back]

Oh Choie, Hi! I’ve been caught up in actual real life & have not been able to attend to your questions. Glad the real experts took care of you. You did ask what we all thought of the 3rd film, so here goes:
Yes it was choppy, just not as well adapted and edited as the other two. As a film adaptation FOTR is definitely my fav. That being said, there were still parts of ROTK I adore -
Aragorn turning and saying “For Frodo”; Frodo crawling up Mount Doom; Pippin rescuing Faramir; Faramir’s heartbreak when he leaves his father; the design of Minas Tirith; Eomer during the charge of the Rohirrim; Merry & Pippin being separated; Arwen’s vision of her son…
I’ll stop there.
My biggest disappointment (I won’t list them all) is the way Frodo’s character comes off as such a wimp in the films. In the book I saw him as heroic, with his sacrifice of not being able to recover from his wounds all the more tragic. Well, maybe my biggest disappointment is the elimination of the Scouring of the Shire, since thematically it is so important to the meaning and resonance of the whole shebang. And gosh darn it, as wonderful as Eowyn v. the WitchKing was in the film, it - along with Merry’s role, and the Eowyn/Faramir romance - was so much better in the book. (as was Denethor’s character, as has already been noted).

[BigT]

@Tamerlane

[snip]
If you don’t mind very minor book-spoilers, this wikipedia article on Denethor goes into this just a bit.

I’m pretty sure this entire thread is made up of (at least) minor book-spoilers!

[TWDuke]

“The Hobbit” spoiler ahead.

@choie

So Gollum had it for five hundred years? No wonder he went bonkers. Out of curiosity, would the ring have given him any powers or told him to do anything?

It extended his life and gave him invisibility, which he used for petty evil. “He used it to find out secrets, and he put his knowledge to crooked and malicious uses. He became sharp-eyed and keen-eared for all that was hurtful. The ring had given him power according to his stature.” He didn’t have the ambition or the strength of will to do more with it.

@kenobi_65

IIRC, she’s described in the book as the final remaining descendant of Ungoliant, an even-more-malevolent spider-spirit and servant of Morgoth.

Shelob was Ungoliant’s last surviving offspring, but the spiders that captured the dwarves in “The Hobbit” were descendants of Ungoliant, through Shelob. (That was a bit of a retcon on JRRT’s part, as he didn’t write them with any link to Ungoliant in mind. He just put them in the story because one of his kids was afraid of spiders!)

[MrDibble]

@kenobi_65

From Gandalf’s past (off-camera) visits to Minas Tirith.

There was one on-camera visit in FoTR.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@choie

…Oh sure, you can quote chapter and verse but if you can’t include footnotes I must think very meanly on your posts.

Seriously – you impress the hell out of me. Thank you for the detailed response! And can I just say that it’s nice recognizing the origin of your screenname at last! I’ve mentiond this elsewhere in the thread, but it bears repeating that I can’t believe how many more references I get now that I have at least a minor passing understanding of LOTR…

Glad to help. I couldn’t have provided footnotes off the top of my head, but after pulling my copy of Carpenter’s book off the shelf it didn’t take long to find the key passages on Faramir. I highly recommend the Carpenter book, BTW - Tolkien had a long and lively correspondence with friends and readers after LOTR was published, and answered virtually every question anyone (then or now) ever thought to ask about it. For a Tolkien fan, it’s the next best thing to sitting down with the author over a pint and asking him yourself.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@Elendil_s_Heir

Tolkien…answered virtually every question anyone (then or now) ever thought to ask about it.

Oh, how I wish!

He answered a lot, but many other questions never got asked, and many of his answers only raised more new questions.

[Shot_From_Guns]

@kenobi_65

Bloom was pretty much an unknown before these movies.

IIRC, he wasn’t just an unknown actor–he was hired straight out of acting school.

[TWDuke]

Although he had acted on screen a few times before, including a small role in “Wilde” as a male prostitute (sorry, no nudity or simulated sex involved) and guest starring as a womanizing thief in an episode of “Midsomer Murders.”