Ah ha! He gets a pitch fork in the chest! I’d forgotten that one.
Yes, there was, though, if Gandalf interacted with Faramir during that visit, it wasn’t shown on screen.
TWDuke’s answer works, but also remember that Sauron and the Ring are tied to each other. (Sauron invested some of his magic, and his will into the One Ring.)
After the Ring was hacked off Sauron’s hand at the end of the Second Age, Sauron lost a lot of power and became incorporeal for a couple millenia. During this time, I like to think of the Ring as “hibernating”. It didn’t twist Gollum as much, because it didn’t have a need to drive Gollum anywhere.
Sauron came back into material form (first as an alternate identity of “the Necromancer”, then more openly), and Bilbo found the Ring. Indeed, I assume that the Ring “wanted” to abandon Gollum, as Gollum was a little too twisted and loopy, and probably would never want to part with it. (I do not assume the Ring, itself, was sentient.)
Once Bilbo carried it away, the Ring lay dormant again for a time, while Sauron continued to rebuild his strength (both within himself, as well as fortifying Mordor and recruiting more Gondor-fodder).
As Sauron came closer to making his play for Middle-Earth, the Ring became more “active” in it’s corrupting power, and it’s effects on the bearer (now Frodo) and the folks nearby to him.
I haven’t read all this, but I had to say, choie, your enthusiasm was quite infectious and I had to go re-watch RotK. I love that movie.
It’s complicated… It isn’t what you would call sapient, but it does have a will and malice. In effect, it can’t think, but it can want things. It “deliberately” got itself lost by Gollum, but it did not intend to be found by Bilbo specifically-- That was a moment of Fate, or Destiny, or divine intervention, or however you want to describe it.
It also slipped off Isildur’s finger at just the right moment (from its perspective) for him to be seen by orcs and pincushioned with arrows. It definitely had will and malice, even if it couldn’t “think.”
I think the Ring’s malice actually contributed to its own destruction. Just as it betrayed Isildur to his death and later Gollum to lose it, it betrayed Gollum one last time; Smeagol swore by the Ring to serve Frodo and then violated that oath. The Ring punished Gollum as Frodo said he should be punished if he were ever to try to recover it at Frodo’s expense. Unfortunately for the Ring, this involved its own destruction. But then, ‘oft evil will shall evil mar.’* I think that Tolkien believed that Evil was at base stupid, or at the very least short-sighted.
- You wouldn’t believe how many times I had to reread that sentence the first time I read the books, trying to make sense out of a sentence with two verbs in sequence. I finally realized that “will” was a noun. :smack:
To quote J.R.R. Tolkein himself, in The Fellowship of the Ring:
Gandalf, speaking to Frodo, in Chapter Two: The Shadow of the Past
Given that Gandalf is what he is, this passage has a very deep meaning. I believe Gandalf is saying that, at some level, this isn’t just chance that put the Ring in the possession of Bilbo, then Frodo. Some outside agency was working to put the Ring in Frodo’s hand. such an agency had to be either Manwe and the Valar, or Eru Iluvatar (God Himself), acting from outside the bounds of Arda. I’ve often wondered which of the two Gandalf means here.
ETA: Damn Jackson’s hide for changing this scene! I’d have LOVED to have heard much more of this exposition in Ian McKellan’s voice, etc. Even now, in my head, Gandalf’s voice sounds like his. 
Denethor was a victim of all the compromises that PJ had to make in terms of what to trim, what to emphasize, what to streamline, etc. It was the longest of the 3 films (both editions I believe), and he still didn’t have enough time to do the plot and the themes full justice. Given more of a backstory, Denethor (loved the “FUD” moniker BTW 
) would have become more sympathetic, rather than just a raving cardboard madman (and that’s with the EE flashback scene in TTT).
I don’t think the Valar were even capable of such subtle manipulations. Usually, when they get involved, the end result is the number of continents changing, or the like. Which pretty much just leaves Eru, making that one of only three references to Him in the trilogy.
Yeah, that move had Eru’s fingerprints all over it. Definitely outside of the Music.
The whole “Arwen’s fate is tied to the ring” from the movie is a bit silly and certainly takes little from the book. If it seems like it doesn’t make much sense, it’s because it doesn’t, through no fault of the source material!
Arwen is not an active participant in the main text of the books; although she does do one fairly important thing, she does it through her two brothers (Elladan and Elrohir, who have a small role in the books and are not mentioned in the movie). Arwen’s story is told in “The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen” Appendix A to ROTK; the vision of Elrond for the end of Arwen’s life is lifted directly from the Tale - since everything he sees in fact comes to pass in the books, I suppose you might call it a true vision.
[After the death of Aragorn]
*But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.
There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her grave until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea."
*
A beautiful passage. The description of Aragorn’s death, just before it, is also very powerful.
Some other things we didn’t get to see in the movies, that Decipher Games captured with the help of Weta:
Tom Bombadil: LotR TCG Wiki: Tom Bombadil, The Master (P) (0P53)
Goldberry: LotR TCG Wiki: Goldberry, River-daughter (9R+51)
Elladan: LotR TCG Wiki: Elladan, Son of Elrond (14R2)
Elrohir: LotR TCG Wiki: Elrohir, Son of Elrond (14R3)
Radagast: LotR TCG Wiki: Radagast, The Brown (P) (0P51)
I know – I could never get tired of reading it.
No bonus to horsemanship*? For shame!
*Elrohir, meaning = “elvish horseman.”
Since you’re getting the extended versions, one scene to look for in TTT has Faramir, Boromir, and Denethor all together right after Boromir took back Osgiliath. The old man runs down his “lesser” son, Boromir sympathises with him, and sticks up for him to their father, but it makes no difference (the putz). Denethor then sends Boromir off on an errand to Elrond’s house, and you last see is him riding off with that round shield on his back.
And, yes in the extended version ROTK you get some hint why Faramir and Eowyn were making goo-goo eyes at each other during the coronation.
PJ and his two kids have cameos in all three movies. I’ll spoiler them in case you want to hunt for yourself.
[spoiler]FOTR: The two kids are in the group of urchins enthralled by Bilbo’s story about the trolls during the party. PJ is the guy munching on a carrot and belching in the Bree street scene.
TTT: The kids are fearfully hiding in the cavern below Helm’s Deep as the orc horde marches up. PJ is in mail on the wall, hurling a large rock down on the assembled orcs.
ROTK: The kids are in the crowd watching Faramir and his troop pass by for their last charge. PJ is the corsair skewered by Legolas’ arrow, thanks to a little help from Gimli (extended version only).[/spoiler]
There’s also a funny little scene with Aragorn and Eowyn in the EE to The Two Towers indicating that the shield-maiden of Rohan, for all of her many other qualities, wasn’t much of a cook. 
After reading the Wikipedia article I certainly and reluctantly concur that he’s much more sympathetic in his original version. Plus, not as much of an idiot (e.g. PJ having him not light the beacons on his own). And yet I kinda like the FUD version from the film. There’s something Shakespearean or Greek tragedy-esque about his villainy, with the rapacious appetite just after sending his unliked son on a suicidal mission, the willingness to immolate himself and the aforementioned son… Gothic opera at its finest.
I can’t wait to see the EE for the Denethor/Boromir/Faramir interaction – nothing I love more than a juicy, ugly family dynamic, and besides, Sean Bean and David Wenham together??? Hormones go 'splodey!
Well, he’s back! 
I was wondering where you’ve been – you were such the knight gallant throughout this thread, a staunch defender of my spoiler-free maidenhood. I greatly appreciate that, and I’m glad to see you here.
I forgot about Aragorn yelling “For Frodo!” – mainly 'cause at first I didn’t understand what he said. Only 'cause I wasn’t expecting the Frodo reference; aside from the scene where Gandalf and Aragorn discuss whether Frodo’s still alive, and Pippin asking Faramir about the other halfling he’s met, the differing quests seemed rather unconnected at times. Anyway, once I realized what Aragorn and the others were yelling, I was touched and inspired.
Yeah, I’ll have to agree with you there. I kept hoping to see less damsel-in-distressy stuff from Frodo. I knew the Ring was taking a lot out of him, but the guy was constantly falling down and clutching his chest and getting all weepy and unable to complete ____ without Sam or even freakin’ Gollum dragging him up … Mind you, Frodo was the character whom I most sympathized with, but I really wanted more instances of him rising in stature and showing more strength. Instead of the Ring Bearer being the most heroic, it was the Ring Bearer Bearer (Sam) who got all the acts of heroism. Maybe that’s the point, of course. When it came to Shelob I was really hoping Frodo would get a few more licks in before Sam inevitably came to his rescue.
This reminds me of another nit I had. At the end, with the “You bow to no one” line, I remember thinking: Okay, that’s true for Frodo and Sam, considering all they accomplished, but why are Merry and Pippin so exalted? They didn’t do anything all that special (I mean compared to the rest of the Fellowship). Didn’t seem fair that they got the same praise as the two guys who saved the whole flippin’ world did.
(Admittedly it would’ve been awkward if Merry and Pippin started to bow, then stood up at Aragorn’s line, only for Aragorn to say, “Oh, oops, sorry, I wasn’t talking to you. You two still have to bow.”)
Ewww. So he was even more of a rat than he seemed. What a petty use for such an important item! The ring must’ve been muttering to itself, “here I am, brain the size of a planet, and I’m being used as a tool for a lot of proto-hobbit gossip…”
Answering FAQs from beyond the grave? Now that is a conscientious author!
OMG what? I saw Wilde way back when. Is he just in the scene with the other rent boys or does he get a few lines? Gosh, and I thought Jude Law was the only real eye candy in the movie. Gonna have to take another looksee.
Yeah, I’d’ve remembered that.
Thank you (and everyone!) for the extra, edifying info as always! Is this from The Lord of the Rings or is this strictly from The Hobbit? How much, if at all, does LOTR include the backstory from Hobbit?
Speaking of the ring and its hold on Frodo: I must admit I was disappointed that – unless I’m misreading the activity at Mt. Doom (always a likelihood) – after all his trevails and the build-up, Frodo didn’t actually do what he was supposed to; it seemed like utter luck that Gollum and the ring went over into the lava. Frodo didn’t intentionally push Gollum and the ring in, he just wanted to grab the ring back. To me that’s a rather significant failure on our hero’s part. Or am I misunderstanding the final fight at the end?
Thematically I understand that the ring continued to transfix Frodo and he wasn’t strong enough to beat it. But I would’ve liked him to have that triumph of realization at the end of his journey and reject the ring’s hold, being able to push Gollum in himself. Probably makes me woefully shallow but there ya go.
Wow, that is a compliment! Wonderful to hear. Would you say this is your favorite of the three movies?
On looking back I think this might be my favorite, but again, I’ll need to see the other two for a fairer judgment. LOTR was all so new to me and I wasn’t as connected to the characters, naturally; TTT and ROTK were very close in my mind. But I think the Pippin, Eowyn, Merry and FUD/Faramir arcs from ROTK must perforce push ROTK into favorite territory. I was so much more invested by this time that everything was that much more intense and exciting.
She what??? Oh … yowsa … boy did I initially read that sentence wrong!
But seriously. Reading your quote, I’m a little confused again. I thoght Arwen gave up her immortality. So why is she living such a ridiculously long life after Aragorn finally dies (and as I understand it, he lives a pretty long life himself anyway)?
choie’s eyes widen as she dashes to check her inbox for delivery notification of the EE disks. Then does it again five minutes later…
Interesting info about PJ and his kids! How very cool and I can’t say I blame him for inserting himself (especially so unobtrusively) into what will undoubtedly be considered his masterpiece.
Thank you to everyone, as ever, for the interesting and enlighting stuff.
Don’t mention it. We’re always glad to induct another disciple at the Shrine of the Professor!
Just because you’re going to die eventually, doesn’t mean you have to be in a hurry about it. Elros, Aragorn’s distant ancestor (and Arwen’s distant great-great-…-great-uncle) chose to be counted among the mortals, and he lived for 500 years; Aragorn himself lived to be 210 (and was already 80-something at the time of the books). Arwen was of course much older than Aragorn when they met, but she died very shortly after him.
Immortality is immortality. You live forever. Mortality is mortality. You die eventually.
But in Middle Earth there is a very wide range of mortality. Aragon’s ancestor Elros Half-Elven, the first king of Numenor, lived 500 years, presumably as a result of all that high octane Elven blood. His descendants progressively declined, but still lived a damn long time. A detailed analysis of this.
Arwen may have given up that “I’m gonna live forever” high, but it wasn’t exactly cold turkey. She tapered ;).
ETA: Stupid fast Chronos :D.