Jedi Ethics (seriously)

Great Debates
1

The Jedi (or Jedi Knights) are a fictional group of people from a movie series called Star Wars. They are the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. They are adept at using/contacting a mystical energy called “The Force”. This allows them to perform many superhuman acts. However, “The Force” has a good and evil side to it. Only by strict control over negative emotion (fear, anger and hate) can a Jedi stay on the good side (light side).

So, in order to facilitate the training of future Jedi all children are tested for their ability to use the force. This test is done prior to the age of 1 so that the Jedi can teach the child to control their emotions early on. A baby who is discovered to have force potential is taken to the Jedi Academy for training. If a person is discovered to have force potential after the age of 1 they are almost always rejected as candidates to the Jedi Academy for fear that they will turn to the evil side of the force.

Now, the child in question has no choice on becoming a Jedi. They will simply be raised as a Jedi and they will become the galaxy’s police officer whether they like it or not (they will be raised to like). Being a Jedi is a great honor, and the Jedi are generally highly regarded throughout the galaxy. All Jedi descripe their lives as a difficult but rewarding.

The debate is: Is this right and ethical? The Jedi are very effective at keeping peace and justice, but at what cost? Innocent babies being taken from their families to be brainwashed, and forced into a life (albeit guarenteed rewarding) of law enforcement?

Should the doors to the Jedi Academy be forever closed since it is too risky to trainer older people and yet unethical to force the choice of being a Jedi on children?

2

Judging by that last Star Wars movie, I’d say the ethical thing would be to close the doors on George Lucas’ studio.

Up, up and away!

3

The Jedi System is far too precarious and dangerous for any reasonable society. The Jedi Knights are a body accountable only to themselves (i.e. who watches the watchers?), have far too much power, and view themselves as separate from and above the people who they police (witness: Qui-Gon Jin has no reservations about using his mind control powers to cheat merchants out of their wares, regardless of the consequences on said merchant). The only way that the Jedi Knight system works is if the Jedi themselves are completely and utterly trustworthy, and nobody should be trusted that much (especially people who acknowledge that they are in a constant struggle against the “dark side”, which has a tendency to make you wholly and completely evil).

The galaxy as a whole, it would seem, would be safer if nobody ever learned to “use the force”. Some people seem to be naturally gifted and the force is “strong with them”, but without training from Jedi (or others), they are rarely more dangerous than someone who is particularly lucky or particularly intelligent or particularly physically gifted. With training, they can become one-man death machines who can see the future, kill with a thought, and generally kick anybody’s ass.

Therefore, we are presented with two choices: Depend on the good will of an elite secret society with no accountability, or develop a “democratic” system wherein the agents of government are entrusted with authority because they have earned it, and can be stripped of it if they violate the will of the people.

If you accept that even a seemingly well-ordered Jedi Knight system is dangerous (or, at least, potentially dangerous), then it seems obvious that one shouldn’t separate children from their families in order to perpetuate it.

4

This reminds me of the Castrati.

5

It is a common theme in fantasy fiction to posit extraordinary abilities or powers to bring ethical dilemmas and philosophy into sharp relief.

To answer your original question, I have to agree with Erratum and say the training is unethical. We should feel fortunate that we don’t have this dilemma in ordinary reality.

He’s the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armor, shouting ‘All Gods are Bastards!’

6

Well, until women or minorities can become Jedi’s, I’d say the system generally sucks. :slight_smile:

7

Hey, there was a female of Yoda’s ultra-rare species on the Jedi Council in Episode 1, not to mention a human woman who appeared to be of Middle Eastern extraction.

But to clarify a few things from earlier posts:
The Jedi were hardly unaccountable. They are held to the highest standard…the Force itself and the other Jedi who embody it’s principles. Fail to toe the party line and they come down on you real quick. But within that framework there is a lot of leeway. Qui-Gon may use his abilities on Watto as long it serves the greater good to do so (and note that he wasn’t trying to rip him off, just get him to accept a form of currency that would have been a little harder to change).

And as for whether it is right to potentially put children in harm’s way by forcing the Jedi lifestyle on them: (If I may be allowed to don my Geeky Fanboy Disguise now) While it is not explicitly stated in the films, it has been shown in the countless books and comics that there are plenty of Jedi who do not act as the so-called Galactic Police. Rather, they are diplomats, artists, scholars, etc. My feeling is that the odds of anyone being born with Jedi potential is so astronomical (The SW galaxy has trillions of sentients, and maybe 25,000 Jedi at the order’s peak), that not letting that youngster be trained is a lot like Einstein not writing the Theory of Relativity because it cut into his hours working as a clerk.

“Don’t jive me, turkey!”

–John Shaft

8

I think the Jedi must be at least partly modelled on the “guardian class” postulated in Plato’s Republic–a society that was not in the least democratic, but rather ruled by a caste of superior philosopher-kings and enforced by an only slightly inferior class of guardians.

On Jedis and the Dark Side: "Then really and truly we may call these our perfect and complete guardians? They shall keep watch on enemies without and friends within . . . " asks Plato; however, he goes on to state, “The most dangerous and the ugliest thing possible for shepherds is to breed such dogs for attendance upon the flocks, and to keep them in such a manner, that license or hunger or any other evil passion may lead the dogs themselves to set upon and damage the flocks, and to be more like wolves than dogs . . . Then we must guarnd in every way that our assistants may not do anything of the sort to the citizens because they are stronger, and be more like savage masters than friendly allies.”

DHR

9

To steal a line from Spiderman

“With great power comes Great Responsibility”

this is accurate when in relation to the Jedi. the question of wether its ethical to use mind control to further an ideal, well, if it is for the greater good, then it is ethical.

I suppose that when they have been trained all their life to do good they wouldnt use it for personal gain, say, getting a cantina girl to do “Extra services above and beyond the call of duty”

well, at least one person wants to meet me…
http://fathom.org/polldata/pollcheck.adp?poll=dope-page5&question=62

Cheers!!

10

This pie-in-the-sky philosophical rambling is all well and good in an ideal universe, but the fact of the matter is that evil Jedi already exist! So to prevent the forces of good from being seriously compromised by well-trained and -financed evil jedi, this training process must exist, despite its encroachment on free will. Without it there is no free society anyway. Q.E.D.

I done run for president.
Didn’t win, though.

11

But the children are taken away from parents and taught to believe a certain way. This takes away from them the ability to choose what they want to do in life. They are only shown one road, so what else are they going to choose to do.

Choices of ones life should not be made by anyone except the one whose life it is. Do you want your parents to choose what you will do for a living? I know that I do not. What about the gov’t? They may feel from testing that you do not have what it takes to do a certain job, who knows, maybe you do and maybe you do not. But wouldn’t you like to try?

I am glad we are not at this point yet, and I hope we never get there for any area of our lives.

Jeffery

12

ubermax: “The Jedi were hardly unaccountable. They are held to the highest standard…the Force itself and the other Jedi who embody it’s principles.”

In other words, they police themselves, i.e. they are only accountable to themselves, i.e. if they choose to be unaccountable, they are, i.e. they are not accountable.

“and note that he wasn’t trying to rip him off, just get him to accept a form of currency that would have been a little harder to change”

So the Jedi are allowed to set their own exchange rates? I don’t remember the dialog exactly, but I believe that Watto’s opinion was that their “money” was worthless. If you were selling something to me, should I be the one to set the price and decide what currency to pay in?

Plato: “Then we must guarnd in every way that our assistants may not do anything of the sort to the citizens because they are stronger, and be more like savage masters than friendly allies.”

To continue the sheepdog analogy, when the dogs are stronger than the shepherd, the dogs are running the show. In any event, the system you propose has numerous other problems.

JohnLarrington: “the question of wether its ethical to use mind control to further an ideal, well, if it is for the greater good, then it is ethical.”

So the ends justify the means? Also, the person who is recieving the immediate benefit is also the person who determines if there is a long-term benefit? Forgive me if I find that questionable, and asking for an abuse of the system. In our society, we become very angry if our police force uses unethical means to convict criminals, why should we be more lenient with the Jedi? If anything, they should be held to a higher standard, since they are capable of meeting it.

“I suppose that when they have been trained all their life to do good they wouldnt use it for personal gain”

So we should blindly trust that everything will go smoothly? We should blindly trust that every Jedi is good and trustworthy? We have ample evidence that this is not the case.

Iago “So to prevent the forces of good from being seriously compromised by well-trained and -financed evil jedi, this training process must exist”

The Jedi Knights have lulled the Republic into a false sense of security. By depending on the whims of this capricious band of mystics rather than to a traditional police force, it has set itself up for disaster.

13

PunditLisa wrote:

I thought Samuel L. Jackson was a minority. (Well, if he weren’t living in a galaxy far, far away, he would be. :wink: )

With regards to Jedi ethics:

How come a knight that is trained “only to use his powers for defense, never for attack” is armed with one of the deadliest weapons in the galaxy?

14

They were just going to be taught to believe a certain way by their parents anyhow. Children don’t have much choice in how they’re brought up no matter who does it.

David Brin writes (well) about the politics of Star Wars in http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_main/index.html. He brings up a lot of interesting points, which I’ll summarize: Jedi as Ubermensch.

15

Yes, children are taught certain values, and ethics and such by their parents. But most children are able as they grow to choose their own path.

My parents would never have choosen for me to get into computers. They had no experience with them. I started with a computer and liked it and decided on a career in them. My sister chose to teach school, something my parents would not have choosen because this is what they have done as their careers. Now, was my sister affected by the way she was brought up? Sure. Had my parents been doctors she might have become a doctor. But it was our choice. While those choices are less than the possible whole of all choices, they are more than the limited choice of become a Jedi knight or become a Jedi knight.

Jeffery

16

Looking forward to that David Brin Link. The way I see it, the Jedi thing is an arms race. It’s like nuclear weapons, in that you need your own Jedi for deterrent value. Infinitely more complicated though, because you’re dealing with conscious individuals, with free will. But because of the restriction that training of a “good” jedi must start early, we need to toss these considerations out the window in order to maintain a Jedi force that won’t attrit with age. The fact that even dark side Jedi can sense those that are “strong in the force” illuminates the danger… if the good side doesn’t get 'em early, they can become weapons for the other side.

I done run for president.
Didn’t win, though.

17

So write, fax or e-mail your representative in the Galactic Senate and have him (her, it) support Chancellor Palpatine’s effort to erradicate the Jedi.

18

tracer:

As I’m sure a moment’s consideration will make clear, the lightsaber presents many more defensive capabilities than offensive. In the hands of a civillian, the saber would be dangerous but hardly “one of the deadlieat weapons in the galaxy”. I’d be afraid to cut my own extremities off. The saber’s parry and deflection abilities are showcased quite readily in the films, but as an offensive weapon, its range is limited to arms length, and a normal person with a saber would be mincemeat in seconds against any mouthbreather with a blaster.

The true weapon is the Jedi himself (or herself). You got a problem with that?

(God, I’m such a geek.)

I done run for president.
Didn’t win, though.

19

Doesn’t this strike anybody as a futuristic 2nd Amendment debate? Bumper stickers on the Millenium Falcon:

“The Force doesn’t kill people, Dark Jedi’s kill people.”

“When the Force is outlawed, only outlaws will have the Force.”

20

You guys are completely missing a underlying fact:

The Jedi were not unaccountable. They were under the obligation to obey the Senate. This quite obviously ceased to be after the Empire. One may argue that the Senate holds no ability to enforce their will upon the Jedi, but how is this any different than every society in history?

A parallel is clear in the US. The Military/Police are accountable to the executive and legislative branches of government. It is clear that the well trained, very well armed forces would have no opposition if they collectively choose to enforce their will independantly, but law and order keep the chain of authority in line.

This is no different than the Jedi order. The Senate is comparable to the powers that be in Washington, the Jedi council is analogous to the Pentagon/Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Jedi Knights are clearly similar to the Military/Police (if our local law enforcement were directly subject to the Military). The US does have a less linear chain of command, than I have illustrated, and one may argue that if could be a reason for or nations stability to date.

A second, more clear parallel is the Roman Republic. Their Senate, Generals and Legions offer a almost direct match to the Jedi system. They often had insurgences that illustrate the fear you have expressed, Roman Armies occasionally stormed Rome and over threw the Senate. While the dangers of the system are evident, no nation I am aware of has devised a better system.