Jesus Christ is god. Is it written in the gospels?

So, let’s see what this means. It is not important that Jesus talked about being the Messiah, which was part of Jewish tradition. That was really unimportant, since the Messiah did not have to be devine. He would just be a king that led his people to victory over their enemies. The important thing is that Paul, Luke, John and others realized that Jesus met the citeria for being the Greek Christ. I understand that Jesus knew this also because God knows everything. Is this correct?

Why then did Jesus come to us as a Jew and not as a Greek? Why was the O.T. that told of the Messiah, so important to Jesus?

Well, the Greek word Christos means pretty much the same thing as the word “Messiah”…a person annointed with oil, which is what you did when you made someone king…you poured oil over their head. It’s not that the Greeks had some concept of “Christ” that was different than the Hebrew concept of “Messiah”, it’s just that Greek speaking Jews would use the word “Christ” when referring to the messiah.

It seems like the concept of “Messiah as G-d” is just some sort of corruption of the standard concept of the messiah, but it uses the biblical texts…it just picks different ones and gives a different interpretation of what the messiah is supposed to be like.

The problem is that things are a bit ambiguous when it comes to Jesus’ claim of absolute divinity. If co-equal with God (being God himself) why say things like “I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I” and “But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father” (Both from the book of John)? If Jesus claimed he was coequal with the Father (being God), how could the Father have information that Jesus lacked?

Kniz, what exactly is a Greek Christ? The O.T. that told of the Messiah was important because Jesus came to teach the Jews, not the Gentiles. The Jewish people were anxious to get out from under the reign of Rome, and by claiming to be the Messiah, he could gain more followers. Unfortunately, it can be argued that Jesus did not fulfill any of the literal requirements of the Messiah (no peace on earth, everyone does not have knowledge of the law, all the Jews have not returned to Israel), so upon his death could no longer be considered the Messiah. Christians claim he will fulfil the actual prophecies on the Third Coming. However, Jews believe that the true Messiah will get it right the first time.

Very well handled.

AHunter, it may surprise you but traditional theology is not too far from your position. Jesus is, according to orthodox doctrine, “the only begotten Son of God*,” and the heirship that His followers have in the Kingdom of God is “by adoption and grace.” But yeah, you, me, and the rest are sons and daughters of God, through His intervention of atonement.

As noted, the concept of “how God was in Christ” is one that evolved over the first century – the earliest Christians seem quite willing to leave it at an unexamined “God was in Jesus the Christ” without attempting to define how, when, why, or wherefore. It’s in this context that kniz’s “Greek christ” becomes clear – the Messiah was/is/will be the person who leads the Jews back to a truer relationship with God and/or freedom from oppression. (Chaim Keller can speak to this concept more fully than I.) Mashiach in Hebrew simply meant “anointed one” – i.e., the leader anointed by God to save and free his people. Saul, David and his descendents, and Cyrus of Persia are referred to in scripture by this title, with that proximate meaning. As the Messiah concept evolved, however, it came to mean one who intervenes supernaturally to lead and free the Jews on the great and terrible Day of the Lord.

For the early Christians, Jesus turned the idea upside down on its head. He fulfilled it, not by promulgating the Torah or leading a war against the current empire-in-possession-of-Israel (Rome at the time), but by teaching an inner lordship of God within one (“The Kingdom of God is within you”) and by dying the torturous death of a criminal.

Christos in Greek means precisely the same as mashiach in Hebrew – literally, “one who is anointed.” The Hebrew and Greek for Psalm 23 would suggest that the Good Shepherd anoints each member of his flock’s head with oil. Because, however, the Greek Christians came to identify Jesus with the Messiah concept, turned upside-down and inside-out, He became for them the Christ.

As for the OP, I think that the only overt Scriptural Christology is in Paul’s letters, particularly Romans, and in Hebrews (probably not Paul’s work). But the Gospels, notably John, indicate a claim to unity of purpose and some mystical identity with God to which Jesus does lay claim, and it is simply a matter of injecting how this could be so into a metaphysical framework that gives rise to the doctrines of orthodox Christianity.

It is worth noting, too, that the terms for godhood used in Classical times were just a trifle more nebulous and diffuse than what we’d stand for today. E.g., while Augustus or Tiberius the Emperor were not divine, his genius – indwelling tutelary spirit – was. This was no more a contradiction in terms to the Romans, nor a trespass on the rights of Jupiter, Neptune, and the rest, than a military man’s insistence on Bush’s identity as Commander-in-Chief is today either subversive of military cohesiveness or a bar to his active membership in the Democratic Party. (That analogy sucks, but it’s the best that comes to mind.)

Well, it was also that the divine wasn’t seen to be exclusive…there’s not a conception of a single god in Roman theology, and Rome also had a tradition of deification. Romulus, the founder of Rome, for example, became a god after his disappearance. It was controversial, though, when Caligula announced that he was a god himself, instead of the senate declaring him/his genius a god after his death. That rubbed some people the wrong way.

And, as Poly said, the Roman concept of gods was nebulous and diffuse. Early Roman religion didn’t even like describing gods, believing that that limited them. After they took over Greece, the god concepts solidified somewhat, but there was still the idea that “Jupiter” wasn’t so much the Greek “Zeus”, but that both “Jupiter” and “Zeus” were attempts to understand some greater, sexless being or force that wasn’t bound by names, but that you could bargain with. It’s a hard thing to describe, and I’m not doing it justice now.

Evolved as supernatural intervention why? Seems to me that this idea evolved so quickly because this new faith differed so greatly from traditional Judaism at the time that it had no other choice. For those who believed that Jesus was the Christ so strongly, what other option did they have when he died ten to create a new faith? There were not great flocks of Jews following this new ideology and so the new faith targeted the Gentiles. Why not create a God-man to minister to those who already had this preconceived notion already? The ideas of both God-man and of the resurection-saviour were already existent in many of the cultures of the time.

Speaking not of what early, middle, or late Christians believe(d), nor of what Jesus of Nazareth himself believed, but of what I myself believe, I would say these things:

  1. Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God in the same way that I am, and my sister the Daugher of God. And, for that matter, in the same way that Madalyn Murray O’Hair is/was the Daughter of God, or that Osama bin Laden is/was the Son of God. Whether we rise to the occasion and act like it being pretty much beside the point.

  2. It is, however, important to point out that neither Madalyn, Osama, nor the Son of God who served me my burger and french fries at the fast food counter would be described by me as “Messiah”. In the case of Osama and Madalyn, they might disagree with that assessment (albeit with other words), i.e., they may believe that by virtue of the message they bring to humankind and the actions they take to convey it in our society, they are Special and are about the business of saving the world.

In the case of Jesus of Nazareth, I acknowledge him as Messiah because of the virtue of the message he brought, and the strategies and efforts and risks he took to convey it.

Like the Muslims and Jews, though, I have no room for any concept of a Once and Final Messiah, in addition to which (or after which) there can be no others.

Note also the emphasis on the message. If Jesus of Nazareth had merely been borne of a virgin, raised a handful of dead people to life, convinced a flock of fishies to hop into fishnets, walked on water, and came back after his death to speak with people up close and in person, that would not make him Messiah; it would not even necessarily make him a nice person. And if he did not in fact do any of these things (at least not in the glitzy magical supernatural sense in which they are described to us as children), that in no way makes him less of a Messiah, and I prefer to believe that such was the case, as all those freakin’ miracles and stuff just get in the way and confuse everything anyhow.

  1. Based on everything I understand (or think I understand) about Jesus of Nazareth, I think he’d be really pissed to find his persona standing metaphorically gilded at the front of the place of worship, and so much attention paid to Jesus the Guy Superior to Natural Forces and so little to the message delivered by Jesus the Messenger and Secretary to God the Father Almighty.

Just my opinion.

kniz said:

I didn’t want to imply that Jesus’s claims to be the Messiah nor any actions he undertook as part of his understanding of his Messianic vocation were not important. I was exclusively addressing the OP, which asks about Jesus’s claims to be God, if there were any.

While I stand by my above statement regarding the Messiah not needing to be divine, that in no way negates that aspect of Christ’s ministry. It was merely not part of the discussion at hand, and I chose not to muddy the waters by bringing in a discussion of fulfillment of Messianic prophesy.

Just to thank the people who responded to my question. I found the arguments given for the NT supporting the idea that Jesus is god pretty convincing (especially the beginning of John). Of course, the opposite arguments given by several posters (Thunderbug, for instance) are as valid. However as I said in my OP, I’m an atheist, so I’m not surprised at all that the scriptures contradict themselves. But at least, it seems that the christian belief can actually be backed by some evidences in the NT, as opposed to be just created out of thin air. Which was roughly what I wanted to know (of course, one could argue that the content of the NT itself has been created out of thin air, or modified to agree with the dogma, or whatever, but it wasn’t my point).

Of course I could have read again the NT, but I was quite sure that a lot of people here would be able to readily answer. Also, I’d probably not have noticed the evidences which aren’t absolutely obvious (like John, once again). Thanks again.

Just a wisecrack for which I’ll probably be sorry later, but one of my major problems with Neopaganism is that they can find a spark of the divine in any given tree or animal or rock or cloud, but object strenuously to others finding one in a particular First Century Jewish rabbi. :wink:

AHunter3 this reminds me of one of my favorite quotes. I’ve searched and cannot find it, so I will have to paraphrase.

“Christianity would be better served if it paid more attention to what Jesus said and did and less on how he came and went.” Will Rogers