Jewish history month.

Great Debates
61

Blonde Bomber would have us believe that she/he has no agenda, no overall point to make and no particular biases.

BB - if it is “piling on” to point out to someone that they present themselves in a biased manner, if it is “piling on” to point out to someone that they are perpetuating hateful stereotypes, and if it is “piling on” to point out factual errors, then guess what? – We are piling on.

I am old school on certain things - if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. I think you may be engaging in self delusion as you try to grapple with your own prejudices. Yes, we all have them to varying degrees, but, while IANA psychiatrist, some of us do lots better jobs of keeping our prejudices in check than you seem to be doing.

Hell, you couldn’t even bring yourself to apologize to me for insulting my late father:

This is a pretty crappy way of apologizing… the words “I am sorry” or " I was wrong" don’t even appear - you did manage to end with a “However.” If it was an apology, it is NOT accepted. Actually, if you must know, I really don’t care, just thought other readers of this thread would like to know how I felt about it since it was personal.

My earlier post to you suggested reading some more, and I gave you a specific recommendation. Evidently, you feel you have enough education in your life, and don’t need anymore. As for me and many others, we are not as smart as you, so we will probably need to read a lot more books before we die. Education is a bitch, but too much reading is something that the intellectual Jew does, right?

Finally, my previous post requested that you look in a mirror, long and hard. I suppose I was wasting my time suggesting that, as you seem to have a major resistance to self evaluation. That’s cool. It inflicts many people. It is a common enough affliction.

[sarcasm] Hell, I even wished you a Merry Christmas and you didn’t have the courtesy to respond in fashion. For the record, you don’t have to come up with any particluar spelling of Hannukah, I would have settled for a simple “Happy Holiday” [/sarcasm]

62

Gringo, my late father also served as a proud American. Funny story, he was in training for special forces but got kicked out when he finally lost his temper with a commanding officer and hauled off and slugged him. Turned out that saved his life, as a special forces officer his regiment would have been sent on a mission where virtually no one survived. As an infantry grunt he came out alive. Also, ironically enough, his knowing Yiddish put him in the position to translate German for the Unit and eventually got him placed as the military mayor of an occuppied town. Unfunny story, he was one of the first at the gates of Dacchau. Certainly it raised the importance of his Jewish identity for him. After that he was a Jew more than anything else. To him any Jew was family. Can’t say I wouldn’t have reacted the same way.

And a last aside to BB directly, I take after my father some … after your first post online I just ignored you, and then tried to engage when you began to tone down a little. In real life I might just have slugged you. I know that’s not pc, but oh well. (Please note, no actual current physical threat is in anyway implied, just a reality check of how offensive those rantings were.)

63

Regarding this claim of “piling on”, I think BB is just being oversensitive.

For his feelings to be validated, there would need to be support from others who do not share his heritage.
I suppose I could ask my father what he thinks. He’s an Army veteran. Pacific theater, WWII. Solomons, Guadalcanal etc.

I don’t think he’d be interested.

64

I found BB’s comments and observations quite offensive. Most Jewish people, which I am one, tend to be extra sensitive and have an almost culturally imposed ‘radar’ with regard to comments that could be perceived as anti-Semitic. My MIL is a holocaust survivor, so my ‘extra sense’ may be keener than most. I feel that BB crossed the line with many of his comments. My hackles get raised when any racial stereotype is mentioned along with ‘personal observations’.

The resources are available for anyone to enlighten himself, if the effort is made.

65

Forgive me if I missed it and someone has already nitpicked this point, but one of BB’s assertions is that the Nazis persecuted the Jews for religious reasons (‘not accepting Christ as the messiah’ I think the wording was). Even though they may have been riding on a wave of exisiting religiously-motivated anti-semitism, I have always understood that the Nazis’ stated reasons were that Jews were powerful and wealthy and part of a dangerous capitalist international conspiracy, and that they were communists and part of an equally dangerous communist international conspiracy at the same time.

Blonde Bomber - call me hypersensitive (as many did in the ‘my name’s Hitler’ thread) but doesn’t that screen-name have a certain ring to it?

And while we’re at it, maybe someone should tell BB that Blonde with an ‘e’ is a feminine adjective and that’s why everyone assumed he was a woman - if he is male he should in fact be the Blond Bomber.

66

Let’s stick to discussing the issues of the OP or other posts and leave comments about usernames out of this thread, OK?

[ /Moderating ]

67

But, to Gringo. I’m sorry. I’m also sorry for not saying “I’m sorry”. The truth is, I thought my apology was clear to you. I can say (or type) the words. I thought they were implied. If you didn’t see that, ok. My apology is sincere and stands. You do not have to accept it, and please don’t feel obligated to answer one way or the other in this thread. I honestly don’t care one way or the other if you accept it or not.

As to tomndebb, thank you for keeping this on topic. For the record, I don’t have blond hair. We pick user names for many reasons. Martha might be a man who is a big fan of Washington’s wife. Maybe it’s her name. The user name is irrelevant. I said I was a man simply to clarify the confusion in the thread.

As to the other things. All I will say is many of you have proven one point that is indisputable. You are as biased as anyone. Nothing in this world is absolute when it comes to human nature, unless you go to the basics of hunger, shelter, etc. So I try to find some answer in the grey. Some of you claim that I state things that others have used to justify their behaviors. Perhaps that’s true. But are the questions themselves above examination?

For example, I have an Indian friend (from the country of India). He was born here, speaks english, has a great education. Our mutual friends are a rainbow of flavors. He has confided in me, however, that his family is pressuring him to marry an Indian woman. He’s not attracted to Indian women. But the pressure is so great, he feels that unless he is willing to be disowned, or he wants to live alone, he will probably marry an Indian woman.

By relaying that story, does it make me racist? An anti-Indianite? If it does, then I don’t have the same definitions of these words as most of the Jews on this board. But I also know Jewish folks with similar stories… especially my Jewish female friends. Some of them have married non-jews at great personal family sacrifice. Others have married non-jews with no apparent fallout. The majority marry other Jews. To say that doesn’t imply you are “clannish”. It’s an observation. I get the same impression from the Greek culture in this country… admittedly, my personal sample set is small, but movies like “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” do nothing to stem the tide of these cultural characteristics. But I think it is human nature to be around people that are similar to you. Your family and social circles tend to be people of similar backgrouds. That’s life and it’s natural. But can you understand how someone who falls in love with a, say Greek person, and is not Greek themselves, and finds out that because of family pressures that person can’t marry you would see that culture as excluding them? Perhaps not understand and feel ostracized for no reason? And from that, build up an animosity toward that group? It doesn’t matter if it’s warranted… it’s how the person feels. As an extension, it’s how another group feels. It’s like a club that doesn’t want you to belong. You can’t join the fraternity. So resentment builds. If the pre-european Jews insulated themselves from the rest of the population, (if not economically, then socially), and were successful economically as a small minority, can you not admit that this is a perceived “behavior”? I’m not saying the reaction to the behavior is warranted, or it’s even a *bad * behavior. If it’s not a “behavior”, then, what is it? A trait? No, that sounds to genetic. A part of the “culture”? How do you define it?

Is it not at least *possibe * that a large group, of say, the average working Germans wouldn’t feel resentment if their economic situation weren’t as good as a group of Jews? My feeling is that it is not based on religion as much as other factor. Economic jealousy is one of those factors. The haves vs. the have-nots. That’s as old as time. Two cave groups separated by a hill will develop different cultures. If they happen on each other’s food source, my guess a fight would ensue before too long. After all, you have to take care of your own family/group/cavegang first. The loser will resent you.

I’m trying to understand about the European Jews and non-Jews pre-WWII. Beyond that, I’m trying to understand the Jewish culture from a religious and historical sense. I’m trying to understand why Jews have seemingly been singled out by a number of different populations. Does seeking an answer make me an anti-semite?

Throwing around things like “racist” or “anti-Semite” triggers an automatic response from people. The “attacked” feels like they need to defend. The “slurred” feels a need to pile on. Neither one is constructive.

FTR, I am pretty much non-denominational. I have a lot to read and learn. That’s my responsibility, not yours. I will continue to pursue the information I seek, including the sources, books and links provided by folks in this thread. However, this thread is obviously not the place.

Finally, if identifying oneself as Jewish is a cultural, and not a religious identity, then I agree that it’s not in conflict with Church and State. But being Jewish seems to not fall into any one category. To me, it clearly falls within the “Church” part of Church and State. It also falls into others, like “culture” or “heritage”. But it still has a religious component that, in my opinion, precludes this government from giving it an official hyphen, no matter how insignificant it may be to my daily life.

tomndebb, I’m out of this thread. I’ve asked my question and received my answer. I’ve also stated my view on the hyphens. Any other verbage is inappropriate in this thread. I stand as guilty as anyone else here. For that, I apologize.

To the rest, I am not going to respond to anything else. I will start another great debate, or go back to lurking, but I will not stop trying to educate myself. But as someone who doesn’t have a religious or cultural axe to grind… as someone who isn’t as sensitive as you all clearly are to this subject, I have the ability to read ALL sources, not just the ones **you ** agree with, to help me formulate some answer. If you must thrash about to make yourselves feel better, by all means have at it; you will do it without me. I will neither read or respond to any other postings. Your minds are as closed as anyone else’s. Your anger precludes you from helping others, like me, see the whole picture. Your anger is understandable. But I didn’t/haven’t/won’t put you (or anyone else for that matter) on a train to an incinerator. Your venom is misplaced. And your ignorance (like mine to you) is as visible to me as this computer screen. Surely you concede that those that don’t understand history are (potentially) doomed to repeat it? I’m just trying to understand. I am not alone in this pursuit.

68

Apology accepted.

No, seeking an answer makes you a person who wants to learn. That is a good thing. I and others contintue to recommend books that might be helpful. I repeat what I consider the best of MANY choices:

THE WAR AGAINST THE JEWS

Absolutely correct. It is religious, cultural, ethnic and a few other things. I agree 100% that government should not endorse Judaism, or Christianity, or Islam or any other religion in any way. Glad you to hear you say that.

[

Continuing education is a very commendable goal. Stopping the discourse is not. But the choice is yours.

69

No, but context means a lot.

Consider the two following questions:

“If anti-Semitism is on the rise, perhaps the Jewish community needs to ask itself why. I honestly don’t believe that Jews have been persecuted through the ages just because they reject Christ. There must be other, base characteristics and behaviors that upset and irritate the population at large.”

vs

“Has anti-semitism always been based on religious issues? What are the historical roots of anti-semitism?”

The second query seeks information.
The first query presumes an unspoken motive and more than implies that Jews have a need to examine their own culture and see what (not if) they are doing (anything) wrong.

We have had numerous threads on the topic of anti-semitism and a simple request for links to those threads would show how the topic has been discussed. Without actual knowledge that the Jews are somehow responsible for their own persecution, you might see how the implication that it is their fault would be considered insulting.

In fact, it probably can be said that there are practices in the Jewish community that have played a part in various persecutions, but those practices have been nothing more than choosing to follow their religious beliefs. Since some practices (abstaining from labor and travel on the Sabbath, special dietary laws, the choice to not observe the religious celebrations of their neighbors) set them apart from their neighbors, it is easy to whip up xenophobic feelings against them. However, there are no practices in which they engage that are hostile to the surrounding community, so it is silly to try to find out what they are doing “wrong.” (Some aspects of Jewish separation from the European community–separate housing, separate styles of clothing, moneylending, were imposed on them by their Christian neighbors, so pointing to their “differences” based on that was pretty vile.)

70

Imho, this has more to do with the individual than anything else. My husband got considerable pressure from his family for marrying a non-Catholic and even more for marrying someone 6 years his junior (we met when I was 19). His mother screamed, cried and wrote us really long letters telling us why our union was “wrong.” He eventually told her to get over it and started allowing me to respond to her letters and she stopped; I was surprised when she didn’t cause a scene during our wedding. She still periodically recommends that he met up with this really nice Catholic woman (we don’t have children and since we weren’t married Catholic we’re not really married), which is why we don’t spend much time with his family.

The problem is, is when you associate this type of behaviour with everyone in the group. I have a lot of really close Catholic friends and if I’d made the mistake of judging the culture based on his family I would truly be missing out.

If you’re defining Jews as a religious culture, you can join " the fraternity" through conversion. It’s not as simple as joining Christianity (it typically takes at least a year before you can fully convert) but most of the Jews I know will fully accept you as part of the Jewish culture by converting religiously.

71

All the non-Orthodox Jews I know would accept you as part of the Jewish culture as long as you chose to participate. Conversion is an individual option. Judaism discourages conversion for safety reasons; in a Christian world, to do otherwise would be collective suicide.

I have had a few friends convert to Judaism. The response of the Jewish community was always “are you nuts?” Sigh. As a community we are stuck with 2000 years of fear, blame, persecution, and screwed-up self-image.

Jews do isolate themselves in their own community. We do tend to exclude others. We grow up with that attitude; or, at least I did. We spend a lot of time in services, school, and so forth. We spend holidays together. We face suspicion and even outright anti-Semitism. That makes us uncomfortable with the world at large.

In times of fear, anxiety, doubt, and need, we naturally turn to our fond remembrances of our childhoods. Most of my Jewish friends and acquaintances grew up with a benevolent, nurturing religious/cultural experience. We turn to it; we don’t find much to rebel against. Of course I’m not saying that all Jews are that way, but on the other hand I don’t find the same anti-religious streak that I see in so-called “recovering Catholics.”

For that reason, we turn in rather than out. I don’t like the idea, but for the moment we’re stuck with it. My favorite example is charity and public service. Most Jewish organizations are set up to help other Jews, either here or in Israel or in Russia. There seems to be a fear of helping the world at large, as if it’s something too dangerous for us to approach.

So I have to ask again: are you nuts? Do you really want to belong to a group of people who always seem to be on the outside of mainstream culture? We’ve been blamed for just about everything bad in the world, even to the modern day. Today, certainly, we’re indistinguishable from every other “white man” on the street, and yet we’re not you, the Christian-heritage world.

It’s easy enough to say that the Muslims are “them”, the other, the enemy of “modern” civilization. We feel justified, somehow. In reality, though, we’re far more frightened of the invisible enemy. Jews are always the invisible enemy.

72

And of course we’re not at all, and neither are anti-war groups or Muslims or Palestinians. No people as a whole is an enemy. That’s the subtext of the American ideal: all humans are created equal, it’s a government of, by, and for the people. But it’s only an ideal, it’s something we have to strive for.