Jewish history month.

Great Debates
41

Actually, the problem is I did read your post. When you say “You are comparing the Spanish Inquisition to Jewish Heritage month?” and next jump into Normandy and events that occured in WWII, you’re not going to give the impression that you know what you’re talking about. Sorry, but I don’t think I’m the only one that was under the impression you thought Normandy had something to do with the Spanish Inquistion.

As Scott Plaid pointed out, he was not comparing “the Spanish Inquisition to Jewish Heritage month” but pointing out that your language is very anti-Semitic in nature. A percentage of your argument has been used before to justify atrocities against Jews and it’s important that you realize that; particularly when you’re talking about Americans being Americans, not Jewish-Americans or any variation of that (The Jewish Problem).

In the past 11 years, the number of Christians in America has declined by 9.7% (from 86.2% to 76.5%). I wouldn’t expect the U.S. to be the same when we’re getting close to more than a quarter of the population being non-Christian.

Not true (source).
Imho, your entire argument has done little to help your cause and done more to prove why it is important that the U.S. have an American Jewish History month. If nothing more than to minimize rhetoric such as you displayed here.

42

I just wanted to point out that, for most of European history, Jews were forced to remain seperate from the primary cultures of the countries they lived in, and in a lot of cases, this happened until the 19th, or even 20th century. There were a lot of jobs that Jews weren’t allowed to take, Jews had to live in specific areas, Jews had to wear distinctive clothing, Jews weren’t allowed to marry non-Jews, and so on. What all this led to was a distinct Jewish culture in those countries, with its own language, its own customs, it’s own food, its own rituals, and its own sense of identity.

So when somebody like Mike Wallice says “I’m Jewish”, it’s not just like your guy saying “I’m Catholic”, it’s like him saying “I’m Italian-American”. They’re both cultural identities.

43

Oh, and I missed this, earlier:

Christmas is not a bad word, now. Rather, lacking any serious issues on which to rant, Jerry Falwell and Bill O’Reilly have attempted to stir up controversies to call attention to themselves for the purposes of fundraising and ratings.

TV stations have been broadcasting “Season’s Greetings” and “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” and retailers have been telling their employees to close sales with the same phrases at this time of year since before Falwell founded his “Moral Majority” in the 70s, yet he only noticed the “attack” last year? (And, one of the rabid idiots invented the lie that the “secular Jew” (can you smell the stench of anti-semitism?) George Soros is actually funding a campaign to kill Christmas, even though no one has provided the least shred of evidence that Mr. Soros has even changed his own holiday cards, much less financed a non-existent campaign to change American culture.)

Look at the actual American culture: what are the big “Christmas” movies and TV shows that are repeated each year? Miracle on 34th Street, A Wonderful Life, 14,000 cartoons of Santa, Rudolf, Frosty the Snowman, *The Santa Clause * (I & II), various Grinch tales, Benji does Santa, 7,000 remakes of A Christmas Carol, and the Peanuts special.
Do you recognize what they all have in common? None of them (with the exception of Peanuts) even mentions the Nativity. Do you recognize the other thing they have in common? They are all traditional events for the Christmas season, most produced forty or more years ago (with Dickens somewhat older than that) not new shows foisted off in the last two (or even 20) years to kill Christmas. The last really good “Christmas” story goes back to 1951 and Amahl and the Night Visitors. If there is really a “war” on Christmas, why was it so successful all through the last 50 years and Jerry and Bill only noticed it last year?

44

Well, since BB has toned down the rhetoric a little, I will actually attempt to engage a little. The issue of source bias has been raised. So let’s try the Wikipedia entry:

Not too shabby.

That said, most of them went as Americans fighting for America’s interest, not to stop the genocide. The American Jewish response to the ongoing horrors has been an issue of some criticism. Some believe that it was quite tepid, that Jews were afraid of standing out too much or too inseceure of their own status to lobby hard enough for action. Some believe that they just failed to appreciate what was really going on.

Oh without doubt, and the same base characteristic that drove the extermination of the Romani and others in many lands throughout history, but only more persistently with the Jews. Jews have been the identifiable “other”. And it is always convienent to blame “the other” when problems occur. We have always been accepted on a provisional basis but rarely as full members of the societies in which we live. Even in America, the land of the hyphenated, you have the O’Reillys who believe that this is a Christian country and others are just here on Christians" good will and tolerance. And we have been stiff-necked about that. We have refused to convert even under threats of death and expulsion. We were offered a new Christianity by Martin Luther in good faith (so to speak) and turned him down. That tends to offend people. Luther responded by becoming a vicious antisemite who wrote some quite vile tracts. Mohammed also offered a new faith in freindship and expected us to embrace it and reacted the same way when we so rudely said no thanks.

You of course illustrate another part of the dynamic. You have contact with a handful of Jews and not only interpret their answer to you in a particular way, but generalize it to a whole group. In any case in which the majority has litttle real life contact with a diverse representation of a minority this stereotyping based a limited sample will occur. Suffice it to say that my experience with Jews is larger than yours and I know only a few who who place their Jewish identity above their American identity. There certainly are some. But then I suspect that there are many Catholics who, if asked, would place their identity as a Catholic above their identity as an American, and certainly many born-agains (those who do not believe that they are the same that is). Oh and many Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans, and so for many hyphens. Fortunately we can actually be both here. America is a country full of Christians but it is not a Christian country. It owes a lot to various Christian heritages, as does the world, but it owes a lot to others as well. It oews most to having them all here together. And no, I do not identify with Polish or German or Russian as my heritage, even though my grandparents came from those lands. They were never accepted as part of the cultures there.

You misunderstand the context of the Wallace context. They were talking about “White” in America as a dominant majority cultural identification. Unsaid but understood by Wallace and by me if I was asked is “White” in the way O’Reilly would mean it, White-Christian and probably Catholics need not apply either. I do not identify myself as part of that dominant group even though I am of pale complexion.

American I am.

45

Fascinating. Rhetoric? No. Opinion? Yes. I have no cause, other than to state that, IMO the Native Americans are the only group that has a legitimate gripe because they were here first, and we took the land from them. African Americans were slaves, for crying out loud, so I could be convinced that they should also be singled out as a group. But that’s it.

I am amazed (as I am a lurker who recently decided to be a guest), I’ve always noticed that threads about Jews invariably degenerate into “if you don’t agree with me, you must be anti-semitic”. And it would seem that most of the posters who do that either have identified themselves as Jewish or in someway connected to Jews (marriage, etc.). As a Jew, you are not an unbiased source of opinion and information. I would not expect you to be. But the piling-on mentality is embarrassing. Making yourself feel better by trying to pound others into submission, or rally around each other by agreeing that “oh, he’s just an anti-semitic ranter” are missing a lot. I read your posts, go to your links, and try to learn more. I have sympathy for the history of your people. I don’t, however, feel the US needs to, as a matter of public policy, give you, Italians, Poles, or any other group a heritage month. If you as a culture need one, by all means have one. Just don’t ask the government to sponsor it.

No where in my posts do I deny the holocaust, denouce Jews as “sub-human” or give the impression that Jews “got what they deserved.” This thread was supposed to be about Jewish History month. As I stated, I’m against ALL of these types of things. And I am as responsible as anyone for pushing this off topic.

**tomndebb ** admonished me, and rightly so, by stating:

and then gives two of his own “personal observations”.

and

Those sound like personal observations to me.

Anyway. The circle-the-wagons pack mentality on this particular subject is troubling. I did not grow up during WWII, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to understand the atrocities that occurred and how/why they happened. I am also troubled by US history as it pertains to the fine folks that were here in the first place. Treating humans as disposable, no matter what the “justification”, is not my cup of tea. I am fascinated and interested to learn how one population can do this to another.

When one enters this or other threads, that ask questions about Judaism, Jewish history, or religious history, it doesn’t take long to see who are people who are truly interested in answering questions, like Anne Neville, and those that want to keep up their own "rhetoric " by stating that people that don’t march to their personal drum are somehow trying to revisit the Final Solution.

There are a number of threads in GD that cover a number of topics about Jewish history, the Holocaust, etc. right now. And invariably, if someone strays from the acceptable P.C. stance, and asks a legitimate question (to the inquirer, at least), 20 posts appear out of everywhere denouncing the question as “ignroant”, “dangerous”, or some other nonsense. Can you not take your Jewish hat ;j (no pun intended) off for one moment and parse the words without bias? There are very few Anne Neville’s out here. She’s jewish, and she’s able to engage and debate in an intelligent manner. I’ve learned from her posts. I see her trying to “fight ignorance”. Others just want to tell me (and others) that since we don’t see the world as they see it, we *must * be anti-semitic, have an agenda, etc. Nonsense! But, you’ll never be convinced. You will post and post until the dissenting party goes away, tired of explaining him/herself instead of focusing on the question at hand. Not all people that post “offensive” material are trolls. Some are trying to learn. If my personal Jewish friends were as narrow-minded as the contingent out here, it would be a sad day indeed for me.

No. I’m trying to learn. I realize that Jewish people are extremely sensitive. That doesn’t mean that you are immune to criticism or your borish behavior is acceptable.

I consider myself an American. I find that to be a laughable stance in this thread. Everyone wants a hyphen. Fine. Take your hyphen. I disagree.

I’m going to go now and decorate my Christmas tree. You can tell me all you want that Christ is not the reason for the season, (and yes, I do realize there are a number of reasons/theories of why the birth of Jesus is celebrated in late December), but it’s called Christmas, not Saturnmas. That’s enough for my purposes. If you want to drag it back through the Romans, etc. that’s fine for you.

46

DSeid

Thank you for your reply. I posted before reading yours, and again… I believe I have learned something from someone with a much different, but valuable, perspective as my own. I appreciate your time and thoughfulness.

I appreciated this more than you can imagine!

47

[hijack]
Couldn’t agree with you more. Of course, I think it goes a little deeper than that. With the information age it became a lot easier for fundamentalists to be heard, tack that with a decrease in the Christian majority and you get a group of people who are so afraid that they’re being oppressed that everything they see is a form of oppression and an example of it. Rather than point out the flaw in this line of thought (Christians are the majority, not the minority) the media plays right into it, because fear sells.

“Holiday” = “Holy Day.” I don’t see where the problem is.

[/hijack]

48

Rhetoric definition from Merriam Webster Dictionary Online

The Blond Bomber, I’m not trying to say you are anti-Semitic for disagreeing with me, but that some of the points you are making are.

Now, if I were to ignore the language you’re using in this discussion, I understand the point you’re trying to make; that such observances divide us rather than bring us together. If you interested in debating this argument alone, I’d recommend you chose your language better and refrain from arguments that are historically anti-Semitic in nature, because people will focus on that.

People only have a “legitimate gripe” if we took land from them? Does it not make sense that we should educate our society about our minorities and show them where we have done them wrong and why they are such an asset to our country?

To me it does, and even more important that we learn the mistakes our country has made so that we improve as a nation and not make the same mistakes. Slavery is a blimish on American (and world) history, but overcoming it a triumph (and on-going struggle) that we should celebrate. We should celebrate how far we’ve come as a country and how important it was for us to come this far. America isn’t innocent with Jews, either. Its important to understand where we made mistakes, how we corrected them and celebrate that change and what has resulted from it.

49

Actually, they do not. It is one of the most persistent myths on this board.

Check out the thread asking why denying the “Jewish Holocause” was such a bad thing. I did not see anyone attacking the OP for being an anti-Semite.

Bringing up any offensive stereotype about an ethnic group is bound to raise hackles. They can be minimized if one carefully researches the propositions (and outright myths) that lead to these generalizations and makes conclusions only on the basis of verifiable evidence.

It’s not a matter of oversensitivity. It’s one of treating people with the same respect with which you would want to be treated.

I don’t much care for/about specialized government-sponsored recognitions of various groups and causes. But nothing is being “jammed down my throat”. At most, a PSA or two pops up on the TV screen, or somebody writes a newspaper article that adds to my store of knowlede, if I care to read it.

:dubious:

We’ve done the “they must have done something” thread before. It did not go well.

Hardly anyone disagrees with your form of identification, regardless of what you describe in your “circle of acquaintances”. I’m an American. And an agnostic. And someone whose largely dormant Jewish heritage is awakened by threads such as this one.

You probably would have been unhappy in my office today when I announced a spread (baked goods, cheese and other goodies) had been laid out in the break room in honor of the Solstice. :smiley:

50

Those were direct responses to your anecdotal observations.

As to the rest of your posts: I would agree that there is a tendency among a small but vocal number of Jews to cry “anti-semitism” at any hint of questions or criticism. However, that has not been the case in this thread. What has happened, here, has been a direct response to a number of rather odd statements by you that directly echo actual antisemitic statements that people have expressed over the years.

Your odd claim that a merchant should refrain from making money simply because he has a different faith is silly, at best. (Separate anecdote: I worked in retail for a company, founded by a couple of Jewish guys, that sold yard and garden supplies. When it came around to November, they faced a choice: shut down their operations (at least to a skeleton crew) selling only houseplant supplies and laying off their overwhelmingly Christian work force, or get into the Christmas tree and trimmings business to keep the operation running at a profit for an additional couple of months. Based on your reasoning, they should have simply shut down. Being merchants in capitalist America, they built up the Christmas business to the point where they were able to keep most of the staff employed on the extended profits right through April when the growing season restarted. People who sell things make money by selling, regardless of the vendor’s religion and regardless of the customer’s religion. That is how things work in a secular society.)

In fact, your argument appears to run directly counter to your purported claim to want to do away with “hyphens.” If followed closely, a Baptist could never carry a Catholic translation of the bible and Catholic could never sell the KJV, since, in each case, they are selling products indicative of things that they do not believe.

So far, you have claimed that you “don’t understand” why merchants sell certain things if they happen to be Jewish, have claimed that you are surprised at how few Jews fought in WWII (despite their numbers being higher than the numbers of the general populace and based on the claim that they should have been fighting “extermination” even though few people among the general population of the allies knew that “extermination” was the action being carried out by the Nazis until after the camps were discovered in the Spring of 1945), have claimed that “If I ask a catholic how he identifies himself, unless he says Italian-American, he’s going to say American. A Jewish person invariably says I’m Jewish” which completely ignores the fact that the overwhelming number of Jews identify Jewish as their ethnic background because they were generally not permitted to be citizens in Russia and Poland from which most of them came, and have made the rather hostile claim that if Jews have been hated for so long, they must be doing something to incur that hostility (even though you apparently have no idea what that might be).

Now, if you fail to see how so many antagonistic expressions are going to evoke a negative reaction, you are probably going to misinterpret most of the responses as needlessly hostile. I would say that any hostility, here, has been a direct response to your expressions.

51

Tom – VERY well said.

Blonde Bomber - A few points to consider:

  1. My late father, a highly decorated WWII vet would have been very offended by your implication about Jewish combat soldiers in that conflict. He, and many of his colleagues in the US Army Air Corp, were jews, and were born in THIS country, and fought and sacrificed for this country.
  2. As for exhibiting behaviors which “aggravate” non-jews - this is exactly the language that excuses rapists because the victim was wearing sexy clothes - total BS.

Most importantly - I am an American and a Jew. There is NO HYPHEN, no first, no second. I am a citizen of the United States of America, and damn proud of it. Specifically I am very proud of being part of a nation founded in large part by people who were being persecuted for their religious beliefs, and therefore took special care to NOT create a Christian nation (or any other religion) - as you would prefer to believe.

I am also a Jew. By religious practice and ethnicity. I am proud of my heritage, and the contributions Jews have made to this country and to other countries/cultures/sciences etc over the centruries.

Please note that not too long ago, many Europeans of Jewish faith thought they would NEVER be persecuted, because they were “good {Germans, Poles, Romanians, French} etc. etc. etc.” and therefore would not be rounded up. When the knock at the door came at 4 am - they were told they were Jews, and nothing else mattered.
BB - study history a bit before shooting your mouth off with statements that are at best naive, and at worst hateful. I strongly recommend The War Against the Jews It is a serious scholarly work… a bit heavy reading, but extremely educational.

Finally - you have castigated others for not having “skin in the game” etc. because they were not Jewish. Absurd. I come to the defense of blacks when the Klan and other racists spew nonsense. I am not black. I come to the defense of gays when homophobes advocate violence - both verbal and physical. Etc and etc… in fact… all decent Americans will stand their ground against bigotry and hatred against any group. It is patently unamerican to stand by and say/do nothing. You clearly don’t understand what it means to be a true American.

Look in a mirror and work on this a bit. That type of self introspection is in the holiday spirit isn’t it?

Merry Christmas.

52

BB, not to “pile on” but if you are interested in answers to questions and intelligent debate, then allow me to point out the hot button elements of your posts (those which kept me from even responding in anything but the most cursory way at first).

This statement has already been pointed out to you as one very similar to that used by many with antisemitic agendas. Jews, they accuse, are not loyal Americans. It often is followed up with statements of how “clannish” we are.

As has been pointed out to you, this is the same line used by antisemites … they must have done something to deserve it, hatred against them is proof that hatred against them is justified.

You quickly followed up with

Yes, that does sound like the typical too powerful Jews controlling the banks and media for their own conspiratorial agendas canard. One really soon expects to hear talk of The Elders of Zion or The Trilateral Commision when one hears statements like these.

And ended with the pre-emptive strike daring someone to call these statements antisemitic …another ploy often used.

And that was all in your first post! Soon you added in implications that Jews don’t go to war for this country, and the O’Reilly falsehood that Jews are out to forbid others from wishing each other a Merry Christmas or are offended by store Christmas trees and greetings. You just kept digging yourself in, man.

Sure, with our history we Jews can be a little sensitive. I am unfortunately fairly confident (and have said this in another thread) that overt antisemitism will become fashionable once again as HaShoah becomes more of a distant memory. We have a long history of periods of opportunity and assimilation followed by pograms or worse as economies went sour and those seeking power needed someone to blame. I look around historical corners cautiously because that “base characteristic”, our “otherness” has not changed, nor is it likely to. As I’ve said before, I may be paranoid but that does not mean that the world is not out to get me.

In short, BB, if you want serious answers to questions and respectable debate about opinions, then be aware of how you phrase your comments. It is not “pc” to realize that if you use the same phrasology as that used by hate groups people will jump to some conclusions about you. In this case no one ever called you an antisemite, despite your sensitity to criticism about your tone and your expectation that such would occur. They merely pointed out that what you were saying sounded a lot like it. They tried, to little avail, to get you to see that you were being quite offensive and to give you the chance to rephrase.

Your point may be that you think that American should be an exclusive identity and that having other identiies at the same time somehow disrespects America. You find hyphens horrific; I find hyphens huggable. Hokay-dokey. Your point gets lost when you used the same words that the haters do.

53

It is probably a “base characteristic” for me to be amused by this, but I got a chuckle out of some of the Google ads listed for this thread (“Diversity Training” and “Online Psychotherapists”).

54

Yes, let’s all pat **Tomndebb ** on the back for taking off his moderator hat and identifying things in my post that he doesn’t (and many of you don’t) agree with. I have in two previous posts stated that I should not have taken this thread in the direction it went. But it’s not enough. The piling on continues. I love the *I need to read more history books" before shooting from the hip * comments, as if my questions/observations are irrelevant or “dangerous”. If you knew me personally, I think your opinion of me would change; however it may not. In any event, I’ll address a couple of items for clarification and then bow out. You can all thrash about, safe in the knowledge that you have “proved your point” or “shut up another dangerous thinker”.

With the exception of a few, I think you are as biased (and racist, culturist, or whatever other -ist you use) as anyone. The difference is, you think holding the moral high ground gives you the right to slap down an honest question or inquiry, or an idea or “thought” that smacks of anti-Semitism. Perhaps if I were Jewish, I’d feel the same way. I would like to think, however, that I could be above generalizations and try to educate someone the best I could.

For example. **Tomndebb ** points out another thread in GD that he claims the OP was not attacked. If I read your posts all correctly, none of you came out and called me an anti-Semite. But you *imply * it. The thread in question asks about the Holocaust and its importance to other holocausts. The first page is a continual piling on of the OP because of his choice of words, how he worded the question. OK… WE ALL GET IT. NO NEED FOR THE 20 (give or take) posters to rehash and rehash it, questioning the OP’s motives, instead of just answering his question. In this thread, people actually state that even if they have to concede that the number of killed by Nazis in the death camps was 11 million, the 6 million Jews were different because they were targeted for extermination. I’d say many a gypsy was targeted too, but there’s not enough of them left to make much noise. Poles, Russians, Slavs, etc were ALL looked at as subhuman. My guess is that ALL people that the Nazis didn’t want around would have taken their turns at the gas chambers if Hilter’s regime continued. How dare any of you question my motives when you don’t know my personal history? Would it make you feel better to know that I lost family in Poland during WWII? Does that give me a seat at the table? Or, is it required that you must be a Jewish person to understand the horrors of hate, anti-Semitism, or any other systematic dismantling of your “people”. Please. Jews were targeted in Nazi Germany, no question about it. Many other groups were too. And their families and descendants feel the a pain as real as yours.

As for my comment that there might be other reasons that people may have disliked the Jews **other ** than their rejection of Christ, well… you are Jewish and I am not. I’m also not a Nazi. So I don’t know the answer. But the question still stands. If your contention is that a bunch of ignorant Nazis decided that since you reject Christ, you must be exterminated, I’d say that my gut tells me I am not seeing the whole picture. Are you all telling me that there were not socio-economic factors that helped people justify their behavior? No underlying jealousies of some kind? OK. You are Jewish, so you must know. So please enlighten me. How does a large population of people who lived, married, and worked with and amongst Jews suddenly become rabid anti-Semites and have no problem seeing friends and neighbors shoved onto trains? I simply don’t understand. I can’t get my head around it.

For those of you with an agenda, you read my words as if I blame you. Of course I don’t blame you. Because your culture, beliefs, etc. might be different doesn’t mean I want to pack you up and never see you again. I don’t blame every Arab I see because they look like the guys who hijacked the planes on 9/11. I also believe that the US Government has a lot more to answer to for their treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII than they have to answer to their treatment of Jewish Americans. This government and country is not perfect, but I’m not convinced that, as I believe **Tomndebb ** stated, that the US Govt. needs to address your concerns before it answers to the Japanese for throwing their families into interment camps.

I said Jews might ask themselves what other reasons their might have been because as a non-Jew, and as a person who can’t imagine killing your entire culture just because you don’t accept Christ as the Messiah, I wonder what else was going on? I can’t ask myself or other non-jews, because we aren’t Jewish and probably can’t speak to this issue as well as you can. What drives this seemingly endless persecution? Mine is a question of curiosity, not of indictment of behavior. Your interpretation seems to always fall to the side of indictment.

It is true that I have personal, moral reservations of certain behaviors. That doesn’t make me right, superior, or anything else. It makes me a human, with a capacity to ask questions, make my own decisions, and live my life accordingly. As a practicing Jew, I can’t imagine profiting from selling the New Testament, Christmas decorations, or any such religious inconsistencies. But that’s just me. That doesn’t mean you can’t, and be just as comfortable in your skin. This also dovetails (in my mind, anyway) to the question I have as to the Jewish slave laborers in WWII. Speaking only for myself, I’d rather have taken a bullet in my head than go to work in an arms plant (as in say… Schindler’s List), build a road or bridge, or do anything else. As a Jew, I assume I know what these bombs are being made for and what the ultimate goal is of the people forcing me to make them. I would fight to the death before making a Nazi war machine hum. Again, your opinions may differ. But don’t tell me you don’t have a choice. Granted, one choice takes you off the planet, but it’s still a choice.

If my questions and statements, as some of you have pointed out (over and over), “fit” anti-Semitic agendas, well… all I can say is that’s not *my * agenda. So piling on may make you feel better, but it really isn’t hitting me where it should. I am not an anti-Semite (or an anti-dentite for that matter :wink: ), so scream all you want. But trying to shout down someone who is simply asking questions, posing thoughts, etc. that you interpret as anti-Semitic is not exactly open-minded, is it? You’ve made some assumptions about me that are wrong. I’ve never watched Bill O’Reilly, for example… so I don’t relate to the comparison. You may find my phrasing abrasive, but if you can get beyond your own personal biases, perhaps you could actually provide me with some useful information. I’m too busy to parse every sentence to test for its PC-ness.

I have thanked those of you who have addressed some of my questions, pointed me in the direction of reference material, etc. That’s how one learns. To that, I have an honest question. Google provides no clue, other than I’ve spelled “program” wrong. So, what’s a “pogram”?

Finally, to Gringo_Miami, I did not mean to tarnish your father, his memory or his service to his country. That wasn’t what I meant. As I re-read that particular part of my posting, I can see how the negative interpretation could occur. I should have done some research before asking the question. However, I used my personal observation of the graveyards of Normandy to draw from. MANY more crosses than Stars of David. This isn’t a contest. I understand Jews weren’t/aren’t as numerous as Christians in this country. I was just curious as to the numbers, and quickly asked. That is one question I wish I had re-worded.

As far as this message board is concerned, it is my responsibility to ask questions in the proper forum, and also to keep other’s OP’s on track. I did a disservice to this one. I guess my personal bias against hyphenated Americans led me to ask questions that would have been best asked in another place/time. I would have done the same thing if this thread was asking about Muslim American Heritage Month.

I’ve asked one basic question in this thread, consistent with the OP, that has never been answered. That is, Doesn’t Jewish Heritage Month fly in the face of separation of church and state?

55

The issue was not one of whether anyone agrees with you. The issue has been that you came into the thread expressing opinions in exactly the same manner as people who have preceded you who were clearly anti-semitic. Then, when the issue has been explained to you, you don’t seem to grasp what has actually been said. You are still going on about selling merchandise as if Christians and Jews must be enemies at the same time that you insist that anyone who identifies themself with a culture other than “American” has some sort of problem. So which is it? Why do you get to “question” the loyalty of Jews to America, then turn around and “question” their loyalty to their own group in the matter of selling merchandise or joining the military? You seem to be the one who has claimed that Christians and Jews must be enemies, (or, at least, must take actions to identify each other by separated beliefs when stocking shelves in a store), yet you express the idea that any person who chooses to identify themself in more than one way has a problem.

So which is it? When you post contradictory positions, (and each interpretation can be used to paint the Jews as “other”–with concurrent assertions that such people should go back to Israel), it is hardly strange that people will “question” your motives.

I have not linked to any other thread from this one, so I am not sure where you were going with this thought.

I don’t really support [Your Identity Here] Months (although I have defended them against oddly prejudiced attacks, here, in the past), but I do not see how a month that is simply put on the calendar with dozens of other [Identity] months in which the government does nothing more than issue a proclamation recognizing the contributions of the group actually breaks any separation of church and state. If no laws are passed to elevate or denigrate the group or taxes imposed on or abated from the group and the group is not given special rights or funding, I have no idea how such a declaration violates the principle of Separation of Church and State.

56

So, you lump me in with everyone else that has rubbed you the wrong way. Perfect. I can see how you can read this with an unbiased, open mind.

I grasp it. I just don’t happen to agree with you. You don’t know me. I’m electrons on a message board. But you lump me in with that “ilk” that you deem anti-semitic. You are quite a guy.

You are becoming embarrassing. I’ve never said that Christians and Jews “must be enemies”. I also never said that anyone “who identifies themself with a culture other than “American” has some sort of problem.” You read those words into my posts because of your bias and anger. I said many times that if you identify yourself as Jewish, then by all means be Jewish. Is it wrong to identify yourself as Jewish-American? No… Is it a good idea? well, there’s *a * debate. Should my tax dollars pay for a PSA? Not in my opinion. Opinion does not equal *fact * or anti-semitic to me. It seems to mean that to you. Good for you. Be angry.

I don’t question Jewish loyalty. I do think it is a legitimate question, however, to ask if you had to choose ONE group to identify with, which would it be? And if that’s not a legitimate question to you, it must not be. :dubious: Where did I say Christians and Jews must be enemies? I didn’t even imply it. I’ve said that for me, I find it to be a contradiction to be a devout believer in one thing, and sell things that contradict that belief. If I walk into a Christian Book Store (I never have, so hold your stones) and saw “Why Jesus wasn’t the Son of God”, I’d question the motives of the store owner. Again, my opinion. I don’t think this applies to lawn mowers.

I also don’t think a person has a “problem” if they choose to identify themselves in more than one way. I don’t care what you do. Wear a big ol’ Star o’ David on your forehead if you want. I just look at us all as Americans, and I’ve stated that before. Dr. Martin Luther King asked not to be judged by the color of his skin but by the content of his character… but when one identifies oneself as an African-American, what is this person asking to be judged by first?

[johnny cochoran]When you hyphenate, you separate.[/johnny cochoran]

And by your continuing to attack and deride, it’s hardly strange that people will “question” your motives, either.

In my opinion, the positions I hold are not contradictory. But of course, you are right. To suggest otherwise would make one what… an anti-semite?

tomndebb, the thread in question is entitled “Why is denying the Jewish Holocaust such a bad thing” I didn’t remember it as I wrote my response, but I thought this was the one you were referring to.

Well, if tax dollars are spent to pay for PSA’s for example, I’d have to say that the principle of “Church and State” is violated.

For what it’s worth, Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah (your spelling may vary), Happy Kwaanza, or whatever makes you tick.

… and to all a goodnight.

57

Everyone who has rubbed me the wrong way? Heck, you haven’t rubbed me the wrong way; you just seem to have some odd views of the world and you appear to have a desire to be indignant that anyone would respond to your hostility with hostility. It is not a matter of “rubbing the wrong way,” it is a matter of seeing arguments presented in very much trhe same way as a whole collection of people who have demonstrated anti-semitism and wondering at the source of those comments.

A poster who enters a discussion on economics or government who asks whether a person should not have the ability to keep the fruits of his own labors or how taxation differs from theft will be perceived to have libertarian leanings.
A poster who enters a discussion on Evolutionary Theory and asks how evolution could have occurred in the 6,000 years since the Creation will be perceived as a Biblical literalist.
A poster who enters a discussion on the U.S. response to the WTC/Pentagon attacks with a question about why the U.S. insists on being the world’s bully will be perceived to have bias against the U.S.

There may be other reasons that prompted those questions, but those will be the perceptions that such questions evoke.

Similarly, a person who enters a discussion on whether a Jewish history month is appropriate who starts off with declarations that it appears that Jews do not want to be members of society, (a declaration identical to statements made by anti-semitic persons) and asks the question whether Jews should not ask themselves why anti-Jewish feelings are on the rise, (a question often asked by anti-semitic persons), accompanied by a claim that one does not believe religion is the sole reason they have been persecuted, (which is both identical to the remarks of anti-semitic people and is also odd in that no one had made the claim, here, that they are persecuted only for their beliefs), is going to evoke responses that indicate that the poster may be anti-semitic, NOT because the comments “rub the wrong way” but because they are identical to comments made by anti-semites.

I have not leapt to the conclusion that you are anti-semitic, but I have tried to point out why your comments appear that way to others. I have also tried to figure out where some of your comments originate, but that is a separate issue. For example:

I do not know any really good Catholic bookstores that carry no works critical of Catholicism and I can’t imagine such a store that carried no works on Judaism written by Jews. I find your apparent notion that one should tie one’s products to one’s beliefs in a restrictive way just odd, however, it was the claim that

that I note is another statement that is stereotypically made by anti-semites. If you use stereotypical languge, you are liable to be associated with those who fit the stereotypes.

Right. Comparing the sale of religious objects to the sale of arms to a foreign enemy does not imply anything like enmity between the religious groups.

Perhaps the problem is simply that you fail to grasp the meanings and nuances of the actual words and images that you employ.

58

While I can certainly understand that in a busy world its difficult to remain PC all the time, when you’re talking on the web (particularly a board) it’s important to take the time because we only have your words to judge you/what your saying by. Regardless whether you like it or not, its the simple truth. People here don’t know what your intentions are, and unless you want to be piled upon you should pick your questions/argument/whatever more carefully, because, as you said, we don’t know you.

It’s pogrom. Wikipedia defines it as:

This is a difficult question to answer. Here are a couple sites that have potential answers and discuss some of the more typical responses.

Link
Link

Of course, these are both Jewish sites, so I’ll offer a quote from Mychal Massie of WorldNetDaily.com

Captain Amazing answered this question:

Jewish identity can be described as either religious or national. As Wikipedia says:

The separation of Church and State is not violated if you’re using Jewish to define a national origin, rather than a religious identity.

59

You do need to read more history books. The question you asked can really only adequetely be answered by a book. The history of Jews being persecuted and discriminated against is long and goes way beyond just the Nazis.

You have come in here saying some very ignorant things and have been called on them by numerous posters. Frankly, from the things you have been saying I am shocked that my fellow Dopers haven’t ripped you to shreds. You have thus far have put forth arguments supporting the covetous Jew (in regards to selling Bibles), unloyal Jew (identifying as Jews instead of Americans) and have come to some baffling conclusions regarding the holocaust. Namely, they must have done something to deserve it and that they apparently didn’t do enough to fight it.

You also don’t get to hide behind “its just my opinion”. Thats quite simply bullshit.

What is your agenda? You have come in here and said things like:

What exactly are you trying to argue by these quotes? Becuase it sure as hell seems to me like you are trying to argue that Jews are deficient as a people. Honestly, you can’t see the inflammatory nature of these quotes?

Sum up in a couple sentances or a paragraph what exactly you are trying to prove in this thread.

60

Hey everyone, there are some people who feel that they should be able to go into the heart of Chicago’s South side and yell out “Ni***r!” and then be surprised that people are upset because they didn’t mean anything by it. Y’know going into a South side jazz club and talking how there must be a reason that Blacks were lynched is “just expressing an opinion.” If those people have no desire to learn why that may be offensive … well why waste anymore breath about it? Shame, because there were glimers of hope there. He showed some signs of being interested in some actual facts and of being able to modify his positions in the face of them. Oh well.

So, how about dem Bears, eh? :slight_smile:

Or maybe to continue the discussion in a more productive line, when dealing with someone like this, someone who insists on saying offensive things but gives some indication that they are not really as hateful as what they sound like, just expressing themselves with a poor word choice and out of a lack of knowledge (sort of like that sweet young thang some of you have heard me tell about, who innocently asked me where my horns were?), how much good faith effort is warranted and when does it become banging your head against a wall? And to circle back to the op, would something like a Jewish Heritage Month provide a vehicle for reducing this sort of ignorance, or merely get these people who think that one identity must be more important than another, these hyphen-hater-Americans, these “Are you American or are you Jewish? Choose one!” people, more of a reason to dig themselves into their holes?