I realize this post wasn’t directed at me, but I have to answer to it. I have talked to those from my congregation whose parents were sucked in,<alright, I am a bit biased here>, and at first they do treat it like a normal Jewish congreation. Slowly though they bring more of the Christian aspect in it, thereby converting them. If they put anything in their advertising about being a Christian group, they woudln’t suck as many people in as they already do.
I know I am just a kid, but these groups really piss me off. So sorry if I put my two cents in where it really isn’t necessary. :)Feel free to tell me to shut up.
No need to shut up, wackyninja. You hit the nail right on the head.
It’s as I said earlier; if you want to “sell” Christianity, then fine, do so on the merits of Christianity. At least be above-board and honest about it. Don’t however, be deceptive and call it Judaism.
This was not necessary. Your words and ideas will speak for you, for better or for worse, not your age. And this is a public message board. You’re entitled.
These groups really are out there and march around trying to push themselves on innocent people all the time–so I have a question.
Quite frequently, on my campus, those groups -it’s not just Jews for J–campaign how Jesus Is The Way! Or the Christian group on campus will have Passover the way Jesus celebrated it in the Pit <the meeting place of our student center>. Is this allowed? Isn’t a University considered public/state property? Does this cross the boundaries of sepration of Church and State? I can’t tell you how infuriated I get when people tell me from teh group, “It’s ok, Father soandso is Jewish, and he is leading us in this.”
Others may correct me on this but I believe a state institution may allow religious services on it’s grounds, as long as it is similarly allowed to all other comparable religious and non-religious groups.
Whether the group in question is misleading in it’s pitch has no bearing on church/state considerations.
Christianity is an enhanced version of Judaism. I don’t see where the hang up is there. Am I missing something? I don’t see how these people are being “not above board.”
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Christianity is an enhanced version of Judaism. I don’t see where the hang up is there. Am I missing something? I don’t see how these people are being “not above board.”
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These people are not saying “convert to Christianity - it’s an enhanced version of Judaism”. They are purporting to be offering something different than the standard version of Christianity. The issue is whether they genuinely believe in this version that they are selling.
Actually, I find this very interesting. I went to a born-again Christian high school, and in Bible class we studied “cults.” What you describe is, amusingly enough, one of the warning signs.
Some of the major beliefs of Judaism are that God does not become a man, that the messiah will be just a human and not God incarnate, and God is One, not Three. Christianity does not “enhance” these beliefs, it tosses them out altogether. If you wish to believe Christianity is superior, that is your right; but I would suggest you qualify it as your opinion, not a fact.
Judaism doesn’t believe it is possible for their to be a literalSon of God.
Judaism doesn’t believe in the doctrine of Original Sin.
Judaism doesn’t believe in the concept of a Trinity.
Judaism doesn’t recognize baptism as a means of getting into heaven.
Judaism stresses personal repentence of one’s own sins to God directly for forgivness, not vicarious atonement through someone’s death.
Judaism doesn’t recognize the authority of the Christian Bible.
Do Christians follow any Jewish rituals?
Circumcision?
Holidays? Passover? Chanukah?
Kashrus?
Shabbos?
I could go on and on (and on and on).
How, jmullaney can you consider Christianity an enhanced form of Judaism. Calling Christianity and enhanced form of Judaism is like calling a book an enhanced form of a tree. Yes, one came from the other, but it can no longer be called the former.
Zev: *It’s as I said earlier; if you want to “sell” Christianity, then fine, do so on the merits of Christianity. At least be above-board and honest about it. Don’t however, be deceptive and call it Judaism. *
True, sneakiness about religion is despicable…on the other hand, wtf?! Anybody in this society who isn’t aware that “a religion about Jesus”=“Christianity” has really not been paying attention. And I confess to a secret fondness for the whole “Messianic Jew” idea—in the abstract, that is, not for me personally—because I love watching religions hybridize. Must have been sort of the same thing a few centuries ago as Sikhism grew out of Islam and Hinduism. (“Wait a minute—you folks are strict monotheists and you accept the doctrine of karma? That’s just not possible!!”) The “JUBU” or Jewish Buddhist is an even cooler hybrid, IMHO.
Still, concealing your sponsor’s affiliations from your prospective proselytes is a no-no. Sigh…bad Jews for Jesus, bad Jews for Jesus.
It’s worse than despicable, it’s downright dishonest. Think about it… They want to convince you of what they believe is the truth. So how do they propose to do it? By lying to you…
Zev Steinhardt
And not all Christian Churches believe all of that. But I do beleive that there was (and maybe still is) a Jewish sect that does practice Baptism, as that is where John the Baptist came from. And is there not a group that believes that the Messiah will be a literal son? Finally, the KJV of the OT is very close to your Bible.
However, to my Church, the whole thing is a waste of time. After all the devout Jews are already following a perfectly acceptable “way”, so what is gained by converting them? On the other hand, some of the non-devout Jews are that way because their traditional religion does not fit THEIR need for faith*, so why not have them try out Christianity, with a few Jewish traditions thrown in? Is it not better (and I am asking the devout Jews here) for them to have a Faith they can beleive in, rather than halfhearted following a “way” that gives them no satisfaction?
and there are also many “halfhearted” Christians that might be better served, faithwise, by another religion. Just not one of those destructive cults.
Ok. Still doesn’t look like baptism was used as a way to get into heaven, which is perhaps why zev_steinhardt qualified his statement that way.
In any case, while I suppose it is perfectly reasonably for people to go to a faith that fits their needs better, it seems fairly clear that Jew for Jesus is attempting to lure Jews in by a surface appearance of Judaism before introducing the Christianity that lies beneath. If they are simply Christians with a few Jewish traditions thrown in, why not simply advertise as such? For that matter, from this thread it doesn’t seem like they have any Jewish beliefs (or do they? what makes them different from say Baptists anyway?) !
No, but most Christians (including Jews for Jesus) do believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God.
I’m not familiar with any Jewish sect that uses baptism.
No, there is no group that believes that God can have a literal son.
Lastly, when I use the term “Christian Bible” I mean the New Testament. I was just not clear.
You know, if it were introduced as “Hey, we’re a Christian group with Christian beliefs that happens to eat only kosher,” I probably wouldn’t be too upset about it. But they are calling themselves Jewish when none of their core beliefs are Jewish at all.
In any event, the answer to your question is no. Not when the two faiths are mutually exclusive. All you end up with then is a hopeless mish-mash of religions.
You can’t go to church on Easter to celebrate the resurection of the Messiah who died for your sins and then go to shul on Yom Kippur and fast and ask forgiveness for your sins. You can’t reconcile the two.
You can’t profess to belong to a religion that is still awaiting the messiah and also claim that the Messiah has already been here. You can’t reconcile the two.
It’s just the same as telling someone that a whale is a fish. True, a whale may, in some respects, look like a fish, but the two are mutually exclusive. If it’s a whale, it’s not a fish. If it’s a fish, it’s not a whale.
The mikveh was used in Temple times for ritual immersion. It is still used today (primarily by women). It had, however, nothing to do with getting into Heaven or as an affirmation of faith.
I don’t want to offend anyone here (especially my friend Danielinthewolvesden), but I’m going to be blunt.
After two millenia of trying to convert us by force, hook or crook, Jews have a resistence of conversion to Christianity ingrained in them. I think you’d have better luck converting a Jew to Bhuddism than to Christianity. Jews for Jesus knows this. If they advertised as outright Christians with some Jewish customs/practices, they might convert two people a year. It’s only by allowing people to think that they are still remaining Jewish and practicing Judaism that they can achieve any success. That’s why they don’t advertise themselves as they truly are.
In reality, none. They may call their centers of worship synagouges and they may light a menorah on Chanukah to go with their Christmas tree, but, in reality, there is no difference.
Zev, I certainly share your outrage at this group attempting to ‘convert’ DEVOUT Jews. That is just plain wrong*. But as far as the non-devout, do you not feel it is better for them to have a faith that fits, and satisfies their “inner need” for faith, rather than a religion they half-heartedly go thru a few motions because their parents did?
But the “Jews for Jesus” folks, if thats what they are doing (and I am not sure , at all@), then they should be more open about it. There is no reason why one could not keep some Jewish traditions, and still be a Christian. But they should SAY that.
(There are a few Jew/Christians who have accepted that JC is the OT Messiah, but still keep all the Law. etc. They are very rare, and I don’t know whether to call them a Jewish or Christian Sect. They clearly do not accept Paul, or the Acts, nor the interpretations of JC words by James & Peter.
That is not what these J4J folks are about, in any case.)
No offense meant or taken, brother wolf.
and when would you expect to see that in print from a Christian? I hope more often.
