But why lie about it. I have a lot of respect for other faiths, even if I do not agree with them. But lying to people about something as sacred as religion, is just plain wrong. So lots of people get disgusted by it, think it’s horrible. IS there anything anyone can do about it though? So far the plan seems like “ignore it and it shall go away.”
Danielinthewolvesden:
Actually, it wouldn’t be nearly so outrageous if they went after devout Jews, who, if they were convinced by them, could be said to have compared the merits of both religions and concluded that one way was better than another. However, what “Jews for J” tries to do is prey on their potential converts’ ignorance of what Judaism truly is. If these people fully understood the tenets and rituals of Judaism, they would never consider the idea that a person (to quote from their T-Shirts and advertisements) can be “Made Kosher by JC.”
No, because in the eyes of Judaism, Christianity is a form of idolatry, which is a sin. Granted, in their state of ignorance, they might not be performing many commandments, but it is certainly not good to insert the commission of sin (especially the sin of idolatry, which is one of the three that a Jew is required to die rather than violate!) into their lives. In addition, the Jewish community has made heavy investments in reaching out to ignorant Jews and educating them in the religion of their ancestors. Any Jew who is converted by “Jews for J” is one fewer who is likely to turn to these programs.
Chaim Mattis Keller
**
No. Not when you send mixed messages. How can you possibly reconcile the differences in the religions I’ve posted earlier. And unless they choose to ignore the differences (which is not likely if they went in search of a faith) or were complete idiots, they’ll figure out that they are living their lives with contradictory messages. Eventually one’s going to give.
**
But they’re not going to do that, based on what I said earlier.
**
Just believing that the messiah has come already puts you outside Maimonides’ 13 Articles of Faith. Believing he is the literal Son of God and is divine completely puts you out of the ballpark, regardless of any rituals you perform.
**
No problem 
I wasn’t offended. It’s just a subject I feel very strongly about.
Zev Steinhardt
<switching to nitpicking bastard mode>
Lib, I admit that I have a problem with certain things. One of the things that really gets my panties in a wad is to read charges of “fallacy” when it’s not clear that the accuser fully understands the difference between a declarative statement and an argument.
Admittedly, I am imperfect. That is why, even though I believe myself to be extremely competent in the application of logical principles, I will ask a favor from you. For my edification, please show exactly how the statements you quoted earlier are causal fallacies. It would help me tremendously were you to explain exactly what cause and effect relationship is erroneously assumed in each case, and to identify the specific type of causal fallacy shown in each statement.
<switching over to questioning/learning mode>
Disclaimer:
All my comments presuppose and are dependent upon a belief in, and acceptance of (at least for argument’s sake), God as described in the Jewish Law and the Christian Bible. If you don’t accept these concepts, PLEASE don’t bother arguing with me, because the discussion will be meaningless. I’m talking about similarities between Jewish and Christian beliefs. There are plenty of other threads where you can attack Christians and Jews all you want. I’d prefer not to participate in that.
For the record, Zev, from reading your posts prior to this thread, I have a lot of respect for you, and I hope none of this sounds like a personal attack.
/disclaimer
Are you saying that you think Christians believe God walked into Mary’s bedroom, physically had sex with her, and got her pregnant? That is (if I’m not mistaken) a Mormon belief, but it’s not a Christian belief.
Jews don’t believe that Adam and Eve sinned, and their sin not only changed them fundamentally, but also was passed down through the generations? I don’t really have a comment on this yet, but I find it interesting.
Curious: Why in the Old Testament (Jewish writings) are there so many instances of God talking with himself, using a plural noun with a singular verb? See pretty much all of the Old Testament, etc. When referring to God, it almost always uses the plural Elohim with a nonplural verb tense. What does that mean to you?
Neither do Christians.
I’d bet all the millions of sheep, doves, etc. that were slaughtered thoughout the centuries for sacrifices of atonement would be interested to know that…Why so much time in the Jewish Law, then, spent on describing how to make a sacrifice? Seems you believe very strongly in atonement through someone’s death. But Christians also believe in personal responsibility for sin, and that
The difference is that Christians believe that animal sacrifice was only a shadow, a symbol of the sacrifice that Jesus made, making further sacrifice unnecessary.
Yet Christians recognize the authority of the Jewish Law. Which means Christianity was founded and built on Judaism, which in turn means that it is, in fact, an enhanced form of the same belief in the same God.
Gentile Christians (yes, it’s an important distinction. There are many Jewish Christians. Whether you choose to believe that is immaterial) were given a different (new) covenant, and are not bound by the rituals that were given to the Jews to set them apart from the Gentiles, and give them a singular identity as a people. Christians believe that the Covenant of the Law has been fulfilled, and they have been freed from condemnation of the Law by the Covenant of Mercy. You are free to continue to practice the rituals if you choose to do so, and many people do. But now they are symbolic and celebratory, not required.
Obviously. 
me too.
The bottom line is this: yes, “Jews for Jesus” are Christians. Yes they are Jews. No, there is no contradiction in that.
Again, please no flames.
I’m just waiting for Christians for Mohammed. You see we arn’t Muslims, we’re Christians. We just believe that Mohammed was the most recent prophet.
:rolleyes:
Joe,
First of all, thank you for the kind words.
Secondly, I’ll address all your points down here (The nested quotes are giving me a headache)
Son of God
I don’t know if Christians believe God had sex with Mary or not. I would imagine not. However, they do believe that in some unique way, Jesus is God’s son in a way that no one else is.
Original Sin
Yes, we believe in the Garden of Eden, etc. However, we don’t believe that any stigma of that sin attaches itself to anyone other than the participants. We are definitely not doomed to hell because of the sins of two people.
Trinity
The Jewish commentaries comment on this extensively and several answers are given. The most prominent ones (usually used in Genesis) is that God is either talking to angels or Himself (even earthly royalty use “We” for “I.”)
Baptisn
I won’t claim to know every sect’s beliefs, but I know that in a good portion of the Christian world, you cannot get into heaven unless you’ve been baptized. YMMV.
Repentence and sacrifices
Read Isaiah. It’s perfectly clear that what God wants is true repentence, not a sacrifice brought without any true repentence. The sacrifice is a vehicle to bring one to that, but is in no way neccessary.
Authority of the New Testament
I’m sorry if this offends you, but the Gospels and other parts of the NT are not considered authoritative at all by Jews.
I’m not disputing that Christianity is founded upon Judaic roots. That doesn’t mean that it is Judaism. It has been metamorphed (is that a proper word?) into something completely different. See my analogy of the book and the tree.
Jewish rituals
Yet, those rituals are part of what defines Judaism.
To twist a common phrase: If it doesn’t walk like a duck, and it doesn’t smell like a duck and it doesn’t look like a duck and it doesn’t qauck like a duck, then IT’S NOT A DUCK!
Bottom Line
Jews for Jesus are Christians. They may be Jewish by birth, but what they are doing is anything but Jewish.
Zev Steinhardt
Joe_Cool:
While I realize you addressed your comments to zev, I think he’ll forgive me for jumping in here:
However, it is a Christian belief that there are three different “portions” of G-d, and that one of these is known as “the Son” and that this being was incarnated in the form of JC. This is incompatible with Jewish belief.
Jews do not believe that this sin condemns the soul of all future generations to damnation. Granted, it does condemn the bodies of all future generations to eventual death.
The plural form “Elo-him” is, according to Jewish tradition, intended to imply G-d acting with his many (plural) powers. The root of the word, in Hebrew, implies lordship and/or power. As for “talking to himself,” it is used to mean “thought about”, as people are doing when they talk to themselves (unless, of course, they’re nuts).
In Jewish belief, animals do not have souls of their own. Their purpose on Earth is to be (properly) used by human beings. As such, the sacrifice of animals represents the atoner forfeiting some of his property in order to achieve atonement. Said property that is to be offered must be an animal, in order that the superficial similarities between the sacrificed animal and a human being make the atoner reflect on the sorts of punishments he theoretically deserves for his sin. Not “atonement by proxy” as Christians believe of JC.
“Enhanced” implies improvement. But Judaism (Orthodox, at least) believes the Torah was already perfect as only the “Old” Testament. As such, any alteration or addition cannot be an enhancement.
However, this gets back to the previous point; if you don’t believe that there was a new covenant, which Jews don’t, you believe the rituals are still obligatory.
They are Jews who are practicing Christianity rather than Judaism. There are too many differences between the two to believe in both religions being true simultaneously.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Well, looks like I didn’t have to answer for Zev after all…
Chaim Mattis Keller
Well, this certaintly lacks a certain humility to claim to know how God delivered (or will deliver) the Messiah. I find it hard to believe there is a hard core belief in Judaism as to how the Messiah would come about specifically ruling out this possibility. And I would be suspicious, that should this possibility be specifically ruled out, such a doctrine could only have come about after Jesus came and not before – which seems suspicious (and convenient for those who maintain the messiah has not yet come) to me.
You don’t have the book of Genesis in the OT? The fall of man? I don’t know what your messiah is supposed to do regarding the fall when he does show up, but it seems to me bringing mankind back to the tree of life we were banished from would tie ends up nicely.
Well, if you do not believe that the messiah could possibly be an aspect of God, of course you don’t.
Niether does xtianity, outside of a few recent cults. Surely, this is a clensing ritual common to most xtians, as an imitation of the baptism of the Messiah.
Again, almost all xtians believe this also. I know it must be confusing to have so many false christians around. You are fortunate to be in a religion which does not have this problem to the same degree.
So, when your messiah does come, you aren’t going to write anything down about him? This would not be left for posterity? It seems to me the only real difference is xtians believe the messiah has come and Jews do not.
Er, well, loving God and your neighbor as yourself is a fairly important ritual. In light of the messiah’s teachings, I can’t see what other specific rituals might be important.
The Messiah came. That’s how. Do you honestly expect me to believe that when the messiah that you are waiting for comes, and then leaves, things are going to be exactly the same as before? Then what is the point?
Christianity is essentially a sect of Judaism. Or, perhaps Judaism is a sect of Christianity depending on how you want to score it.
DanielintheWolvesden wrote:
What? Well, I’ve never heard that before. I don’t know what church you belong to, but perhaps y’all should sit down and read the gospels at some point. If devout Jews are already saved, why did Jesus show up? But, you are probably one of these xtians who do not follow Christ’s teachings and thus this makes sense to you. Although, if you know something about devout Jews which I do not (I wonder if I have ever met one?) you may be correct.
I probably should not speak for the Roman Catholic Church, but I believe that baptism is one of its sacraments. And if you are missing one of the sacraments, you are not a member of the church and not “saved.” I do not know if this has been modified lately or not. (Of course, you may consider the Catholic Church a recent cult 8^))
That Baptism is merely symbolic is a protestant belief. Some churches (notably quaker) do not perform baptism or communion in the belief that nothing should be confused for the fact that it is only faith that can save you.
Have Jews added “Hell” to their beliefs? In the Old Testament there was only Sheol, a murky place which is not described too well.
**
Well sure accoring to the Meriam Webster defintion.
1 a : a dissenting or schismatic religious body; especially : one regarded as extreme or heretical b : a religious denomination
But, then I can make the argument that you are just a sect of Islam. Or maybe Islam is a sect of Christianity. I guess all the worlds religions are just sects.
That sounds really stupid.
The main problem is that Jews for Jesus are dishonest. There is nothing wrong with trying to convert, just do it on an honest basis.
Much of what I would respond to you has already been answered to Joe_Cool, but to summarize and fill in the missing details:
Messiah and Trinity
Judaism beleives that the messiah (and yes, notice I used a lowercase m) will be a man, albeit an extremely righteous and virtuous man. In another thread, we covered the Jewish requirements for a messiah.
As for how the messiah will arrive, that is written in the Prophets. None, however, speak of a literal Son of God.
Deification of a person is another matter altogether. Judaism beleives that God is one. Period. Not three in one. If you want to believe in a Trinity, fine. Just don’t call it Judaism.
Original Sin
See my response to Joe_Cool.
**Authority of the NT **
This was addressed by Chaim in another thread. The canon of the Jewish bible was closed well before Jesus’ time. That’s why we don’t consider anything in there authoritative.
As to whether the canon will be re-opened upon the messiah’s arrival, I don’t know. It’s a possibility I suppose. But since we don’t recognize Jesus as the messiah (and certainly not as the Messiah), the point is moot.
Rituals
Loving your neighbor and loving God are all fine and well. However, how are you to do this?
Interestingly enough, there is a story in the Talmud that is relevant to this.
A gentile went to Shammai, one of the leaders of the Jews in Israel (circa 100-200 BCE) and said he wished to convert to Judaism on condition that Shammai teach him the entire Torah while he stood on one foot. Shammai, who was notoriously short-tempered, shooed the man away upon hearing his foolish request.
The man then went to Shammai contemporary Hillel. Hillel was an extraordinarily patient man. When presented with the same condition, Hillel said OK. He then told the man: “What is hateful to you, do not do unto your neighbor. That is the essence of the Torah. The rest is commentary. Go and learn it.”
So, while loving your fellow man is all OK and well, you still need to define it.
(As an aside, you surely don’t beleive that simply ‘Love your neighbor’ is enough of a legal code for dealing with inter-personal relationships, do you?)
** After the messiah comes **
There are actually differences of opinions as to what the world will be like after the messiah comes. While world peace is one that is universally accepted (and another reason why we reject Jesus), there are others that vary. Some, for example take “a wolf shall lie with the lamb” literally. Others, like Maimonides for example, view that only figuratively.
** Bottom Line **
I don’t see how you can reconcile the two religions and say that they are one. Either Jesus atones for your sins or he doesn’t. Either he’s a part of God or he’s not. Either you believe in him to get into Heaven or your personal conduct gets you into Heaven. You can’t have both.
Zev Steinhardt
Thank you oldscratch. Without all this theology being flung around, that is exactly the essence of what I am trying to say.
Zev Steinhardt
[Moderatorial Hijack]
Zev, please don’t quote an entire already lengthy post with quotes-in-quotes just to add your comments at the end. It makes the post (and thread) much longer than it needs to be. Just quote the specific excerpt of the post you are responding to with your comments, or you could eschew quoting the other person’s post altogether. Your posts are clear and focussed enough that I think people can follow what you are responding to without you having to quote the entire previous post. Thanks.
[/Moderatorial Hijack]
Hey no problem. No here is one. Can anyone explain those stupid tshirts. the one’s that say “Jesus made me Kosher”. I’m not anything even aproximating Jewish, but my limited knowledge of what defines Kosher makes that saying,…how shall we say… a bit off.
Can anyone explain the rationale behind it.
**
The hardcore belief is quite simple. There cannot be a trinity. God is one, God is indivisible. He does not have child parts. To claim that is both idolatry and blasphemy. (remember those charges being raised against Jesus in the gospels? Probably an echo of the confrontation that arose between the Christians (and their incorporation of Mithraic ideas) and the Jews.
**
**
That’s quite a different matter from original sin. The idea that we are automatically sinful from birth is repugnant.
**
**
What must we do to be saved? Repent, and be baptised, every one of you. Sound familiar? Whatever your church’s leanings, a great many take those words literally. The Catholic church certainly requires baptism. That’s why they do it so early (or used to), to keep their kids out of limbo.
**
**
Oh, so the whole “Lamb of God” who takes away the sins of the world is just a silly metaphor? You don’t believe in atonement? Wow. I would agree with you. You must see false christians everywhere.
**
Ah, so you do believe that Jesus is necessary for salvation.
So much for personal responsibility… And no, we’re not talking about personal responsibility to accept or reject some murder by God of his own son to pay for his own laws.
I’m sorry, Gaudere, it’s just that it’s alot easier to quote in whole than figure out the nested (quote}{/b)(i)(quote)(/quote)(^$#^%%).
However, I will in the future try not to do that.
Zev Steinhardt
Yes, it’s part of the deception. They try to make a person think that they can still be Jewish after accepting Jesus. Using the word “Kosher” makes it sound even more Jewish.
Zev Steinhardt
oldscratch:
Easily. “Kosher” is a word that even people other than religious Jews associate woth religious Judaism (even if they don’t know the exact definition). This slogan leads ignorant people to think that what the missionaries are selling is not merely Judaism, but a particularly religious form of it.
Simple advertising, sort of like putting sexy women on beer advertisements even though the idea that a specific brand of beer will make one sexy (or attractive to those who are) is patently absurd. It still draws in the curious.
Chaim Mattis Keller