I wish (sports) was included in the titles of threads like these… I thought Joe Torre was a poster and I was all ready for a good smackdown, maybe even a trainwreck. 4 seconds of my life that I’ll never get back.
So managers should simply be paid more and more every year, regardless of how well they perform? Torre was overpaid, period. Being paid double the second place person is fine, if you’re doing the job remarkably better than everyone else could do. Getting bounced out of the first round of playoffs 3 years in a row with the highest payroll in the league is NOT remarkably better than everyone else.
You get paid because you perform. When he got his big dollar 3 year extension, the team wasn’t far removed from a World Series, and was competing at the highest level in the playoffs. Now? They have not been competitive in the playoffs, not for 3 years.
If you say it’s not his fault, then you can’t give him credit for 4 World Series wins, either. You only deserve credit for things you can control.
I hear he doesn’t tip well.
I thought he was a great manager in the first half of his tenure, and mediocre since then. He tends to overuse the guys in the bullpen that he trusts and underuse those that he doesn’t trust. I thought that game 2 in Cleveland was winnable and they weren’t aggressive enough trying to manufacture a run as in “Billyball”. Still, with his above average playing career and his brief greatness as a manager, I think he’s earned a plaque in Cooperstown.
A big part of his being a great manager in his first 6 years was having a great bullpen and good starters. He had in 1996 Rivera setting up Wettland and then from 1997 to 2000 he had Nelson, Stanton & Mendoza setting up Rivera and even Graeme Lloyd as a lefty specialist for part of it. For a 5 year run, he probably had the best bullpen ever put together and he won 4 out of 5. Every one of those seasons, he had some very good post-season starts. Names like Pettitte, Cone, Wells, El Duke and Clemens. It was a really good pitching staff that made Torre look smarter than he was. As far as “Billyball”, it was always Zimmer that pushed Torre for more hit-and-runs and double steals. Zimmer was not a great manager, but he seemed to have been a great bench coach. Together Torre, Zimmer and the pitching staff and a solid core of players that included only one Hall of Famer made for a great team.
Torre’s specialty has never been as an on field manager or handling pitchers (strange for an ex-catcher, but maybe that was why he moved to 3rd early in his career). His specialty was being a great manager for a veteran ball club, handling the NY & National Media and his biggest skilled turned out to be handling George “The Boss” Steinbrenner. I think it is well worth noting that this last piece is close to being a non-requirement, especially compared to 12 years ago.
For his 12 years of service on the Yankees, he will go to the Hall of Fame, he now a very rich and well respect man. He has had a chance to rack up #9 on the all time wins list and took his sub .500 winning percentage and brought it up to a .539.
For the Yankees, it was time to move on. The team is going younger, the ownership structure has changed this year, Torre kept his job longer than anyone would ever have expected. The Yankees could have handled this with more class, but in the end, it was time.
Jim
Agreed.
Yankees management behaved in its typically classless way, and got shown up big time.
From what I’ve heard, this reflects the thinking of lots of petulant Yankees “fans” (Wee Bairn isn’t one, I know). When you worship winning and the chance to bask in its reflected glow, not winning (or even worse, not playing in) the Series every year is intolerable.
I wouldn’t bet on the Yankees having anywhere near the kind of success they’ve had under Torre in the near future - and the odds are even worse if the managerial upheaval results in a substantial exodus of “underachieving” players.
Seven years and counting. 
Buh… buh… brief greatness as a manager? Brief? Just out of curiosity, which manager, apart from Bobby Cox, who is in his own league in Atlanta but has missed the playoffs twice in a row now (fire that fucking loser!), who has a longer record of “greatness?” Joe Torre is eighth all time in games won; there are seven men ahead of him.
Cox is one.
Tony LaRussa is another. In the exact same twelve seasons in which Torre has won 10 division titles, six pennants, and four World Series rings, LaRussa has five, two, and one, respectively. Throw in his year with Oakland and he has nine, five, and two. Way behind Torre.
John McGraw won the pennant only ten times in his entire career, and he played in a league where “winning the pennant” meant beating out a grand total of seven other teams.
Sparky Anderson’s best 12 years were probably his first, and during that period he won his division five times, won four pennants, and won two rings. So in that 12-year period, in which he managed Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Tony Perez, Johnny fucking Bench, George Foster, and Tom fucking Seaver, Sparky still fell well short of Torre in division titles, pennants, and Series wins in spite of the fact that he had to win one fewer playoff series to make the Series in the first place.
Between 1933 and 1935, the man who owns the all time career record for winning percentage by a manager, Joe McCarthy, missed the playoffs three straight years. Frigging loser.
Bucky Harris won two rings in his entire career and missed the playoffs far more often than he made them; his career winning percentage is under .500.
No one in the history of the game has had more success over a 12-year period as a manager than Joe Torre. I’ve made a lot of jokes about this situation before, because I honestly thought that the Yankees would never do this - would never let go of the best possible choice for manager to chase - what? someone who will do better? - but apparently I was wrong, so without jokes: I think this is absurd. I think Yankee fans should be embarassed for ripping on this man, and I think the Yankees brain trust that made this decision will sorely regret it in the months and years to come.
Look, Torre isn’t perfect, but no manager and no player will ever be. Those who are glad to see him go, let me ask you an honest question: do you really think he’s gotten worse as a manager in the last few years? The decisions that you question now, are they not the same decisions he made when he was winning all those rings? They worked then. *They’re still working now. * The Yankees haven’t missed the playoffs in a decade.
It comes to this: If you give Torre good players, he will use them well enough to get you into the playoffs and give you a chance to win the World Series. That is the most you can ask of a manager. There is no manager, past, present, or future, who can do more than that. And you know that Torre can do it.
You do not know that Girardi or Mattingly can do it. You just don’t. Girardi got one team to the Series one time, a fluky team. He then completely melted down in the face of a contentious relationship with his owner. Of course, with the Yankees, he surely won’t face anything like that, right? And Mattingly? Don Mattingly? What possible basis do you have to suspect that he can accomplish anything like what Torre has accomplished? There is none. There is no reason to fire someone who has done the best possible job a manager can do for twelve years in favor of someone whose abilities will - at absolute BEST - be equal to the guy you already have, and at worst, will be much, much worse.
Bad move, Yanks. Red Sox and Blue Jays fans must be giddy this morning. Hell, even Baltimore and Tampa Bay are smiling. A whole new world of possibility has opened up in front of them, because this move cannot improve the Yankees and emphatically can hurt them.
So… so… the argument is, when he had really great players and support staff, he was spectacularly successful, and when he had somewhat fewer great players and a somewhat weaker support staff, he was… somewhat less successful (although still more successful than most other managers)?
And this is an argument that he is a mediocre manager? What sort of magician would have the same success with a weaker roster that he had with a better roster?
You want to get paid over 2x what the next highest paid guy gets, it’s time to dust off the top hat and start making shit disappear. For an extra 4 million bucks, you better figure out how to squeeze something more from your players.
Amen!
Well, here is our fundamental disconnect. I’d maintain that what you are asking for is quite literally impossible. You are paying Torre more than twice what the next highest paid guy makes because he has demonstrated that he can do consistently what very few people can do consistently - win every year. Check out the stats in my link: Sparky Anderson had the best talent in the game for his time, and couldn’t match Torre. No one has ever been as consistently successful, year in and year out, even those with comparable levels of talent on the team. That’s why he’s worth what he’s worth: because he puts you in a position to win, every year.
You can not do more than that. You can not guarantee a Series title every year, or even every four. You can put good talent in a position to win; that’s what a manager does, that’s the definition of a good manager, and Joe Torre can do it.
Now you will find out if the same is true of Don Mattingly. Betcha it’s not.
Well with a pool of players like A-Rod, Posada, Rivera and Pettitte all potentially leaving over this or for other reasons, the Yanks could take a big step backwards. If they stay the course though and develop good young pitching, they could be right back in a few years.
I take it that nothing I posted just before you has the ring of validity about Torre and the Yankees, and this is all about spoiled Yankee fans? :rolleyes:
Jim
Jim Leyland, a good manager, just renegotiated his own contract and insisted on a one-year deal. Why can’t Torre take it as a challenge and say “Ok, I’ll take the deal, do my best job ever, win the Series, collect 8 mil, and then they’ll HAVE to give me a longer deal next year”? I know, he feels he doesn’t have to “prove” anything.
No, I was saying he was never a great field manager, and only appeared to be a great manager because of how well constructed the team was.
I thought I spelled it out in details pretty well. If you and **RickJay ** honestly think he has done a good job handling a lesser pitching staff, and in game decisions in the last 7 years, than you just don’t watch 120+ Yankee games per year.
I watched Billy Martin (in the 70s), he was pretty much the anti-Torre, he squeezed every last bit out of his team, but could not handle the veteran Egos, the Press and especially the Boss. I would like to find a manger somewhere in the middle. I strongly suspect that Joe Girardi is the type of manager the Yankees need. I am sure Joe Torre’s has overstayed his effectiveness as Yankee manager; at most, it was only going to be two more years anyway.
I take it you will be overjoyed when Willie is fired next year and after a brief search St. Joe is picked to helm the Mets.
Jim
You just cannot accept the fact that he may have, unbeknownst to you, legitimate reasons for turning down the offer, can you? If you can’t imagine it it must not exist, right?
First and foremost, if Joe Torre were to replace Willie Randolph this afternoon, I’d be the happiest Met fan in Branchburg, New Jersey. Randolph is a good example of the kind of manager you’re very likely to get now - has strengths, has weaknesses, and when you add them all together, you get a manager that is perfectly average. Give him the most talented roster in the NL by a wide margin, as he had last year, and he’ll get you to or near to the World Series; reduce the margin of talent by a hair, and it’s a crapshoot.
See, the thing is, I know Torre isn’t a saint, and that he has weaknesses (although, honestly, I’d like you to tell me who the manager is who could take the bullpen the Yankees ran out there this year and “handle it effectively;” there’s “Torre can’t handle a bullpen” and then there’s “The bullpen is Kyle Farnsworth, Luis Vizcaino, and at one point, Jose Veras.” It’s easy to say the manager is handling the staff badly when the staff blows goats).
What I think Yankee fans are overlooking is that, like ballplayers, all managers have weaknesses. Your white horse savior, Joe Girardi, he has them, too. Did you watch 120+ Marlins games in 2006? How the hell do you know that Girardi is what the Yankees need? How do you know that he’s not even worse with the pitching staff than Torre? What you know is that: (1) He has one year of managerial experience, in which he finished below .500; and (2) He was fired because he couldn’t handle a difficult owner. Take Torre’s strengths and his weaknesses and put them all together and you have someone who gave you a chance to win the World Series every year. You can’t say that about Girardi; you have no idea what Girardi is, what he’s good at, what he’s bad at. You’re just enamored of the unknown quantity, of the image you have in your head of this brilliant young tactician - but there’s no evidence to suggest that this is an accurate picture. There IS evidence to suggest that Torre can be a winning manager, so on balance, firing the latter for the former makes no sense.
The way it was played out, no. None of the 50 ESPN commentators who have put their two cents in think it has anything to do with anything other than the lack of respect the offer showed, so it’s not just some crazy theory I pulled out of my ass.
Please do tell what other logical conclusion one should form when: Torre last week states he loves the team, loves the players, knows George is a dick but knows that it comes with the territory and can handle it, wants to continue with the club, wants another chance to show he can win the Series with the Yanks again, doesn’t quit when the season ended, doesn’t quit when negotiations without him take a week, goes into a salary meeting with the team, receives an insulting offer and turns it down. What is the sensible person to extrapolate from this series of events, do tell.
I never said you should. Out of all the overpaid positions under the Yankee employ, you think Torre is the worst example? The Yankee manager should make more than other managers, just as the Yankee Closer should make more, and the Yankee shortstop should make more and the Yankee GM should (and does) make more than the same positions held by other clubs. The Yankees hire the best. If Torre is no longer the best, why the crappy* offer? If they lowball Posada, will he be blamed for going elsewhere?
There are 22 other managers who didn’t do what Torre did this year, and there are zero managers who did what Torre did in the past 12 years.
Are you saying that he didn’t do a good job? He’s not worth the money? Then don’t offer him a contract. I wouldn’t agree with that, but I wouldn’t have a problem with it either. I certainly cannot call Joe Torre a douchbag over this (and I’m a Met fan). If you are offered a pay cut, your employer doesn’t think much of you…and it’s pretty clear that the Yankees no longer think much of Torre.
Jim Leyland is 150 years old. He has talked about retiring for quite some time now. Different situation.
*I don’t think 5mil is a crappy amount, I’m talking about the length and incentives included. I’d have a slightly different feel if he was offered a 3 year 16 million contract that is a pay-cut, but still shows faith in the man.
**I also understand that many folks struggle just to get by and when talking about pro sports salaries I keep in mind that they are all overpaid compared to ambulance drivers and school teachers and such.
He may not look it, but for the record Joe Torre is older than Jim Leyland. And once a player contract is signed, it guaranteed, so you can’t do anything if a player starts sucking three years into a ten year deal. You can do something if the players contract is up and he has been sucking for the last three years of the deal, which is give him a lesser contract, which is what they did with Torre.
Bernie Williams’ play went way downhill the last couple of years he played. The Yanke had the chance to keep him for 15 million in 2006 I think, but instead chose to buy him out for 3.5 mil, then signed him to play that year for 1.5 million. It’s a business, you get paid based on what have you done for me lately. Bernie couldn’t legitamately argue that he was a great player five years earlier, and therefore desereved 15 mil in 2006 because of this anymore than Torre could argue for his past success.
He is younger than Joe Torre.
People it is called Baseball-reference.com. Know it, use it.