Second, while there may be no explicit rule against throwing your medals during a protest, it is clear that a service member may be punished by non-judicial punishment or court martial under Article 133 or 134 if it were ever done, even if he was in civilian dress.
John Kerry was a civilian at the time, and not under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ. But you asked how the UCMJ would have applied to a service member. This is how.
Am I missing something - aren’t Navy regulations about uniforms only pertainent to people currently IN the Navy? The Navy can’t impose their regulations on me because I choose to wear a military surplus coat, right? Or my grandfather who used to pull out his uniform (ok, the hat - the uniform stopped fitting long before I was born) once a year on Veterns Day?
And I have government issued property in my pocket covered by US Law. Currency. Can’t make my own. There are regulations on how I can spend it (I can’t give it to someone in exchange for sex), but it is my property to burn if I so desire.
The military can in fact govern uniform wear after separation. A person honorably discharged may wear his/her uniform to military related gatherings, funerals, and a few other things. I’m not sure what the penalty is, but I do know that there is one.
That person may wear military-type stuff, but no rank insignia or decorations are authorized for anything but what is approved. For example, I can wear my BDUs if I want to, but I have to remove the name tapes and rank insignia. If I can find the governing rules (at least for the Air Force, should be AFI 36-2903) I’ll post it.
OK, I found what I was looking for here (Warning:PDF file) It runs down all of the occasions when a retiree or separatee is authorized to wear their uniform. The one thing that stands out is this line:
I couldn’t find anything about the penalty for violating that regulation. However, knowing what the penalty would be for an active duty serviceman, given the above I’d imagine it would be the same. I’m not real hip to finding out, though.
It really, really pains me to actually be on DtC’s side in all this.
I see no contradiction in Kerry’s actions. Times change, and people change. How many of us are disgusted now by things we were proud of once? The reverse happens as well. As the years pass, one mellows.
His explanation of the medal-throwing incident is like his position on “gay” marraige: he was asked about it recently, and it went like this:
(Sen. Kerry): I am NOT for gay marriage, but I am for civil unions
(Newsman): Did you vote against gay marriage?
(Sen. Kerry): Uh, I think that gay people have the right to…"
(Newsman): Senator, do you support the “Defence of marriage bill”?
(Sen. Kerry): Well, I think that all people have the right to…
(Reporter): Senator, do you support a constitutional amendment in Massachusetts to ban gay marriage?
(Sen. Kerry): I think gay people should have the same righs as everyone…
Its like this…everytime Kerry is asked to take a stand on something, he waffles…wants to have it both ways…
This is the scary thing… why, Kerry… he once stood… IN THE SAME CROWD AS JANE FONDA!!! Can you believe it? What a traitor to our country, to stand around in a large group with someone who would take a controversial stance agaisnt the war years later. This is an issue, it really is.
Republicans are pretty desparate aren’t they? They have draft-dodging chickenhawk and they’re trying to find anyway to undermine someone who had the conscious to oppose the war and the sense of duty to fight anyway, when Bush didn’t have either. So being in a group with Jane Fonda is now supposed to “draw fire” to Kerry. At least he knows what the metaphor means.
The picture is becoming clear that you DO have a problem with him throwing the ribbons. In the last quote, you forgot to make it seem like you were only opposing the “contradiction”, and instead attacked the original throwing.
There’s nothing wrong with you doing so, of course. This would have in fact made a more honest OP, because there is no contradiction here.
He threw the ribbons to protest something which he felt badly needed to be protested, and he wanted to make a strong statement. By its effect on you, it seems that he was correct in his assessment that it would make a strong statement.
That really has nothing to do with whether or not he is proud of his service, proud of his medals, or anything like that.
All it means was that he felt the protest was important enough to justify his actions. That’s it.
You disagree. That’s fine. But don’t try to act like there is some contradiction, because there really isn’t.
Throwing the medals wouldn’t have been my choice, sure. But they were his choice. I am not criticizing other protest participants who threw their medals because, fairly or not, they are not on the front pages of the paper with the medals so prominently mentioned. And yes, there is documentation that, at some point in his Senate career, John Kerry displayed the medals on the wall in his office.
If he was so proud of his medals, he shouldn’t have thrown them on the ground.
I think what you’re missing is the part where you explain why you have any god damned right to tell Kerry what he “should” have done with medals HE earned by putting his OWN ass in danger.
As I’ve said before, John Kerry chose at the time to use his medals to make a public political statement.
John Kerry is now running for President. I am registered to vote in the presidential election. That, plus my own status as an honorably discharged Navy veteran gives me ample right to ask the question.
I did not choose to make the medals a political issue. John Kerry did that when he threw them on the ground.
Maybe you should be asking why Bush doesn’t have any… I would think dodging the draft and asking other people to go to war is more hypocritical than fighting in a war and then questioning that war.
And while you’re at it, Mr. Moto, you might explain why you think this issue is more important than a war we were lied to into fighting, vast deficits as far as the eye can see and a President who can’t bring himself to level with the American people and who has disgraced our country in the eyes of the world.
I mean, over 500 Americans have died for no good reason, we’ve bullied people who were formerly our allies into hating us by making asses of ourselves and your obsessing over Kerry throwing ribbons instead of medals 30 years ago? What’s up with that?
And, incidentally, this is the third time I’ve brought it up. Why are you ignoring this issue?
And not that anyone’s asked, but just for the heck of it, I have this small piece advice: Spare us your sanctimony and get over it. We have a hell of a lot of far more important things to worry about than what IMHO are your tormented and blatantly self-serving notions of hypocricy.
I was in the Navy too and I don’t give a shit, nor do I think that gives me any special status to demand explanations from Kerry for what he did with his medals. I never saw combat and I’m not about to question anybody who did.
Kerry owes me nothing. He owes you nothing. The fact that he keeps his medals in a drawer is about the lamest reason for trashing a politician’s honor that I’ve ever heard. You’re obviously not going to get any kind of answer that you want (and what you really want is for Kerry supporters to suddenly recoil with horror and admit what a horrible person he is). Nobody cares about this but people who are simply trying to find a way-- any way at all-- to tarnish Kerry’s service record so that it doesn’t stand out in such sharp contrast to Shrub’s.
I think you’re being disingenuous if you’re going to whine about Kerry saving his medals but completely ignore the fact that Bush lied his way into a war, has consistently jerked around the troops that are serving there, cutting bonus pay, charging them for hospital food, extending their tours, extending their enlistments and daring the enemy to kill them. I won’t even go into the AWOL thing. The way he’s handles this war shows a contempt for the troops themselves. Kerry made a political gesture to show contempt for the government. If you can’t see the difference, I can’t help you.
Bush-bashers are anally obsessed in turning any discussion of any issue that may reflect badly in any way against the Democratic candidate only and solely into yet another Bush-bashing. In furtherance of this agenda, they will willifully misrepresent the question, ignore cites, and present any mention of the issue - even the very first - as an “obsession”.
Kerry wants to have it both ways. When it was popular to be a Viet Nam protestor, he made a public display of throwing away the ribbons that represented his decorations. Now that he wants to be President, he wants to display symbols of the same decorations as part of his qualifications for office - the same honors he repudiated earlier.
I realize this is a painful subject to the usual suspects on the SDMB. You would like very much to shout down, not simply criticism, but even discussion of any topic that might lead to the notion that the Democrat du jour is anything less than a stainless knight. Nonetheless, it is a legitimate subject for discussion. And it is going to come up in the campaign.
Stick your fingers as far into your ears as you like, shout down your opponents as loudly as you like - there are going to be questions in the campaign other than “Is Bush stupid, or bad?”
If it is not permissible to post a question about a candidate unless you are willing to vote for him, then shut the fuck up about Bush.
I wanted to keep the discussion to the topic on hand. There’s plenty of Bush bashing on this message board.
Sure, George W. Bush is no war hero. I don’t recall that he ever claimed to be. I never claimed to be one, either.
My father served in the Army Reserve from 1966 to 1972. I think the heaviest piece of gear he ever handled was a manual typewriter, and the hottest, most exotic place he ever got sent was Fort Polk, Louisiana. How would you describe his service?
I’ll tell you how the government describes the service of Geroge W. Bush, John Kerry, my dad, and me, as a matter of law. Honorable.
As the old saying goes, “They also serve that stand and wait.”
If you want to bash Bush, take it to one of the other ten thousand Bush bashing threads. Or start a new one. I don’t care.
