Yes, the dialogue with Kerry was paraphrased. However, I stand on my assertion: Kerry will NEVER give you a yes or no answer! He always wants it his way, and will never answer any question in a straightforward manner.
In this, he greatly resembles his pal and idol, Bill Clinton. 
Mr. Moto and Shodan,
You are blatantly ignoring the point of my posts and instead whining about so-called Bush bashing.
According to Republicans, no extensive criticism of the president is ever legitmate. It’s all “Bush bashing.” I have found that this is especially true when one has their facts straight.
Mr. Moto, I am asking you for the fourth time…No, check that. I am now demanding — DE-FUCKING-MANDING that you explain why is Kerry’s 30-year-old symbolic gesture is so much more important to you than the very real and extensive damage Bush is demonstrably doing? It’s a legitmate question. Perhaps you consider war, death and security to be trivial issues but I do not. Stop hiding behind the skirt of sanctimony and come out and answer the question. I mean, as long as we’re discussing character issues…
And nice touch Ralph124c. Misquoting Kerry and then repsonding when caught smearing him as a distorter by comparing him to Clinton whom I belive you Republicans accused of Murdering Vinctent Foster for knowing too much about Whitewater (and what was it they were they guilty of again?). Yes, that really makes me want to respect your opinion.
That’s what I like about you Republicans. You have such fine characters.
“…When it was popular to be a Viet Nam protestor, he made a public display of throwing away the ribbons that represented his decorations…”
In 1971? Popular? No, not by a long shot. You would have had to have been there, but the scorn and contempt pored down upon the anti-war movement exceeded exponentially anything currently in vogue. I could tell you, but I don’t think you would believe me, and I cant honestly blame you: if you don’t remember it, you would never believe it. They hated our guts. No other way to say it.
But we were right, and they were wrong. And the struggle continues.
Stop lying about how you have “questions” and “concerns.” Instead just be honest and say, “I would like to keep harping on a distortion of what Kerry did 30 years ago, and I’ll harp and harp on it, and refuse to listen to explanations, because what I want is to help make this a slander meme of the upcoming election. We can’t survive if this election is about Bush, so we need to insinuate that Kerry is unpatriotic and inconsistent so HARP HARP HARP HARP.”
[QUOTE=Shodan]
If it is not permissible to post a question about a candidate unless you are willing to vote for him, then shut the fuck up about Bush.
[QUOTE]
when have I asked disingenuous “debate” questions about Bush? I keep my Bush bashing threads in the pit and don’t try to present them as phony voting concerns. My objection to the OP is not that he’s bashing Kerry (cuz who gives a shit?) but that he’s disguising a rant as a debate.
Moto; The questions about Bush are relevant if you’re serious about weighing Kerry’s actions in the context of an election. You’re suggesting that keeping some medals in a drawer makes him unfit to be POTUS while simultaneously ignoring the unprecedented recklessness, irresponsibility, dishonesty and complete lack of respect for the lives of US soldiers that has been displayed by the incumbant. The answer to your OP is that that no matter how confused or annoyed you are by Kerry’s actions after the war or his pride in service now (and I still fail to see a contradiction) even looking at him in the worst light possible he still towers above what’s in the WH now.
Distortions? Hah!
My assertions are all factual, and meticulously well cited. And I’ve been fair to John Kerry. I’ve treated his genuine heroism in combat with all due respect. I’ve done the same with his antiwar stance.
If there’s a victim of a distortion here, it’s me.
Let me help you out there, Moto. The classic form for the complaint you want to make is as follows:
“When, oh when, will you cease to misrepresent and mischaracterize my posts!”
It is a formula of long standing, created by a Master of the form.
Once again Mr. Moto ignores my question. He refuses to answer. He will simply not explain why Kerry’s symbolic gesture of over 30 years ago is more important to him than the very real, very large-scale damage President Bush has been inflicting on the country.
Beware the character issue, Mr. Moto. It cuts both way and half your buttocks us on the ground already.
Man, if this is the best the Republicans can do, it’s going to be a fun election!
Bring it on, Baby! Bring it on! Yee-hee!
And isn’t it awful how we Democrats are engaging in the politics of personal destruction? It’s just like that awful Al Gore who says he invented the Internet!
I’d just like to say that if you Republicans can go around trashing Democrats by telling lies you’re in no position to complain when we trash your guys by telling the truth. There are a lot of expresisons for people who can dish is out but can’t take it and my personal favorite is Republican.
Now, Moto, answer my damn question!
I will be more than happy to debate Bush vs. Kerry with you in another thread, braintree. But I won’t participate in the hijacking of my thread into yet another Bush bash.
The topic on hand is Kerry’s treatment of his medals. If you’re not going to debate said topic, bail.
What kind of sustained conversation on the topic can we have? Yeah, Kerry tossed some ribbons or something, and yeah, if you’re looking for something to harp on that’s almost as good as having once been in the same photograph as Jane Fonda. Do you want 1000 dopers to come in and express their outrage? I think it’s been adequately expressed that this whole medal thing is a horseshit attempt at smearing Kerry. You don’t have any “questions” and your “concern” is fake. The thread is exhausted. Move on. Maybe you can open a thread on the Jane Fonda psuedo-issue and we can go over there and tell you it’s a horseshit issue, then you can open a thread on how Kerry has this really confusing pro civil union, anti gay marriage stance that confuses nobody, and we can tell you that’s horeshit, and then you can open a thread about Kerry might have botox injections in his forehead, and we’ll tell you that’s horseshit, and you can continue to scrabble around looking for libel memes and we’ll keep telling you they’re horseshit and meanwhile Bush will still be a lying weasel and you’ll say we’re not talking about THAT.
Just a quick question. Were you paying attention at all while you were in?
You didn’t know that medals were governed by uniform regulations, which every sailor should know.
And you had to ask which specific articles of the UCMJ would keep a sailor from throwing medals, when you should have known damn well that the military can always prosecute under the general article. That’s why they put it in there.
Hell, they taught us this stuff in boot camp. Were you just twiddling your thumbs at the time?
Mr. Moto let me explain to you why I believe my question is relevent to this thread.
You have made it clear that you consider the issue of what John Kerry did with his medals as being vitally important to you. Important enough to make an issue of it on the Straight Dope Message Board with the idea that it somehow rates as a disqualifying factor in his hopes for the presidency.
My point is as follows: I am simply baffled as to why you are giving the issue the weight that you are. From where I sit, it’s an absurdly trivial matter compared to others which strike me as being of far greater relevency and importance. The reason I Bush bash, as you call it, is because he sincerely strikes me as being an amazingly corrupt and incompetent president.
See? It’s not so hard to understand. Not if you really want to, that is. And because it directly relates to your point, it does not constitute “hijaking the thread.”
Now, answer my goddam question!
Moto, did you bother to read your own links? All they show is the regulations for how uniforms should be worn and what can be done while in uniform. It says nothing about what can be done with medals except that they can’t be worn out of uniform by miltary personel. The medal page you linked to just shows what the medals are and why they’re awarded. It says nothing about how they may be treated after service.
The intent of every uniform reg you’ve cited is to govern the behavior of military personel while in uniform and to prevent miltary personel from appearing to give official impramatur to political casues and to prevent any sort of falsification, counterfeiting of medals or imposture of rank or status. Medals are governed only as they pertain to dress, to imposture and to counterfiting. It is not forbidden to throw them or to destroy them after service as long as it is not done in uniform or in any appearance of military capacity.
As you said, Kerry was a civilian when he tossed his ribbons and was violating nothing in the UCMJ by doing so.
Tell you what, can you cite me a single case of any ex-military person being charged or prosecuted for throwing a medal or a ribbon?
I didn’t say is was disqualifying to the presidency, nor did I even imply that it was.
It just is an inconsistency that points to a matter of character.
It is not disqualifying to the presidency in the least. If I were a Democrat, this issue alone would not keep me from voting for John Kerry. If this were an issue that attached to President Bush, it would not keep me from voting for him, as I fully intend to do.
The reason it is important to me, as I have stated many times, is that these medals have a meaning, codified by law and respected by military custom. They represent the gratitude of our entire country for what John Kerry did.
Our entire country. And that includes me.
And the cavalier use of those medals is insulting to many people. It is a rejection of the gratitude we have given to John Kerry.
I, personally, feel insulted by this. And I’m not alone. This is an issue among very many veterans, and they are a powerful voting force.
Did you bother to read them? From U.S. Navy Uniform Regulations, referenced above.
**(2) Former Members of the Armed Forces. Unless discussed in DOD Directive 1334.1 or Title 10 U.S. Code Sec. 772, former members who served honorably during a war and whose most recent service was terminated under honorable conditions, may wear the uniform of the highest grade held during their service only on the following occasions and during travel related to those occasions.
(a) Military funerals, memorial services, weddings and inaugurals.
(b) Patriotic parades or ceremonies in which any active or reserve United States military unit is taking part. Wearing of the uniform or any part of it at any other time or for any other purpose is prohibited.**
DOD Directive 1334.1, referenced here, reads as follows:
**3.1. Members of the Armed Forces (including retired members and members of
Reserve components). The wearing of the uniform is prohibited under any of the
following circumstances:
3.1.1. At any meeting or demonstration that is a function of, or sponsored by
an organization, association, movement, group, or combination of persons that the
Attorney General of the United States has designated, pursuant to E.O. 10450 as
amended (reference (b)), as totalitarian, fascist, communist, or subversive, or as having
adopted a policy of advocating or approving the commission of acts of force or violence
to deny others their rights under The Constitution of the United States, or as seeking to
alter the form of Government of the United States by unconstitutional means.
3.1.2. During or in connection with the furtherance of political activities,
private employment or commercial interests, when an inference of official sponsorship
for the activity or interest could be drawn.
3.1.3. Except when authorized by competent Service authority, when
participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches,
rallies or any public demonstration (including those pertaining to civil rights), which
may imply Service sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is
conducted.
3.1.4. When wearing of the uniform would tend to bring discredit upon the
Armed Forces.
3.1.5. When specifically prohibited by regulations of the Department
concerned.
3.2. Former Members of the Armed Forces. Unless qualified under another
provision of this Directive or under the provisions of 10 U.S.C. 772 (reference ©),
former members who served honorably during a declared or undeclared war and whose
most recent service was terminated under honorable conditions may wear the uniform in
the highest grade held during such war service only upon the following occasions and in
the course of travel incident thereto:
3.2.1. Military funerals, memorial services, weddings, and inaugurals.
3.2.2. Parades on national or State holidays; or other parades or ceremonies
of a patriotic character in which any Active or Reserve United States military unit is
taking part.
Wearing of the uniform or any part thereof at any other time or for any other purpose is
prohibited.
DODD 1334.1, August 11, 1969**
Since John Kerry was a former service member, using a part of the uniform, and using it for a purpose not enumerated here, he was in violation of the law and U.S. Military regulations, even as a civilian.
Doesn’t matter. I’m not arguing that it was a crime worthy of prosecution. I’m not even saying it’s even something that he should apologise for, or haven’t you been listening.
I’m saying it’s something he should explain.
No, you’re not.
There is no contradiction between throwing the ribbon in a protest, and at the same time being proud of them.
All it means is that he thought the protest was important enough that he had to make the very strongest statement he could, and he decided that it was important enough to throw the ribbons.
In fact, being proud of the ribbons makes the protest MORE powerful, not less. It’s like saying “I am proud of these ribbons, but even so I am throwing them, because that is how important I think this protest is.” If he didn’t care about the ribbons, the protest would be weaker. “I’ll just throw these things I don’t care about” is not the most ringing endorsement.
So no, there is no contradiction. You are mad because he threw the ribbons at all, as you have made clear in almost every one of your posts, by saying things like “Throwing those ribbons on the ground is an equivalent act of disrespect” and “it is possible to oppose a war without throwing the heartfelt thanks of your country on the ground.”
He thought the protest was important enough to justify his actions, you do not. But at least argue that issue, instead of making up a nonexistant contradiction.
Moto, nothing you just quoted is anywhere near on point. Kerry wasn’t wearing his uniform. He wasn’t wearing his ribbons. Nothing he did is forbidden by these regs. you’re making a specious distortion of their intent. They regulate what can be done in uniform. They say nothing about what can be done with medals after service.
OK, you never specifically used the word disqualifying, however this is the only reason you’ve given for being against Kerry and you keep harping on it. I apologize if I misinterpreted you but it is fair to say that you are making one humongous deal about this — which I still find baffling.
And you still need to explain why a 30-year-old symbolic gesture is obviously more important to you than the very real and awful things of real and awful human consequence that are being done today. GWB’s miserable track record of stunning incompetence and corruption doesn’t seem to bother you in the least but an admittedly contradictory gesture by an angry young man who felt betrayed by his country — but was still proud of his military service — seems to be a determining factor. Otherwise, why the big deal?
Again, your approach still fails to make sense to me. Don’t you care that we went to war for no good reason? Don’t you care that GWB is bestowing us the finanial structure of a banana republic? Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of us — especially if it appears justified? You may want to dismiss it but other people vote too.
I really don’t get it. How on earth does a long-ago symbolic gusture trump all that? Can you really not see why that wouldn’t make sense to a lot of people?
Oh, and by the way, none of the above constitutes Bush bashing. Those are my honest opions about his stewardship as president. If I was going to Buh bash I’d bring up the AWOL, his cocaine use, his questionable business dealings, womanizing and all that. But I’m not. I’m saying that by any reasonable standard he’s an abundantly rotten president and that’s perfectly fair game. You’re free to disagree but Kerry isn’t the only guy running in this election. A little contrast and compare is certainly called for.
And there’s something else I don’t get: who cares what the friggin’ military regulations are? IT’S A PROTEST! There are times in life when things are so wrong you take it upon yourself to decide that you don’t care what the rules are. You’re going to do what you think is right. Remember the Boston Tea Party? Well, guess what? It was against the law! So Kerry decides to get rid of his ribbons and keep his medals. So what?
I don’t get it. Why is this important? What exactly is the point?