Not even the crappy, stupid, Duggar kind. We apparently don’t know what kind of counseling the sisters he molested got. In all probability they were given nothing or the usual blame the victim bullshit that governs the Duggar cult because the Duggars are uneducated, dumb, sexist, homophobic religious fanatics. Worse, arrogant, educated, dumb, sexist homophobic religious fanatics who want to force the rest of us to live under the same stupid rules that govern their deeply dysfunctional lives.
We’re not discussing a religious tenet here. This is not a dogmatic pillar of any faith. It’s a singular point of an example counseling session. It’s a fallacy to argue that every single Gothard expression is one they believe. If Gothard is a Red Sox fan, it’s impossible to imagine that JimBob is a Yankees fan?
No, no. You cannot assert, with certainty, that they believe something like this when your only evidence is that they followed Gothard and he did.
When Obama was running for President, I criticized those people who sought to make hay over Rev. Wright’s rhetorical excesses. I said that there is no reason whatsoever to assume that Obama agreed with Wright, merely because Obama followed Wright’s general teachings.
Oddly enough, when I said that, no one condemned me for being overly legalistic or suggested I was some sort of fraud.
I’m sorry, that’s not good enough. Bricker requires an enrollment form, in triplicate, for each child, for a known Gothard counseling center. Otherwise, it’s all unproven and we’re horrible people for defaming this good, religious family with our scandalous insinuations.
ETA: I see the ridiculous false equivalency has arrived…
YOU know that sexual assault is about power, and I know that it’s about power. But THEY believe it’s about lust. That’s what Gothard teaches. Honey may have exaggerated, yes. But they do indeed believe that the victim bears some responsibility.
They certainly aren’t the only ones who teach this. Why do you think women in radical Islamic sects are forced to wear burqas – to avoid sunburn?
They endorse him. They tout his teachings, his conferences, his materials for religious instruction, and refused to distance themselves from him when he publicly expressed his “regret” for defrauding his underage employees by sexually harassing them. They publicize his institute on they website.
What EVIDENCE do you have that they don’t follow him to the letter?
ETA - and I never implied you were a fraud. In fact, I outright stated that you were no doubt very good at your job. BUT this is not your job, and it is reasonable to expect that a family that overtly and publicly follows a particular religious leader would agree with said leader.
Not only did I NOT indicate that you were a fraud (did you confuse the use of “defrauded,” because I honestly cannot imagine the inference you made there) but I outright said you were no doubt good at your job. But since all evidence indicates that they are Gothard adherents, it seems like an extraordinary claim to state that they don’t. Remember, this is a man who was forced out of his position due to sexual harassment of UNDERAGE church members. AFTER that scandal, they spoke at the conference at his institute. That may be some sort of indicator that they disbelieve some of the most basic tenets of his religion, but I don;t see it. Please provide evidence that they don’t follow certain aspects of his religion.
If we were having a discussion about sexual assault victims in an Islamic society and the collective response of that society, I probably would not have raised a similar objection.
But if someone had asserted that the parents of a girl who was sexually assaulted believed it was her fault, and we know this, because they are Muslim, we would be having this identical conversation.
Actually, of course, we wouldn’t. Because anyone who said such a thing would be roundly condemned, and I would only be one of many voices pointing out how unsupported this claim was.
I dunno. Have you found Gothard documents explaining why the Red Sox are better than the Yankees? If so, I will accept that sports fandom is an integral part of the church.
Islam is a multifaceted religion. I can easily find evidence that Muslims don’t all agree on the One true way to deal with sexual abuse. Can you show evidence that adherents to the Gothard version of Christianity have a similar diversity of opinion?
Except that as I read it, Gothard’s cult is not comparable to Islam. It’s comparable to a Sharia-practicing mosque whose imam fondles underage girls in his care and who publishes tracts blaming the victims of assault.
Nobody is saying that all Christians believe that victims of sexual assaults are responsible for the assault. Folks are saying that Gothard has published materials making that charge, and that the Duggars appear to go along with a lot of what he says about sexuality and modesty.
Raise your hand if you understand who bears the burden of persuasion in an argument.
Your hand would not be raised.
It’s always up to the person who raises the initial claim to advance proof in support of his proposition. If you advance a claim, I deny it, and then you say, “Well, prove me wrong!” you have committed the fallacy of “argument from ignorance.”
Do you understand this fallacy and what it means, and why it’s a fallacy?
YOU compared it to Islam, not me. But ultimately, that’s completely irrelevant. You made the rather extraordinary claim that’s fair to assume (against all evidence) that the Duggars eschew certain teachings of Gothard. Even one example would be sufficient. Everyone else in this thread is (reasonably, imho) assuming that hey embrace his other teachings, so it logical to assume that they embrace this one as well. What is your evidence that they don’t?
Yes. But the missing link is: do the Duggars go along with this, which is about assault and NOT about sexuality or modesty? Honey says they do. I say that’s not a justified claim.
The Duggars and people who belong to their particular brand of religion.
I’m not talking about mainstream Muslims and/or Christians. I’m talking about your extreme fundamentalists. And I think you know it.
We’ve given you plenty of cites to show that the sect the Duggars belong to teach that girls bear a responsibility NOT to tempt men’s desires. (NOT that they are totally at fault, but that they do share some of the blame).
And THIS is what the program teaches about sexual abuse.
Notice certain parts under, “Why did God let it happen?”:
-immodest dress
-indecent exposure
There’s also a section called “Is there Any Guilt”. As well as “If Abused Was Not At Fault”. Notice the IF part.
If that’s not enough for you, I give up. Bricker, the Straight Dope is not a court of law, and no one is required to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt here. You play this game every time and I can’t be the only one who’s tired of it.
Don’t you think these followers of a small cult, who advocate its teachings to the extent of turning Ms. Duggar into a human t-shirt cannon, might be presumed to follow said teachings across the gamut? If I meet a Catholic, that person may be for or against abortion. Casual believers believe whatever they want.
If I meet a member of a small cult that only a complete nutjob would be a member of, I think the presumption is that he takes his religion a little more seriously.
If the Duggars were casual about their beliefs, they could choose a less shitty religion. Is there anywhere you’re aware of that they don’t vapidly toe the line?
If you told me your nana is a, “Serious Fucking Catholic.” I’d assume she’d be against abortion. I see no evidence that these whakadoos aren’t Serious Fucking Gothtards.
My hand is ABSOLUTELY raised. In fact, I established why I believe that it is reasonable to assume that the Duggars do believe this utter crap. I then asked you to explain why YOU assume that they don’t. Given the evidence that they adhere to the teaching of Gothard, please explain why that’s still in doubt for you.
