In all your posts you’ve said absolutely nothing about the impact Josh’s crimes had on his victims. It’s like you have zero concern or even awareness of them. Josh’s actions didn’t exist in a vacuum, they had real and life-long consequences for at least five young girls. So forgive me if I’m not that worried about the stigma on poor Josh, because the impact on his victims is much, much worse.
I was curious about what age pedophilia could first manifest in a person, so I Googled a bit, found the following, but it only raised more questions.
“What the Josh Duggar Fiasco Can Teach Us About Pedophilia”
I did find this interesting:
“…All of this points either to the genes or prenatal womb environment, or both, meaning that pedophilia is innate, unchosen and as fixed as anyone else’s sexuality.”
It also had a link to this:
“Arkansas Police Destroy Record of Josh Duggar Investigation”
http://time.com/3894843/josh-duggar-police-record-destroyed/
“…Duggar was accused of fondling five girls in 2002 and 2003.”
So it was more than once.
I posted yesterday about the show being pulled by TLC, but I hadn’t heard your info above.
A judge ordered the records destroyed? Cover-up much? The Duggars are so ingrained in Arkansas politics that I expect there will be quite a few records destroyed over the next few weeks.
More examples of the Duggar’s attitudes towards sexual ASSAULT.
I hope one of the daughters breaks away from this crazy clan and explains how things really went down when the cameras stopped rolling. It’s so terrible, yet fascinating at the same time.
The most recent observation (?) holds that the alleged friend of Jim Bob, Officer Child Porn, was also some sort of licensing agent that allowed Josh to own a car lot. I have no idea if that’s verifiable, but depending on the timing, could explain much. Also, apparently Josh was already being something (investigated?) for a purported $50,000+ in fraud. Just the laundry keeps piling up. All with good, old mom and dad pretending it didn’t exist so they could whore their kids out.
I don’t know.
But it’s certainly inapplicable to sexual assault, and what the Duggars believe about sexual assault is the basis for Honey’s claim and my attack on that claim.
Maybe the Duggars never took Womens Studies in college and haven’t learned the trope about sexual assault and so it does not figure into their ideology about sexual assault having to do with wanton sluts who are asking for it (while sleeping fully dressed in their beds at age five).
It’s beyond cavil that they are unproven.
But I don’t agree that it’s incorrect to call them “inaccurate,” as well.
When a gratuitous assertion is made, it may be equally gratuitously denied. The assertion is that the claims are accurate. When I call them “inaccurate,” I am denying their accuracy. This is not a new claim on my part for which I bear the burden of persuasion. It’s the gainsay of the gratuitous assertion. Substantiating a claim belongs to the person making it; denying an unsubstantiated claim is a freebie.
“Baselessness,” should be obvious as well: without suitable evidence upon which to base a claim, it’s a baseless claim.
And I remain genuinely baffled as to why it’s necessary to pepper legitimate attacks against the Duggars and the FRC with these unsupportable claims. There’s plenty of obvious, legitimate criticisms that can be leveled here. There are plenty of others that are debatable, and can at least be argued.
Why, in the midst of this wealth of ammunition, does anyone choose to use a crappy argument like Honey’s? It’s as though I walked into an armory, bypassed the full auto rifles, the large bore handguns, and the anti-personnel grenades and said “Ah ha! I shall attack them with this large soap bubble!”
It’s almost as though the situation has created a feeding frenzy. You pointed out Guin’s self-contradictory sentences – what does through a person’s mind to type out “I sought forgiveness from those I had wronged,” and then three sentences later angrily proclaim “Not his victims!” It’s almost like a hunger to get something out there, anything to show how…how…how WRONG those dang Duggars are.
Why does anyone tolerate that? Why are kaylasdad and I the only two to point out the absurdity of that type of criticism?
You have a teenager that sexually fondled his prepubescent siblings. Why isn’t that enough outrage? It’s a bizarre, disgusting revelation. It’s not a nine year old playing doctor with his eight-year-old sister. It’s a sexually mature teen seeking a sexual encounter with a prepubescent. Yuck.
Thank you for your response, Bricker. I still maintain that “inaccurate” is an inappropriate term in this conversation, and here’s my thinking:
A statement of fact has a truth value, whether that truth value has generally been established as apparent to the disinterested observer, or whether it has not. ISTM that there are three distinct categories that can be used to describe the truth value of any assertion: accurate, inaccurate, and of undetermined accuracy. One could arguably usefully substitute proven, disproven, and unproven as descriptors for these categories. In the context of an online debate (as opposed to, say, a jury trial), I do not agree that it is legitimate to conflate the second and third categories, any more than it is to conflate the first and third.
Similarly, our not being in a courtroom (once again, ISTM) suggests that the bar for “baselessness” could be raised a bit higher than “suitable evidence upon which to base a claim,” particularly in the absence of anyone vested with the authority to decide what is and what is not “suitable.” I might not be comfortable with innuendo, but extrapolation from what we know of Gothardite teaching materials, and the degree to which the family has already demonstrated strict adherence to Gothardite principles should move the assessment of some statements from “baseless” to AT LEAST “circumstantial.”
Bricker, you asked why it is “likely” that the Duggars may indulge in victim shaming. Here is why it seems likely to me:
The Duggars use the texts and materials from ATI and Institute in Basic Life Principles. They have, I believe, discussed these materials on their show.
They were speakers at a Gothard conference in 2014, and members of the family have reportedly spoken at several Basic Life Principles seminars. In fact, these seminars are promoted on their website.
After Gothard’s sex scandals, the Duggars did not appear to make much of an effort to distance themselves from the behavior of their buddy, Bill Gothard.
We have now seen two documents from said Institute that appear to put at least some of the blame for the abuse squarely on the victims’ narrow shoulders.
The documents make much of “defrauding” and the importance of “modesty.”
Those are two much used words in the Duggar lexicon;
Michelle actually had the show put black boxes over her KNEES to preserve her modesty in a shot that inadvertently showed them. (see previous article about Duggars and Bill Gothard)
She has referred to the fact that when she was younger, she dressed immodestly and this was defrauding men that saw her dressed that way.
The document also mentions that a victim may be to blame if she leaves the protection of her parents, and this appears to be related to the courtship practices highlighted on the show. A couple that is courting is never alone; family is always with them.
The daughters have said, in their book, how important it is to behave and dress modestly to avoid being in immoral or unsafe situations.
Does this all add up to evidence that would sway a jury? No, of course not. Does it definitively mean that the Duggars are inclined to victim blame? I hope not, for the sake of their girls. Does it make it likely, in my mind, that the family also embraces the sexual abuse counseling tactics promoted through the Institute they are immersed in? I would say yes, it is “likely.”
Your mileage may vary.
ETA: I believe most, if not all, of the linked cites have already been posted in this thread. I merely want to point out that when taken together, it paints a worrisome picture of the family in terms of blame and reactions to sexual abuse.
It’s also creepy that Josh (along with his brothers) basically had control over who his sisters could date and marry.
TLC pulled reruns of the show from their schedule (the latest production season already ended), but haven’t officially cancelled it yet. I wonder who ordered the crews to stop filming; TLC or Duggars. Also what rights does TLC have over the raw footage they already have; do the Duggars still have a say in how it’s edited, or can TLC do whatever they want with it?
I’ve always the real entertainment will be in 10-20 yrs when the kids are adults and start breaking away and selling their own stories.
Let me ask this: do you all think this kind of thing is maybe more common in huge families where the parents just can’t cope and leave the younger ones to be ‘raised’ by the older ones? Throw in religion and homeschooling and I think it’s not unheard of. I ask because there was a huge family living next door where the kids were not allowed to play with normal neighborhood kids. The two oldest, boy and girl, rode together on the school bus sitting next to each other every. single. day. Then there was a younger kid in the family who got some dread disease, taking up the time and attention of the parents, shopping around various doctors, hospitalizations, etc… And then… they just up moved to some culty compound out west, I’d heard. After the 14 year old girl was rumoured to be pregnant…So have any studies been done? It makes sense to me.
The father chooses the person his daughter courts, not her brothers. The father has control over his daughter, until he hands over control to her husband.
Why do you think the brothers have this responsibility?
Here’s an article about their idiotic cult of purity and how it screws over just about everyone. For all we’re told about what great parents they are the truth is that the Duggars are actually really shitty at it. The article makes the excellent point that the Duggars stupid cultish beliefs made a bad situation even worse. Josh and his sisters needed counseling. Instead they got a stinky pile of medieval bullshit that probably only made things much worse.
Well, the brothers do have some influence:
Rule 3: Brothers know best.
All of the Duggar boys have been chaperones to Ben and Jessa, even the younger ones who will go along with them to a coffee shop or out to dinner. Jim Bob and Michelle say there is something special about the way brothers size up a potential suitor. “The brothers can see how they treat mom and dad, or see whether they show the sisters respect,” Michelle says, adding that each brother has given Jessa their opinion of Ben.
But it’s ultimately the father’s call.
It’s a given that the girls were counseled and comforted. I’m a dad and can’t imagine the horror of discovering that a trusted family member touched either of my daughters. Getting my daughters help to cope would be my first concern. Heck, my entire family would need counseling to deal with something this terrible.
Anytime a kid commits a serious crime rehabilitation is in society’s best interest. A 14 year old still has an average of another 66 years to live. Do we want vengeance and throw him/her in a cell to rot for a few years? Then watch them get out and spend those 66 years committing more and more serious crimes? It’s the taxpayers that foots the bill for the court cases and prison terms that person serves. Rehabilitate that 14 year old in prison or some outside court ordered program. Now, you have a productive and lawful member of society.
It was decided in America at least 80 to 100 years ago to focus the Justice System on rehabilitation. Not only to redirect a troubled and wasted life, but it’s in society’s long term, best interest.
I don’t know for certain that Josh hasn’t touched a kid since he was caught and talked to the State police. But, so far there’s no indication that he has done anything but live an upstanding life as an adult.
No it isn’t. That’s the problem. The comforting the girls likely received probably focused on blaming them. But we don’t know because despite the spite the fact that they tell us everything, I’m pretty sure they haven’t told us what exactly they did to help the girls after they were molested by their bro. The parents are smug, incompetent assholes with very little defense for their actions here.