So, you’re the other person in the universe who doesn’t hate Alien[sup]3[/sup]! Nice to meet you!
Likewise!
I mean, yes, it’s flawed, but it’s also visionary (and it’s too damned bad that the producers/studio burned David Fincher so much that he no longer wants anything to do with it, because if he’d been allowed more input, I believe that it might have been on par with the first two), and it’s a damned sight better, as is, than the steaming turd that Whedon shit out next.
My seconds shall call on you in the morning, sirrah!
It should be pointed out that Whedon’s intended delivery of that line was very different from the way it ended up in the film. Singer directed it as an action punchline - a big, slow, dramatic delivery backed by bellowing wind and intense music. “THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENS TO EVERYTHING ELSE!” Pow…?
In contrast, Whedon had written the line as an offhand remark. Essentially, Storm was supposed to say, “What happens to a Toad when it gets hit by lightning?” Then she electrocutes Darth Maul, and adds (with some disappointment and perhaps a bit of a smirk), “Oh. The same thing that happens to everything else.”
Still not a great line, sure. But it works far better than what ended up in the movie.
Heh. I’ve always heard that the fault for “Alien Resurrection” ran the other way - Whedon turned in a script that everyone involved with the previous Alien movies loved (including Weaver, who only signed onto the movie after reading Whedon’s script). But when the original director, Danny Boyle, dropped out, the producers hired Jeunet instead. Jeunet is indeed an excellent director, but he’s known more for dark fantasy and comedy than for sci-fi action extravaganzas. Jeunet ended up dramatically reworking the film (including devising multiple new endings and skewing it towards black comedy).
So the film was “Whedon’s” only in the sense that he wrote the original treatment and script; but the fact that it was hugely reworked suggests to me that most of the blame for the shittiness of the final product can be laid at the feet of Jeunet, as well as a production staff that couldn’t decide what sort of movie they were making. Even a good director can churn out a load of crap when he’s facing (a) an unfamiliar language for the first time, (b) a script that he insists on rewriting, and (c) schizophrenic producers. Double so when the movie is a big-budget blockbuster, over which production companies tend to demand a high degree of control - usually to the chagrin of directors, writers and actors.
Here’s Whedon’s perspective, FWIW:
Yet another reason I loathe the man (from this article):
Ah, I see. Not his fault.
Thanks for reiterating the point I made in my last post. 
Okay - got it. MTCicero= not a fan. Wasn’t sure before. Am now.
Next?
Cute, but X-Men isn’t his fault. He wasn’t the credited writer (and the WGA is very serious about who does and does not get credit) and he wasn’t the director. He had nothing to do with the movie besides writing a shitty line that the movie’s credited screenwriter and director decided to keep.
As for Alien 4, you’re the first guy I’ve ever seen seriously claim that the writer is the one who holds all the power in the moviemaking process.
We’re you not even reading what Whedon himself said? They didn’t change a word of what he’d written. And my problem with the movie was not the acting quality, was not the look of the film, or the costume choices, or the composition of the shots. My problem was with the story, the dialogue, which, IIRC, is the responsibility of… um, hold on… don’t tell me… oh! I remember! The screenwriter.
But like Joss said, it’s not his fault, though. Correct?
Thanks, Dad.
Actually, no. In a Hollywood movie, once the screenwriter submits his script, the director has full control over how that script is produced. For example, you have a problem with the alien-human hybrid. But Whedon had nothing to do with that, it was entirely the creation of the special effects team and the… wait for it… director.
And even in the Whedon quote you’ve given us, he says they changed some things. But doesn’t elaborate on exactly what things.
It seems they didn’t change all that much, again, according to the man himself.
Look, I do know enough about movies and how they’re made to know that the director (or the producers, or the film company) almost always has the final say, and that the screenwriter is usually low man on the totem pole. But Whedon seems to have a real problem accepting the fact that he must shoulder some of the blame, too. To hear him tell it, the blame for any project that he’s been a part of’s shittiness is practically anyone’s but his. I mean, come on, even Uwe Boll, who inarguably makes some supremely shitty movies, doesn’t go around blaming the actors, or the DP, or the caterers. But Joss is too much of a douchebag, apparently, to accept any measure of blame for his bombs (and let us not forget that they are many).
… Yeah… sorry to interrupt the dick waving.
Don’t judge Whedon the director because of some script work he did, judge him for his directing work. Firefly, Serenity, the episode of the Office that he did, etc etc.
He’s a write with an ear for dialogue buta writer who isn’t also the director has no say in how his written words are said.
I think Favreau would have done a better job with the Avengers but Whedon knows how to handle ensembles. My hope is that he is self-aware enough not to shoe-horn his pets into the cast. The Avengers don’t have a kickass warrior woman in any iconic line-up. If Serenity girl or Faith the Vampire Slayer show up in anything other than a cameo I gurantee you them movie is not going to rise to anything other than ‘passable.’
Anytime.
Joss has had his hand in some turkeys, bombs, etc. And he has been central to some wonderful successes - IMHO and the opinion of a lot of others - YMMV. Clearly this speaks to all the moving parts that go into getting a movie made.
You don’t like him - got it. I like the fact that he is known for dialogue, certain types of plot twists/reversals and the craft of keeping a plot moving along. I can see where those particular capabilities could lend themselves to a fun, cool Avengers. Could it still be screwed up - either because Whedon bobbles it, or the moving parts don’t come together well? Sure. But I see the possibilities.
If you want to start an I Hate Joss thread - go for it; you will have plenty of folks right beside you. But this is supposed to be a Yay Joss is Involved thread - quit threadshitting and hijacking.
…Uwe Boll makes EXACTLY the kind of movies he wants to make. In his estimation he makes effective movies. Why would he blame anyone? His movies succeed at their goals-- in his mind.
I have. I’ve watched most of the first season of Buffy. I kept waiting for it to get as good as I’d been lead to believe it was, but it never, ever did. I didn’t care one whit about any of the characters, and I was repeatedly denied the pleasure of losing myself in the story because Whedon’s self-consciously “snappy” dialogue kept getting in the way. Ditto for Firefly, for the same reasons. Hell, I even, after all of this, tried to get into Astonishing X-Men, because I love the X-Men so, and I couldn’t, and for the same confounding reasons.
Fair enough. I’ll take my ball of desperation and disgust and go elsewhere. And who knows? He may actually end up putting out a really good, fun movie. I certainly would like him to, considering how much I love the Avengers. It’s just that I’m a pessimist, and I don’t see that happening, so I can’t help but hope he gets Wonder Woman’d off of this project, too.
No, no… Natty Bumppo.
I’m dismayed.
I like Joss Whedon. I liked Buffy, *Angel *and *Dollhouse *(*Firefly *never did anything for me), but Whedon has a pretty distinctive voice and I don’t think it’s at all appropriate to a big, dumb action movie like I hope *Avengers *will be. Ideally, I’d love to have a movie Avengers be basically Millar’s The Ultimates directed by whoever did Iron Man.
I’d personally hate it if they went with an Ultimates bent to the store. All those characters were dicks. Cap’s a dick. Iron Mans’ a dick. Hulk is a rapey dick. Pym’s a dick. Hawkeye’s a crazy dick.