Right, Faust sold his sould or whatever to the devil for something in return. Yeah, it seems that the story has been re-worked and re-told by myriad intrepeters (sp?) of our moral universe. But this I cannot guess:
What the hell does “Faustian” mean?!
Does it specifically mean dealing with the devil? Does it mean (unwittingly?) making a trade where the unintended effects are more harmful to the actor than the intended benefits? Does it simply mean doing something that another person finds immoral?
Please explain this word to me and what it means both literally, and in its various (but generally valid) nuances.
js_the devil went down to rural Michigan_africanus
A classic example would be Wernher von Braun. We was a rocket enthusiast from the earliest days, member of the “Spaceflight Society” and conducting experiments at a time when general interest in the technology was low. Later, when the nazis rose to power he saw his chance to fullfil his dreams and became the head of a project that was comparable to the manhattan project in relation to the German economy. then this young man, apparently without much of a political agenda, commanded the creation of the “miracle weapons” for nazi world domination, using slave labour and of course killing enemy civillians. He also joined the SS when it became convenient. However all this allowed him to build the most advanced rockets in the world and he came a large step closer to his goal of space travel.
Even if he was only intersted in the technical aspects, he was willing to pay any price for his project, including the proverbial contract with the devil.
As soon as the war was over, he switched sides and worked where he found the best opportunities then.
Hmm, I have a very different take. I see a ‘faustian’ arrangement merely as one that gives great benefits in return for horrible later consequences. No moral implications at all.
(I’m guessing nobody in this thread has bothered going to dictionary.com yet… and I’m not going to be the first!)
It seemed like the definition had no real meaning, other than being an excues for ad hominems: Not only are you immoral for what you’ve done, you’re a hypocrite for knowingly being so. But you (“you” as in a generic person because I’m too lazy to work it using “one”) may not have done anything immoral! If you don’t think that blowing people with a nuclear reaction is any more immoral than blowing them up with a chemical reaction, and if you don’t think that designing weapons for your country is immoral, then working on an atomic-bomb project isn’t a Faustian bargain.
The bigger issue I had was that the definition didn’t fit my passive understanding at all. For me, the, oh let’s say, defining tale of soul-selling is the Twilight Zone where the guy sells his soul for eternal life. But when he’s having fun and wants to jump out of a building, his wife doesn’t comprehend the situation and in the struggle she falls and not he. In the end, he gets sentenced to life in prison for first-degree murder.
Every instance of wishes or soul selling that I can recall involves the person being seriously bit in the ass by her own desires. But that’s not what a Faustian bargain is at all, is it?! We should send out a memo.
I’d hoped the OED (fount of all linguistic knowledge) would help, but it doesn’t. The dictionary definition already given is probably reasonable (power or wealth bought at the cost of spiritual coin) but I think, idiomatically, “Faustian bargain” goes somewhat farther.
In most tellings of the Faust legend, what Doctor Faustus bought turned out to be less satisfying than he had imagined it; and what he lost was of incalculable value. That would be the point, I think. “Unintended consequences” taken to a horrible extreme. As one of my favorite authors (Lois McMaster Bujold) puts it: “the one thing you cannot trade for your heart’s desire is your heart.”
I’m not sure either immorality or hypocrisy is at the center of the idiom; though there’s certainly an implication that the person making a “Faustian bargain” ought to know they are playing with fire. (As it were…) It’s more a matter of catastrophic misjudgment. In the origins of the phrase, “spiritual coin” would certainly be an apt way of putting this.
BTW, my understanding of the word is tinted by having studied Marlowe’s Dr Faustus (exclusively: no other versions of the legend), both at A-level and for my degree.
In précis: Dr Faustus sells his soul in return for power, wealth, women, wine, and song. He has a great time for 24 years, and then gets fucked over by Mephistopholes and is cast into Hell. End of story.
There may be a moral aspect to it in a non-secular context, but this never really occurred to me, and nor was it even touched upon by my tutors.
It’s a literary metaphor, and both uses described above are common and are widely understood. If someone asked you what Rabelasian meant, or Dostoevskiian, there could be a variety of answers, most of which could be acceptable.
There is no single ‘definitive’ meaning. The Faust story was dramatised and popularised by Goethe and then by Marlowe, but it can serve as an excellent metaphor for a range of situations, which is why the phrase has a range of related meanings and usages.
It depends what kind of emphasis the writer or speaker intends. Some people use ‘Faustian pact’ to illustrate foolishness, entering into a bargain where you think you’re getting a good deal but in fact it’s a terrible one. Others focus on the moral aspect, trying to obtain a short-term or immediate illicit (and immoral) advantage by sacrificing something far more valuable, and the lack of integrity which this indicates.
A more recent usage which has gained some currency refers to someone or something’s otherwise inexplicable success (in the eyes of the commentator). Many acidic or critical references to popular actors, for example, will suggest that they must have sold their soul to the devil in return for their success and wealth, because there’s no other possible explanation.
Ah, yes. I would have had one of those at the bar last week if my soul were actually worth buying. (Either that, or the running commentary in one’s head is not legally binding…)
BTW, Burroughs’s take on the Faustian bargain is my favorite. Not a complete quote, for copywrite & all, but here is the meat of it, IMO:
You know, I wrote a story like that a long time ago, except that the guy cheesed off somebody in the Mob and they gave him concrete overshoes and a trip to “sleep with the fishes.” He’s very bored now.
RR
I believe I’ve heard Machievellian used to describe a situation in which someone is using the ends to justify the means. Is this an official definition?
Machievellian doesn’t denote a philosophical view like “the ends justify the means,” it’s more of an intellectual and personality trait. It’s commonly used to mean something like “cold and calculating.” It’s also used to mean “master strategist” with a hint of (sometimes) grudging admiration and (usually) distrust; usually applied to people in political or organizational situations. As it would pertain to the historical Machievelli, the “master strategist” meaning would be more accurate.